The BEFORE and the AFTER of being born-again

[gr8grace]

Well, IMO, this describes ONLY the actual ELECT who make it through to the end ...

“And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God,
to those who are the called according to His purpose.
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined …
whom He predestined, these He also called;
whom He called, these He also justified;
and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” (Romans 8:28-30)

IMO, God’s elect are ...
foreknown >> predestined (chosen) >> called >> justified >> glorified

Elsewhere, we've been going through a LONG analysis of Hebrews 6:4-6
and the conclusion is ...
A BORN-AGAIN PERSON CAN FALL AWAY AND NOT BE SAVED.
I.E. he/she never was a part of the elect in Romans 8:29-30!

And, of course, this makes sense of and explains
... all of those serious warnings to the churches!

This is just another one of those important spiritual Truths,
which are "somewhat hidden" in the NT ... I have a list of about 7 so far.

This is flawed from the get go. "called" and "purpose" are the key words.

CALLED is kletos.....invited, an invitation.

PURPOSE is Prothesis....A setting forth, a intention,a proposal, to place before, to exhibit something. And it is in the Middle voice meaning God has set forth a proposal that the subject can choose to take. on top of all this it is directly related to the "shewbread" in the temple.

This is the bread which came down out of heaven: not as the fathers ate, and died; he that eateth this bread shall live for ever. John 6:58

Predestination is proorizo.....And it is a predesigned PLAN that God has for every believer. It is not predestination for salvation.

Gods purpose is Christ. Christ is Gods shewbread and purpose and he has Called(invited) everyone according to his purpose. And the middle voice says that some will chose not to eat His shewbread. But if we do eat He Has a predesigned plan for everyone who eats of His shewbread.

His foreknowledge in no way determines if the subject will or will not eat of the shewbread

It is also funny that Heb 6:4-6 is mentioned. With bible Doctrine in the soul one has to read that with open eyes and one will see that it is doing just the opposite of teaching conditional security. They are some of the STRONGEST words in the Bible that teach ETERNAL SECURITY for the believer. God is NOT going to "UNSAVE" any believer, because it would be Crucifying His Son AGAIN.

 

[Agape]

CALLED is kletos.....invited, an invitation.

these whom he called, He also justified (Romans 8:30)
It is an effectual call, not an invitation.
2 Timothy 1:9 "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,"

Predestination is proorizo.....And it is a predesigned PLAN that God has for every believer. It is not predestination for salvation.

What do you mean it is not predestination for salvation?

proorizo = determine beforehand, ordain, appoint before, mark out before.

God in His sovereignty predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified (Romans 8:29-30).

Ephesians 1:5,11 "having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,; 11 in Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

 

[John Zain]

OK you still have not clearly stated your doctrine in a way that I can understand it for sure to my understanding it is still ambiguous. So... 1. Do you believe in irresistible grace?
Please do not quote scripture to answer the question, a simple yes or no is what is needed here.

Re: those whom God elected before the foundation of the world ... YES.

(IMO, these are the elect spoken of in Romans 8:29-30.)

 

[John Zain]

Kruger, What do you mean it is not predestination for salvation?

Don't get too excited ... I'll explain it for you ...
el Krugo has one purpose in life ... to criticize everything I say.

Germans have this favorite game of theirs ...
You take one side of an argument, and I'll take the other side.
Then after 1/2 hour, we'll switch and go at it again.
Gee, what fun!

 

[Deborah13]

Re: those whom God elected before the foundation of the world ... YES.

(IMO, these are the elect spoken of in Romans 8:29-30.)

Ok thank you for the direct answer.

 

[Deborah13]

So you do not have the free will to reject salvation by grace but you do have free will to later reject the irresistable grace and faith.

 

[Deborah13]

It seems to me that God called the nation of Israel as just that a nation to be His chosen people. It was up to them as individuals to choose to have a relationship with God, such as David. Will every Jew be saved because they are His chosen people?

Then God called the Gentiles (everyone else) to also be His chosen people (adopted in). It is up to us as individuals to choose to have a relationship with God just like David. Will every Gentile be saved because they are called to sonship through adoption?

Who are His elect the ones that responded to the call, and yes the GK says "invitation" if you say it is effectual than please provide scripture.

 

[John Zain]

So you do not have the free will to reject salvation by grace
but you do have free will to later reject the irresistable grace and faith.

Who is "you"?
The elect are special (for whatever reasons exactly).
The Lord KNOWS who will go along with His whole entire Plan of Salvation.
Dese are the elect.

Who's "faith" are you talking about? Jesus faith or ours?
Some can reject their own "faith"?

Plus ... the whole point of this exercise is to make it clear that it is possible for some
to accept grace in the beginning and then to reject it later ... fall away and etc.

 

[Deborah13]

Who is "you"?
The elect are special (for whatever reasons exactly).
The Lord KNOWS who will go along with His whole entire Plan of Salvation.
Dese are the elect.

Who's "faith" are you talking about? Jesus faith or ours?
Some can reject their own "faith"?

Plus ... the whole point of this exercise is to make it clear that it is possible for some
to accept grace in the beginning and then to reject it later ... fall away and etc.

Sorry for not being clear. "you" as in third person much like says "we" which it would include myself. "you" as in any person.

"faith" as in Eph. 2:8-9 and about any other time "faith" is used in the Bible, for answered prayer of any kind.

 

[gr8grace]

these whom he called, He also justified (Romans 8:30)
It is an effectual call, not an invitation.
2 Timothy 1:9 "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,"




What do you mean it is not predestination for salvation?

proorizo = determine beforehand, ordain, appoint before, mark out before.

God in His sovereignty predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified (Romans 8:29-30).

Ephesians 1:5,11 "having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,; 11 in Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Read it close Agape, the first "called" is an invitation. the Second "called" is someone who took the invitation. The plan is predesigned for someone who ate the purpose of God (Christ as the shewbread)

Being conformed to the image of the Son is the predestination in Rom 8:28-30

 

[gr8grace]

Don't get too excited ... I'll explain it for you ...
el Krugo has one purpose in life ... to criticize everything I say.

Germans have this favorite game of theirs ...
You take one side of an argument, and I'll take the other side.
Then after 1/2 hour, we'll switch and go at it again.
Gee, what fun!

Grace criticizes everything you say so far. Grace has not seen all you have to say yet. It is very interesting that you will not respond to a MALE or any of my posts. It is possible that you will respond to this post because it takes the focus off the posts that absolutely refuted your false Doctrines.

Lord willing I will Never Switch and Lord willing He will soften your heart So you can live in His Grace.

 

[reba]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

It is a violation to misquote or misrepresent another member.

Any personal problems with another member, then deal with it through private messages. No harassing members via PM. No public posting of PMs. Publicly announcing who is on a member's Ignore list is prohibited.
Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defence of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.
You all agreed to abide by the ToS when you signed in.... Please guys respect this site.

A general warning

 

[reba]

Some debate is fine even good.... but state your thoughts and views and leave the 'hearing' to God.

 

[John Zain]

It is possible that you will respond to this post because it takes the focus off
the posts that absolutely refuted your false Doctrines.

The main reason for these doctrines (questions really),
which I have presented lately, is due to ...
the dozens of serious warnings written to the churches,
and all of Jesus' "hard sayings" warnings in the gospels.

THE FLOOR IS YOURS ...

Why are all of these warnings in the NT?

 

[Deborah13]

The main reason for these doctrines (questions really),
which I have presented lately, is due to ...
the dozens of serious warnings written to the churches,
and all of Jesus' "hard sayings" warnings in the gospels.

THE FLOOR IS YOURS ...

Why are all of these warnings in the NT?

Wasn't the other thread you started about that and we had started going through the scriptures you wanted to address and then everyone must have stopped posting to that one??
I thought that one was moving along well. You were giving scriptures and some were responding to their beliefs on each scripture. Can't just lump them all together in order to address who they were addressed to and why. Not all are addressed to believers, gentiles, etc. So where is that thread? I try to find it.

 

[gr8grace]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

It is a violation to misquote or misrepresent another member.

Any personal problems with another member, then deal with it through private messages. No harassing members via PM. No public posting of PMs. Publicly announcing who is on a member's Ignore list is prohibited.
Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defence of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.
You all agreed to abide by the ToS when you signed in.... Please guys respect this site.

A general warning

Why does this warning come after what I post? At 12:50 He took My Personal NAME and used it for derogatory purposes and Called me "German" . And I just stated facts in love and wish that He could see Grace. Is this A Christian site? or is it a Hidden Co-exist site? I will know for positive if this post is not deleted.

 

[gr8grace]

The main reason for these doctrines (questions really),
which I have presented lately, is due to ...
the dozens of serious warnings written to the churches,
and all of Jesus' "hard sayings" warnings in the gospels.

THE FLOOR IS YOURS ...

Why are all of these warnings in the NT?

John,

We have went through some of these warnings and there was no response to the scriptures that we were tackling.

 

[Deborah13]

John,

We have went through some of these warnings and there was no response to the scriptures that we were tackling.

Yep that was my point. I found the other thread and gave it a bump. Maybe there will be a response. It seemed like when some responded to the scriptures this thread showed up in it's place.????

 

[gr8grace]

Yep that was my point. I found the other thread and gave it a bump. Maybe there will be a response. It seemed like when some responded to the scriptures this thread showed up in it's place.????

I watch what you say a lot Deb ,you keep it together a lot better than I do! I have a hard time staying in Grace and Keeping my Cool. You do a fantastic job.

 

[Agape]

Read it close Agape, the first "called" is an invitation. the Second "called" is someone who took the invitation. The plan is predesigned for someone who ate the purpose of God (Christ as the shewbread)

Being conformed to the image of the Son is the predestination in Rom 8:28-30

What's first and second "called"? You mean scriptures I quoted?