End Times Confusing - Preterism

[Deborah13]

Deborah 13 (response to post 287)

Do you agree?

Actually I was thanking you for including the response post #. Sorry.
But I will look at 273

 

[jasoncran]

Eugene, when the future whore of Babylon comes per you doctrine and slays the apostles then I will believe your doctrine.

you do take that verse literally? I do. when were the apostles alive?

Sorry brother, I didn't understand your point here.To start with, which verse? Matthew 24:21 or Revelation 9:15 I think you're referring to? Jesus gave both of them. Wasn't there two apostles that went past 70 AD? And then I care less who believes my doctrine; my salvation is not determined in me being deceived by man's theology. I have no idea what you're saying concerning the whore of Babylon killing the apostles in the future.

man's theology?

18 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

note verse 20. whom ordered the deaths of the apostles? john was persecuted by both rome and the jews. if you are going to push that seven trib idea then where are the modern apostles? whom are they? since this didn't happen yet.

Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

actually only one. john. and well the idea I espouse on eschatology isn't full preterism. its partial preteristism and amil.

 

[reba]

[MENTION=90512]Eugene[/MENTION], a thought....
Rom_1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Both uses of the word world are 2889 (Strongs) Many folks say that the 'world' in Romans 1:8 means the world known to them . Couldn't that also be true for Mat 24:21?

 

[Hope of glory]

JLB (reply to post 299)

If I answer these 2 questions (which i will), will you deal with my arguement contrasting Math and Luke which I have been asking you to deal with for days?

 

[Hope of glory]

Deborah13

Here is my argument in a nutshell.

Math.24:15 references the AOD and Math.24:30 references the coming of Jesus in the clouds, and therefore both events are referenced in the same discourse.
In Math.24:34 Jesus says "this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled". "All these things" refers to everything Jesus said in his discourse up to that point (v34).
Therefore, according to Matthew, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the AOD.

Luke 21:20-22 references the destruction of Jerusalem and Luke 21:27 references the coming of Jesus in the clouds, and therefore both events are referenced in the same
discourse. In Luke 21:32 Jesus says "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away until all be fulfilled". "All" refers to everything Jesus said in his discourse up to that point (v32). Therefore, according to Luke, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the destruction of Jerusalem.

Now let's combine both accounts of the same discourse for the fullest
understanding:

Therefore, according to Luke and Matthew, the generation to see Jesus coming in the clouds would also see the AOD and the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem.

There is no possible grammatical, contextual, or logical way you can get around this conclusion.

There are only 2 explanations then:

1. Jesus' second coming already took place in 70ad and full preterism is correct.
This is obviously false, since we have no glorified body and Jesus (the man) is not on earth.

2. When Jesus spoke of his "coming in the clouds" he was not making reference to his second coming.
This is obviously the truth. I have already thoroughly shown by scripture that the "coming in the clouds" was a combination of OT scripture references such as Dan.7:13 Isa.19:1 Ezek.3:30 Joel 2:1-2 which Jesus used to warn his disciples
of the coming judgment and to explain that Jerusalems destruction meant his vindication as rightful King of Israel.

Deborah13, may the Lord guide you into all truth, blessings
Hope of glory

 

[Eugene]

Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

I got you now. Since God's people in Revelation 18:4 are told to come out of her, wouldn't she be a church? Held responsible for the death of the apostles, which would it be? Revelation Chapters Two and Three describe the judgment of them; good or bad. Supposedly what church claims to be the church of the apostles? Providing even one apostle lived past 70 AD, seemingly this would not apply to them at that time, but at a later time. We do read of Thyatira in Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Just some thoughts to toss around.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Hope of glory]

JLB (reply to post 299)

You asked me
"Do you believe that the destruction of the temple was Jesus Coming in Judgement, as described in Matthew 24:30. Yes or No.
Answer: Yes his "coming in judgment" not his second coming. In verse 34 Jesus said that this event (v30) would be fulfilled before "that generation" passed away. Since Jesus has not returned and that generation is dead, this is the only way I can take Math.24:30. Otherwise, I make my King a liar.

You asked me " Do you believe the great tribulation was the destruction of the
city and sanctuary in 70 AD? Yes or No."

Answer: Yes.
In Math.24:21 it says "for then shall be great tribulation....
In verse 34 Jesus said "that generation" would nit pass away until the great tribulation was fulfilled.
To believe otherwise is to again make Jesus a liar.

I have also said this before but it's worth stating again.
JESUS used the phrase "this generation" 12 times outside the 3 discourses and it always referred to his contemporary generation. Why when we get to these discourses do we interpret it so out of context and unnatural.

Just so you know, I choose to interpret "portions" of the book of the revelation from Jesus' plain words, not interpret Jesus' plain words with the highly symbolic and allegorical language of the book of the revelation.

JLB, please now respond to my post 292. I'm tired of repeating myself my friend.
My arguement is based on the same hermeneutic you have used to interpret Math.24. I have applied it to Luke 21 and then actually combined the truth of both Math.24 and Luke.21 to get the fullest understanding of what Jesus said.

 

[reba]

Where is the scripture for (the great tribulation?) It aint in KJ

 

[Hope of glory]

Reba (reply to post 308)
It actually says "great tribulation",... "the" is not there
Actually the phrase "the great tribulation" does not exist in scripture.
"great tribulation" is only used 3 times math24:21 rev.2:22 rev.7:14

Since everyone says "(the) great tribulation", so did I. I guess it's a habit of tradition that we all need to lose.
Thanks, good correction.

 

[reba]

Cant find antichrist in The Revelation either!

 

[Deborah13]

Cant find antichrist in The Revelation either!

antichrist = 4 times in 1 John, 1 time in 2 John
antichrists = 1 time in 1 John

Described as anyone who denies Jesus. It is never spoken of as one man, beast, devil, satan. Just as people. Oh and one time as the "spirit of antichrist" being "every spirit that does not confess that Jesus came in the flesh".

 

[Deborah13]

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Matthew 24
34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Just guessing ??

 

[Eugene]

[MENTION=90512]Eugene[/MENTION], a thought....
Rom_1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Both uses of the word world are 2889 (Strongs) Many folks say that the 'world' in Romans 1:8 means the world known to them . Couldn't that also be true for Mat 24:21?

[MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION] Very possible though due to the amount of devastation; a third part of men in Revelation 9:15 killed, those only 1,100,000 reported by Josephus as killed in 70 AD just don't add up. unno

 

[Deborah13]

Here is my argument in a nutshell.

Your argument for your 'historical' view is a good one and does lead to one of your two conclusions.
However, what you are dealing with here is me and some others with a 'futurist' view/s.
So for me it is a matter of being completely convinced of not just this scripture dealing with the destruction of Jerusalem but all the rest fitting as well.
If the rest does not fit then this cannot be correct either.

I must say this scripture in Luke 21:20
.....and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
[MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION] mentioned this verse too, I believe.
If this scripture is referring to the 70AD time period it answers something that has always not sat quite right with me. Surely the age of grace continues but that for 2000 yrs or so the Jews have been slumbering so that the Gentiles should be brought in, just didn't make sense to me. Paul says there is no Jew or Gentile. Surely over this time the Jews have had equal opportunity to accept the Jesus and His new covenant. So why would it be the time of the Gentiles?
If the 40 yrs. or so between the cross and the destruction of the temple is a time for the changing from old to new for the Jews then it would seem this same time would be sufficient for the Gentiles to change from paganism to Christianity.

 

[JLB]

"Do you believe that the destruction of the temple was Jesus Coming in Judgement, as described in Matthew 24:30. Yes or No. Answer: Yes his "coming in judgment" not his second coming.

You asked me " Do you believe the great tribulation was the destruction of the city and sanctuary in 70 AD? Yes or No." Answer: Yes.

Well you have a bit of a problem then.

Let me explain -

If you believe the great tribulation was the destruction of the city and sanctuary and you believe the destruction of the city and sanctuary was Jesus coming as described in Matthew 24:30, then your problem is verse 29 which states -

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

You see it's after the tribulation of those days, we have a time period whereby the sun, moon and stars and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken.



So it could be several weeks, even as some have said based on Daniel up to 60 days after the tribulation of those days before Jesus returns.

So you have a choice -

You can either believe the great tribulation of those days is the destruction of the city and sanctuary,

or

You can believe the destruction of the city and sanctuary is Jesus coming as Matthew 24:30 describes, which says -

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

But you can't believe both His coming and the gret tribulation refer to the temple destruction.

Because it's after the tribulation of those days...


JLB

 

[Hope of glory]

JLB (reply to post 315)

There is no problem my friend, except that you still think I mean that Jesus' "coming in the clouds" In Math.24 was a literal and natural event.

The "tribulation of those days" refers to the time of 67-70ad culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem.
Verse 29 "immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heaven shall be shaken.

In Gen.37:9-10 we are told that the nation of Israel are the sun, moon, and stars...the light of the world.
In OT scriptures such as Isa.13:10 the same language concerning the sun moon and stars are used to prophesy and forewarn of coming judgment.

It was not until after the destruction of Jerusalem that the Jews would finally understand that they as a nation (sun moon and stars) had been cast into "outer darkness" no more
to be the light of the world. It would be at this time that they would fully realize that this
was the judgment of God.

V30 "then shall appear the SIGN of the Son of man in heaven, and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It was not until after Jerusalems destruction that the SIGN of the Son of man in heaven would appear. That is, Jerusalems destruction was the SIGN that Jesus was truly in the
heavens seated as vindicated King. It was then that they would "see" (perceive and
understand) the Son of man coming in the clouds. That is, they would now see that Jesus had come upon them as a swift judge and a thief in the night, and that Jesus had
received his kingdom in power and glory.

Again, the great tribulation culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem

The destruction of the temple was the sign they Jesus had come to them in judgment by the hands of the Romans.

The confusion vanishes when you understand that Jesus' "coming in the clouds" is not an event, but it is the revelation of what had already occurred, which is expressed in colorful OT apocalyptic and prophetic language.

Sorry, if I wasn't clear enough before, but I have already expressed these thoughts in previous posts.

I have answered your questions and responded to clear any confusion on where I stand concerning the tribulation and his coming. Now it is your turn to address my post 305. The burden is upon you to prove my argument faulty. If you can, we continue, if you cannot than my doctrine is correct, and Jesus' words are validated.

 

[JLB]

The "tribulation of those days" refers to the time of 67-70ad culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem. Verse 29 "immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heaven shall be shaken.

Remember, you are the one that said The destruction of the temple was Jesus coming, "in Judgement" as described in Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

According to Matthew 24, which you said we are staying in the Matthew 24 and its context.

Math.24:1-3 are all about the temple and it's destruction and set the entire context of the Math.24 discourse. Even a simple glance reveals this truth.

These are necessary grammatical and contextual questions that anyone seeking the truth of Math.24 would naturally ask. The answers to these questions form the foundational context in which the discourse was spoken. Anyone, especially any student of the word would agree with me on this.
If your doctrine is sound regarding Math.24 it will stand the testing of these questions, if it is not, it will be revealed.

You said that the context Matthew 24 is all about the temple and its destruction.

Even though the disciples asked, what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age.

If the temple was destroyed during the great tribulation, as you said, by the time Matthew 24:30 had occurred, the temple and city had already been destroyed.

So from the language of Matthew 24, we see that at least 1 of your theory's can't possibly be true.

So now you get to choose, which event caused the destruction of the temple, the great tribulation or the coming of the Son of Man, "in judgement".

You are also trying to insinuate that the sun,moon and stars are somehow "symbolic", when the language of Luke 21 states -And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken.

Why would something "symbolic" like the sun and moon event, cause the such drastic tidal shifts that the seas and the waves roar in such a way that it causes men to have a heart attack just seeing what is coming upon the earth.

Don't you think that the sun and moon events would cause great tidal shifts that would put the sea and the waves in an uproar.

Why would the nations of the world be in distress over a "symbolic" event that was not a natural event?

You know Hope, I think you are wise enough to see that the language here in Luke is saying something that maybe you haven't considered.



JLB

 

[Hope of glory]

JLB (reply to post 315)

You said: "If the temple was destroyed during the great tribulation, as you said, by the time Matthew 24:30 had occurred, the temple and city had already been destroyed"

I said:
"The destruction of the temple was the sign they Jesus had come to them in judgment by the hands of the Romans.
The confusion vanishes when you understand that Jesus' "coming in the clouds" is not an event, but it is the revelation of what had already occurred, which is expressed in colorful OT apocalyptic and prophetic language.

Jesus "coming in the clouds" was not a literal event, he did not literally come in the clouds.

You said:
"So now you get to choose, which event caused the destruction of the temple, the great tribulation or the coming of the Son of Man, "in judgement".

I said:
"Jesus' coming in the clouds was not an event"
"Again, the great tribulation culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem"
"The destruction of the temple was the sign that Jesus had come to them in judgment by the hands of the Romans.
"The confusion vanishes when you understand that Jesus' "coming in the clouds" is not an event, but it is the revelation of what had already occurred, which is expressed in colorful OT apocalyptic and prophetic language"

As for you "literalness" of Luke.21:25 keep it.
I have no problem with natural "signs" occurring in the sun moon and stars.
I also have no problem with sun moon and stars being symbolical language in Matthew and the same being the literal cosmos in Luke.
As I said before, each account of this discourse does not contradict eachother, but rather compliments eachother and adds to the overall understanding. There have always been "signs" in the cosmos and the waves have always "roared".
Your argument has not proven anything, nor proved mine wrong.

It is now your turn to address my post 305. The burden is upon you to prove my argument faulty. If you can, we continue, if you cannot than my doctrine is correct, and Jesus' words are validated.
If you do not address post 305 than it is obvious you do not want to deal with the truth, and I will be finished with this thread. However, my argument will still stand untouched, my doctrine true, and Jesus' "literal words" if Math.24:34 will have been validated.
Stop avoiding my argument please, you have been running for days, it is time to deal with this.

Thank you
Hope of glory

 

[Deborah13]

man's theology?

What do you say about a prophecy being fulfilled more than once. In case, 70 AD and in the future again?
Is there any Biblical reasoning behind this?

 

[endtimesdeut32/70AD]

Keep up the Good work Hope Of Glory.


I've just noticed that the early part of Isaiah 29 ( and similar descriptions in earlier chapters) applies to Jerusalem of the mosaic covt [Ariel] at the time of Christ. Christ quoted from later in Is 29 when he spoke of their honoring the doctrines of men over the truth of God.

Re the sign of the son of man and "then". Then (in this passage) is most often the greek word meaning "at that time" and not the one for "afterwards". If spoken in parallel with the other "thens" it could simply mean that it (the sign) would occur in the same time frame as the other things mentioned. Some understand that the 'sign' of the son (servant) of all mankind was a star that formed the shape of a sword and that hung over jerusalem and the temple preceding the desolation. Perhaps this would have been a play on and associated with Deut 32:41,42.

BUT, the desolated city was also a "sign"and message as Is 29 brings out.

To believe in the person, authority, laws, freedoms and ordinances of the estabished everlasting covt of life ends the effectiveness and then temporary purposes of the ordinances , principles, foundatiobs and elenents of the mosaic covt and its ritualisns.