T.U.L.I.P. - Total Depravity

JLB said:

In this thread I was hoping to discuss what TULIP, means to atpollard and to
OzSpen, from their perspective.


Starting with T which stands for Total Depravity.


Anyone else who has understanding of this doctrine is free to share.


I hope to see scripture used to reinforce each person’s belief.


What does Total Depravity mean?


I will start separate threads about each letter, so we can focus on each subject from each letter.


wondering and PeterJens - I hoping to hear from you guys as well.


I know wondering started one on Perseverance of the Saints.

I was hoping to have a complete TULIP set of threads.


JLB

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JLB said:

In this thread I was hoping to discuss what TULIP, means to atpollard and to
OzSpen, from their perspective.


Starting with T which stands for Total Depravity.


Anyone else who has understanding of this doctrine is free to share.


I hope to see scripture used to reinforce each person’s belief.


What does Total Depravity mean?


I will start separate threads about each letter, so we can focus on each subject from each letter.


wondering and PeterJens - I hoping to hear from you guys as well.


I know wondering started one on Perseverance of the Saints.

I was hoping to have a complete TULIP set of threads.






JLB

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wondering said:

For instance, the discussion will be about Total Depravity but free will is going to come into the discussion at some point.

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PeterJens said:

Total depravity to me puts the emphasis in the wrong place.
Man has a heart of love, which is killed by isolation and hurt from God.
Taking that man creates a defence from pain and disappointment models what people experience as they grow. It creates blindness to sin and hurt one inflicts on others, which start a spiral of destruction and things fall apart.

Total depravity seems to deny the heart of man have a need and being open to understand the hope Jesus is delivering through the cross and His word.

Rebellion against God without forgiveness and hope, means God will always be our enemy and one we cannot trust. What I found interesting in my life is why I agreed with Gods law, and saw His heart of love throughout scripture. How could a totally deprived heart do this?

Our lostness, our sense of being unable to bridge the gap is a spiritual reality.
Knowing love in Christ, bridges the gap, and transforms us from a lost sinner into a saved saint, enabled to be pure and holy, seems an essential step of faith to realise the promise in Christ.

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JLB said:

ok I understand.

I just wanted to observe and ask questions about each category of the TULIP doctrine.


Hoping to try and keep each topic of the acronym separate in order to the subject on tract, as much as possible.


I really wanted to hear from atpollard since he is more a Reformed Theology person.


And OzSpen is kinda on the other side.

They both seem to be very knowledgeable about it.




JLB

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JLB said:

In this thread I was hoping to discuss what TULIP, means to atpollard and to
OzSpen, from their perspective.

Starting with T which stands for Total Depravity.

Anyone else who has understanding of this doctrine is free to share.

I hope to see scripture used to reinforce each person’s belief.

What does Total Depravity mean?

I will start separate threads about each letter, so we can focus on each subject from each letter.


wondering and PeterJens - I hoping to hear from you guys as well.


I know wondering started one on Perseverance of the Saints.

I was hoping to have a complete TULIP set of threads.

JLB

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OzSpen said:

There is no point in discussing this, JLB, as you don't want us to use outside sources. Yet, you do it with Soteriology and the term Bible.

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OzSpen said:

There is no point in discussing this, JLB, as you don't want us to use outside sources. Yet, you do it with Soteriology and the term Bible.

Click to expand...

atpollard said:

Aw, come on. You and I are the “Token Calvinists” in “Arminianland” ... consider it an extra challenge.

(besides, we have the advantage of actually being RIGHT about this.) 2

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Susannah said:

I am going to pass on this one . . . enjoy yourselves. LOL ?

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wondering said:

Agreed.
Will keep as separate as possible.

I find atpollard to be very intelligent and easy to speak to.
OzSpen is definitely on the other side, and knows theology...

This is a good idea...

I do believe that the reformed are our brothers in Christ since they strive to live a good life and be disciples of Jesus. I cannot say this for all who call themselves Christian.

Just a side note.

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• [Genesis 2:15-17 NASB] 15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. 16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
• [James 2:10 NASB] 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one [point,] he has become guilty of all.

• [Genesis 3:6-8 NASB] 6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make [one] wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings. 8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
• [Genesis 3:13 NASB] 13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
• [2 Corinthians 11:3 NASB] 3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity [of devotion] to Christ.

• [Leviticus 5:17 NASB] 17 "Now if a person sins and does any of the things which the LORD has commanded not to be done, though he was unaware, still he is guilty and shall bear his punishment.
• [James 4:17 NASB] 17 Therefore, to one who knows [the] right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.
• [1 John 3:4 NASB] 4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

• [Romans 5:12-14 NASB] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
• [Romans 5:15-17 NASB] 15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
• [Romans 5:18-21 NASB] 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
• [1 Corinthians 15:22 NASB] 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

• [Genesis 3:16-19 NASB] 16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you." 17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. 18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; 19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
• [Genesis 3:23 NASB] 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
• [Romans 3:16 NASB] 16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
• [Romans 5:12 NASB] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
• [Ephesians 2:1 NKJV] 1 And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins,

1. The guilt of Adams first sin.
   • [Romans 5:12 NASB] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned---
   • [Romans 5:19 NASB] 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

atpollard said:

Aw, come on. You and I are the “Token Calvinists” in “Arminianland” ... consider it an extra challenge.

(besides, we have the advantage of actually being RIGHT about this.) 2

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atpollard said:

Aw, come on. You and I are the “Token Calvinists” in “Arminianland” ... consider it an extra challenge.

(besides, we have the advantage of actually being RIGHT about this.) 2

Click to expand...

OzSpen said:

I believe in Total Depravity because it is a Bible teaching. It refers to comprehensive inability to do God's good because of sins and transgressions.

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atpollard said:

Mankind (Adam) entered into a covenant of life with God based upon perfect obedience under pain of death.

• [Genesis 2:15-17 NASB] 15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. 16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
• [James 2:10 NASB] 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one [point,] he has become guilty of all.

Our parents (Adam and Eve) exercised their free will and sinned against God, breaking the covenant of life.

• [Genesis 3:6-8 NASB] 6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make [one] wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings. 8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
• [Genesis 3:13 NASB] 13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
• [2 Corinthians 11:3 NASB] 3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity [of devotion] to Christ.

What is sin? ... Sin is any lack of conformity to or violation of the Law of God.

• [Leviticus 5:17 NASB] 17 "Now if a person sins and does any of the things which the LORD has commanded not to be done, though he was unaware, still he is guilty and shall bear his punishment.
• [James 4:17 NASB] 17 Therefore, to one who knows [the] right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.
• [1 John 3:4 NASB] 4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

The covenant with Adam was made for all of his descendants, so all sinned with Adam in his transgression and all fell with him from life into death.

• [Romans 5:12-14 NASB] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
• [Romans 5:15-17 NASB] 15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
• [Romans 5:18-21 NASB] 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
• [1 Corinthians 15:22 NASB] 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

The fall brought ALL MANKIND into a state of sin and misery.

• [Genesis 3:16-19 NASB] 16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you." 17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. 18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; 19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
• [Genesis 3:23 NASB] 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
• [Romans 3:16 NASB] 16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
• [Romans 5:12 NASB] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
• [Ephesians 2:1 NKJV] 1 And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins,

So what exactly are we born guilty of? What is this state of “sin and misery”, exactly?

1. The guilt of Adams first sin.
   • [Romans 5:12 NASB] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned---
   • [Romans 5:19 NASB] 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

[to be continued ... it is getting to be my bedtime here]
[To avoid any accusations of plagiarism, this is inspired by the Westminster Catechism, but the words are all mine. The scripture is from God. ? ]

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OzSpen said:

atp,

Here is my attempt.

My understanding of total depravity or total inability is parallel with that of Jacob Arminius. Before the Fall into sin, human beings were 'good' in their ability to love and do the works of God.

Before the Fall, human beings were created in the image of God (Gen 1:26-27). According to Gen 2:17, before the Fall human beings had the ability to choose good from evil. After the Fall, for believers, they have 'put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator (Col 3:10 NIV).

Ephesians 2:1-2 (NIV) is a critical couple of verses in understanding Total Depravity: 'As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient'. What does it mean to be 'dead in sins'? They were spiritually dead in their former lives and this was their lifestyle (present participle). We note in Eph 1:7 the plurals, 'In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace' (NIV). Every trespass/sin (missing the mark) demonstrated this deadness.

​

Does it mean that unbelievers cannot respond to God's offer of salvation? We know this is not the case because of the content of Titus 2:11 (NIV). Do sinners have a total inability to respond to the offer of salvation without God's unconditional election and irresistible grace?​

​

We know that Adam and Eve, after they had sinned, could still hear the voice of God (Gen 3:8-19 NIV). Therefore, Total Depravity does not cut one off from hearing the voice of God. It is a demonstration of what has happened within human beings.​

​

The crunch is this, described as total depravity, and it is that sinful human beings cannot do what is good towards God because the free will has not only been 'wounded, maimed, made infirm, bent, and weakened' but also it is 'imprisoned, destroyed, and lost'. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace'. For Christ has said, “Without me you can do nothing.”​

​

St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: “Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.” That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man' (Arminius 1977:525-526).​

But the great and good news is that God has provided a way to deal with this 'dead in sin' situation: 'For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people' (Titus 2:11 NIV). This is the enabling grace of God available 'to all people' for the offering of salvation.

I believe in Total Depravity because it is a Bible teaching. It refers to comprehensive inability to do God's good because of sins and transgressions.

Oz

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