T.U.L.I.P. - Total Depravity

[JLB]

Let me ask you, can any person reach a state of sinless perfection (total sanctification) while still alive?

I believe people can be sanctified and cleansed of all unrighteousness.


I don’t see how we as Christians can be sinless, while we still have a body that contains sin. The body doesn’t get free from sin until the resurrection.



JLB

 

[atpollard]

When does Gd to this work of making us spiritually alive?

When we believe the Gospel, or sometime before?

[Ephesians 2:4-10 NIV] 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[JLB]

I appreciate you guys explaining and defining, in your own words what Total Depravity means.


Hopefully you don’t consider the Church as Totally Depraved.




JLB

 

[JLB]

[Ephesians 2:4-10 NIV] 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Amen. Good scriptures.


Im surprised you guys didn’t use more links and references to other scholars. I said t ok in this thread because the whole thread is about, well, a doctrine that is questionable biblically, at least to some, so I figured you guys could use links and references from outside sources.

 

[atpollard]

How about Christians who present the members of their body as a slave to sin?

Just my opinion, but I do not believe that such a being exists.

Do Christians who are under grace, that present themselves as slaves of sin, return to the bondage they were once freed from?

I can only speak for my personal experience, since I have no way to see the heart of another or know the thoughts of God towards their heart. Salvation was such a totally transformational experience, that what you propose seems no more possible than a “married bachelor”.

 

[atpollard]

I don’t see how we as Christians can be sinless, while we still have a body that contains sin. The body doesn’t get free from sin until the resurrection.

So you only struggle with sins of the flesh? Things like envy or greed or jealousy which are from the mind and spirit never cause you to miss the mark of perfect holiness that God expects?

You are either far more sanctified than I am (or a liar). ?

 

[atpollard]

Hopefully you don’t consider the Church as Totally Depraved.

It mostly applies to salvation, to getting from “spiritually dead enemy of God” to ”justified Child of God” ... so Total Depravity or Total Inability does not really apply to the church. John just makes it clear that even the Church is not “sinless” on this side of glorification.

 

[JLB]

Just my opinion, but I do not believe that such a being exists.


I can only speak for my personal experience, since I have no way to see the heart of another or know the thoughts of God towards their heart. Salvation was such a totally transformational experience, that what you propose seems no more possible than a “married bachelor”.

Ok

I gave scripture, so you know where I stand.

I don’t want to continue with more scripture and responses in this thread, so you guys can do most of the explaining of what you and the Reformers had in mind about this doctrine.

I will start another thread, for that.



JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB,

So you are not observing and asking questions about total depravity as you stated in #4.

Now you present us with your exposition. I consider you have betrayed your original intent.

Oz

If you like, I can delete any of my posts in this thread.



JLB

 

[JLB]

It mostly applies to salvation, to getting from “spiritually dead enemy of God” to ”justified Child of God” ... so Total Depravity or Total Inability does not really apply to the church. John just makes it clear that even the Church is not “sinless” on this side of glorification.

Amen.

 

[JLB]

So you only struggle with sins of the flesh? Things like envy or greed or jealousy which are from the mind and spirit never cause you to miss the mark of perfect holiness that God expects?

You are either far more sanctified than I am (or a liar). ?

I don’t struggle with envy, greed or jealousy.

I have overcome many sinful habits in my time with the Lord.

I don’t associate with sinners, or listen to secular music, or go places that are questionable or let my eyes look at things that are seductive.

Ive learned to keep myself from worldly influences and invest my time towards things that the Spirit desires.

My weakness and fault is I don’t spend enough time in prayer and fasting and the word as much as my inner man desires.

I see this as a struggle with my flesh.

Also, my wife and I go to the movies sometimes on date night.


I have had to learn some hard lessons about the weakness of my flesh, and allowing it to have its way. I have been backslider and fallen back into sinful habits in which I became lost, and had to repent and return to God and be reconciled back to Him.


In my opinion we are either becoming sanctified and holy or we are not.


Are we doing the things that the Spirit desires us to do, or are we doing the things the flesh desires us to do?


Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

• but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

I wonder how the Reformers viewed this scripture?



JLB

 

[OzSpen]

He can’t help it.
It is his fallen nature, the total inability of his body, mind and soul to do what he knows God calls him to do ... just like a “Totally Depraved” Calvinist or Classic Arminian. ?

atp,

I think you are being way too hard on him. He has a sinful nature that is being renewed - which is the same with me. See Col 3:10 (NLT): 'Put on your new nature, and be renewed as you learn to know your Creator and become like him'.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

If you like, I can delete any of my posts in this thread.

JLB

JLB,

All I ask is that you be consistent and not engage in hypocrisy. If you say you will do one thing, then stick with that plan.

Oz

 

[JLB]

JLB,

All I ask is that you be consistent and not engage in hypocrisy. If you say you will do one thing, then stick with that plan.

Oz

If you ask me a question about the topic of discussion then it’s only reasonable to think I will answer.

Like I said, I will be glad to delete any posts I made where I responded to you.


Blessings to you.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

To anyone in this thread —


To whom does Total Depravity apply to?


All of Adam‘s offspring?

Select individuals?


Who did the reformers indicate was totally depraved?




JLB

According to the reformers, Total Depravity applies to everyone...all of Adam's offspring....every man that was ever born.

They believe that Total Depravity means that we are so depraved that we cannot come to God unless God takes those HE wants to Himself and saves only those persons.

Everyone else remains totally depraved.

The rest of Christianity believes that man is born depraved because he is born with the sin nature....
BUT
Not so depraved as to be unable to go to God.

We are told throughout scripture that we are to believe and then we'll be saved.
Acts 16:31-32
They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

It's apparent from the above that WE must do the believing.
If we are so depraved as to not BE ABLE to do this believing...then HOW are we saved?

I hope that those that believe in Total Depravity will answer this question.

 

[GodsGrace]

All of us. Calvinists and Arminians both agree with the teaching on total depravity. Arminius was a Reformer, a Dutch Reformed Minister until his early death at age 49.

Surely Rom 7 demonstrates we are all infected with sin and battle against sin.

I don't agree with Total Depravity Oz.
I agree with depravity.
Adding the word TOTAL do depravity makes us unable to approach God unless He drags us to Him.

What verses make you believe we are totally depraved?

 

[OzSpen]

If you ask me a question about the topic of discussion then it’s only reasonable to think I will answer.

Like I said, I will be glad to delete any posts I made where I responded to you.


Blessings to you.


JLB

What?

 

[OzSpen]

I don't agree with Total Depravity Oz.
I agree with depravity.
Adding the word TOTAL do depravity makes us unable to approach God unless He drags us to Him.

What verses make you believe we are totally depraved?

wondering,

Why don't we replace 'total' with 'comprehensive'?

Ephesians 2:1-2 (NIV) are critical verses in understanding Total Depravity:

'As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient'.​

What does it mean to be 'dead in sins'?

They were spiritually dead in their former lives and this was their lifestyle (present participle – continual action). We note in Eph 1:7 the plurals, 'In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace' (NIV). Every trespass/sin (missing the mark) demonstrated this deadness.

This means they were sinful, separated from God and sentenced to God's condemnation (Rom 3:23; Eph 2:1-3). Total depravity does not mean that human beings are as bad as bad could be. But it means every part of a human being - body, soul/spirit, heart, and mind - has been infected with sin.

That means all human beings have a sinful nature with a natural desire/inclination to sin. So, all human beings are fundamentally corrupt throughout their entire beings (Jer 17:9; Gen 6:5; Matt 19:17; Luke 11:13).

All people are spiritually dead in their sins (Eph 2:1-3; Col 2:13) and as a result are slaves to sin (Rom 6:17-20).

Could anything be clearer than the Apostle Paul's statement, 'For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature [flesh]. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out' (Rom 7:13 NIV).

Paul further explains the nature of total depravity: "As it is written: ‘None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one’” (Rom 3:10-12; cf. Rom 1:18-32; Eph 4:17-22).

So in their natural states, people are hostile to God and they cannot submit to his Law or please him - they are totally depraved (Rom 8:7-8).

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Why don't we replace 'total' with 'comprehensive'?

Ephesians 2:1-2 (NIV) are critical verses in understanding Total Depravity:

'As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient'.​

What does it mean to be 'dead in sins'?

They were spiritually dead in their former lives and this was their lifestyle (present participle – continual action). We note in Eph 1:7 the plurals, 'In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace' (NIV). Every trespass/sin (missing the mark) demonstrated this deadness.

This means they were sinful, separated from God and sentenced to God's condemnation (Rom 3:23; Eph 2:1-3). Total depravity does not mean that human beings are as bad as bad could be. But it means every part of a human being - body, soul/spirit, heart, and mind - has been infected with sin.

That means all human beings have a sinful nature with a natural desire/inclination to sin. So, all human beings are fundamentally corrupt throughout their entire beings (Jer 17:9; Gen 6:5; Matt 19:17; Luke 11:13).

All people are spiritually dead in their sins (Eph 2:1-3; Col 2:13) and as a result are slaves to sin (Rom 6:17-20).

Could anything be clearer than the Apostle Paul's statement, 'For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature [flesh]. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out' (Rom 7:13 NIV).

Paul further explains the nature of total depravity: "As it is written: ‘None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one’” (Rom 3:10-12; cf. Rom 1:18-32; Eph 4:17-22).

So in their natural states, people are hostile to God and they cannot submit to his Law or please him - they are totally depraved (Rom 8:7-8).

Oz

If you change the word to comprehensive I could agree because it refers to the person and how every part of the person is depraved, as you've explained above.

Total Depravity, OTOH, means that the depravity is total and is at 100%.

This would mean that it is impossible for an unsaved person to do any good and it is impossible for an unsaved person to become saved without the desire of God to save that particular person. To me the word TOTAL links to the T in TULIP and I can agree with none of the letters.

In fact, I'd say that if Total Depravity falls, so does all of TULIP.

Total Depravity causes God to have to decide which is
Unconditional Election - our salvation is based on NOTHING but God choosing a select few which causes
Limited Atonement - since Jesus could then NOT have died for everyone, so naturally those chosen few know
Irresistible Grace - and if grace is irresistible, then surely we must have
Perseverance of the Saints - since God made the choice of persons saved and HE cannot fail.

 

[OzSpen]

If you change the word to comprehensive I could agree because it refers to the person and how every part of the person is depraved, as you've explained above.

Total Depravity, OTOH, means that the depravity is total and is at 100%.

This would mean that it is impossible for an unsaved person to do any good and it is impossible for an unsaved person to become saved without the desire of God to save that particular person. To me the word TOTAL links to the T in TULIP and I can agree with none of the letters.

In fact, I'd say that if Total Depravity falls, so does all of TULIP.

Total Depravity causes God to have to decide which is
Unconditional Election - our salvation is based on NOTHING but God choosing a select few which causes
Limited Atonement - since Jesus could then NOT have died for everyone, so naturally those chosen few know
Irresistible Grace - and if grace is irresistible, then surely we must have
Perseverance of the Saints - since God made the choice of persons saved and HE cannot fail.

wondering,

I don't accept some of your premises. If my total person is affected by a severe bout of pneumonia (or COVID-19), it does not mean I'm incapable of responding to you on my PC or phoning my daughter and chatting with her.

So, since we had total/comprehensive depravity it does not mean we can't respond to God (see Rom 1:18-20 NIV). However, he has to take the initiative of drawing us like a fishing net trawling through the ocean waters for Australian king prawns (John 6:44 NIV and John 12:32 NIV).

I don't accept your logic:

Total Depravity causes God to have to decide which is​

Unconditional Election ​

Total depravity means we are so dead in sin that we need God's grace to draw us to him. This is not irresistible grace.

Does it mean that unbelievers cannot respond to God's offer of salvation? We know this is not the case because of the content of Titus 2:11 (NIV). Do sinners have a total inability to respond to the offer of salvation without God's unconditional election and irresistible grace?

We know that Adam and Eve, after they had sinned, could still hear the voice of God (Gen 3:8-19 NIV). Therefore, Total Depravity does not cut one off from hearing the voice of God. It is a demonstration of what has happened within human beings.

The crunch is this, described as total depravity, and it is that sinful human beings cannot do what is good towards God because the free will has not only been 'wounded, maimed, made infirm, bent, and weakened' but also it is 'imprisoned, destroyed, and lost'. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it also has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, “Without me you can do nothing.”

In my theology, I can accept T and P of TULIP but not ULI. That's the Reformed/Classical Arminian position as well. Since I don't agree with infant baptism, that makes me a 'leaky' Reformed Arminian.

Oz