God loves you today!

Calvinists quote this verse to support their doctrine of eternal security. But, we can separate ourselves from God's love, if we choose.

T. E. Smith said:

Calvinists quote this verse to support their doctrine of eternal security. But, we can separate ourselves from God's love, if we choose.

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Thankfully Gods love toward us is not dependent upon our acceptance of Him.

I’m reminded of my kid when he was going through his teens when he screamed in anger toward me and his Mom. He said, “I hate you”. Nothing our children say or do can separate our love for them.

I think this is expressed by God himself through the words of Jesus when he hung on the cross looking out at those who had him crucified.

“Father forgive them, for they not what they do”

For me, that kind of love is pretty incredible.

T. E. Smith said:

Calvinists quote this verse to support their doctrine of eternal security. But, we can separate ourselves from God's love, if we choose.

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They fail to notice that we ourselves is not in the list.

stovebolts said:

Thankfully Gods love toward us is not dependent upon our acceptance of Him.

I’m reminded of my kid when he was going through his teens when he screamed in anger toward me and his Mom. He said, “I hate you”. Nothing our children say or do can separate our love for them.

I think this is expressed by God himself through the words of Jesus when he hung on the cross looking out at those who had him crucified.

“Father forgive them, for they not what they do”

For me, that kind of love is pretty incredible.

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The difficulty comes when there is more than one man and God in the room. That is, if one of your grown children decided to harm the other children, is it still love to allow them to so because you don’t want to separate yourself from any of them? Do the other children have to suffer?

I heard of a family who adopted two young children. The older one, a girl, was severely abused by her biological father and after a time started doing things to the younger one that could have killed him. She began taking sharp knives out of the kitchen and talked about killing her brother. Her parents had to lock her in her room at night and she freely admitted she knew why and it a possibility. Finally her parents had to put her in an institution to get her help. They separated themselves from her. Does this mean they didn’t love her?

Dorothy Mae said:

Does this mean they didn’t love her?

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I can’t, nor will I speak on behalf of the hearts of people I don’t know.

What I can say is this. There is a wide spectrum of people that range from very good people all the way to very bad people who do very evil things to children which continues the cycle of generational sin.

The Bible teaches us to love our neighbor as ourselves, but in doing so the Bible assumes we love ourselves as God loves us. Very often this is not the case. It’s been my experience that many people know of God, but they haven’t “seen” God. Job was such a man. Job knew a lot about God, so much that his actions were considered righteous. What Job lacked was love for God because his fear of God blinded him to Gods true nature, which is most often the case with many of us.

And then we have the other side of the coin where people know of God, but have no respect for him or His ways and disregard his laws.

Because neither group loves God, they truly don’t know how to love themselves the way God loves them. BTW, did you know Gods righteousness is bound in His mercy? Justice always carries an element of righteousness and mercy emanates from Gods love for us. It’s the part of God that is long suffering and desires the best for us. It’s what causes God to patiently pour grace upon us as he attempts to lead us though our sin to a place of freedom.

As a result, many people can treat their neighbor as they treat themselves which can be radically different than God treats us. For some, their idea of love is radically different than Gods love. Sometimes, it’s even twisted or distorted it looks nothing like Gods love and we call this self righteousness.

I’ve heard people say, “If I did that, I would expect xy and x to happen”. I think the eurythmics put it well in one of their 80’s song when they sang,

Some of them want to use you
Some of them want to get used by you
Some of them want to abuse you
Some of them want to be abused

We have a Father in heaven that once we get to know him, he won’t let us down, or disappoint us as our earthy Father, or even preachers or elders in the church often do. And when we begin to understand Gods love for us, it has the power to change how we view others around us… Even when they scream, “ I hate you…” or even, “There is no God”.

stovebolts said:

I can’t, nor will I speak on behalf of the hearts of people I don’t know.

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They loved her. I can tell by the “fruits on the tree” as Jesus taught.

stovebolts said:

What I can say is this. There is a wide spectrum of people that range from very good people all the way to very bad people who do very evil things to children which continues the cycle of generational sin.

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What does that have to do with the discussion? I can tell you that loving parents MUST separate themselves from a child at times out of love for the other children. I know a certain crowd doesn’t like that truth but they’re just denying the obvious.

stovebolts said:

The Bible teaches us to love our neighbor as ourselves, but in doing so the Bible assumes we love ourselves as God loves us.

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No, it does not assume that. We are never told to love ourselves as God loves us. Parents don’t tell their child to love themselves as they love them. This is impossible standard.

Now we all love ourselves and very much. All of us do. This is a different discussion though and so I’ll stop on that subject so this doesn’t get too long.

stovebolts said:

Very often this is not the case. It’s been my experience that many people know of God, but they haven’t “seen” God. Job was such a man. Job knew a lot about God, so much that his actions were considered righteous.

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You do realize that God called his (Job’s) actions righteous, right? Pretty reliable evaluation.

stovebolts said:

What Job lacked was love for God because his fear of God blinded him to Gods true nature, which is most often the case with many of us.

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Totally unsubstantiated. For someone who refused to judge the hearts of people you don’t know, you feel fairly free to judge that man’s heart, whom you don’t know.

As for the rest, I do have a lot to say but I don’t want this to get long.

Dorothy Mae said:

They loved her. I can tell by the “fruits on the tree” as Jesus taught.

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I believe you, and this is good to hear.

Dorothy Mae said:

What does that have to do with the discussion? I can tell you that loving parents MUST separate themselves from a child at times out of love for the other children. I know a certain crowd doesn’t like that truth but they’re just denying the obvious.

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I don't know the parents you were talking about. As a result, I was trying to explain why I would not judge their hearts. My reply was not specific to them, it was simply me trying to explain why I would not judge them.
Yes, there are times when children need to be separated from each other, and there is a time that Parents need to be separated from their children. What I am grappling with is the way you worded this.

loving parents MUST separate themselves from a child at times

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I think you mean physically separate themselves. This takes great emotional control but yes, there may be times when this is needed. As far as this "other crowd", I'm not concerned what they think. We all raise our children the way we deem best.

Dorothy Mae said:

You do realize that God called his (Job’s) actions righteous, right? Pretty reliable evaluation.

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Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil.
Job 1:8 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.

Yup, that sounds like a pretty big complement from God.
I said,

What Job lacked was love for God because his fear of God blinded him to Gods true nature, which is most often the case with many of us.

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Within Job, can you show me one place where God speaks for Job's love for him?

Job 1:4-5 And his sons went and held a feast in the house of each one upon his day; and they sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt-offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and renounced God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

We see here that Job (Who BTW is a gentile) is offering sacrifice. Does God desire sacrifice? Or does he desire a repentant heart? Job was perfect in his sacrifices, but he sacrificed out of fear as noted by the burnt offerings. If you've never studied the sacrificial system, I would urge you to do so. I do assume you've done some study in this area though.

Imagine for a moment doing your husbands laundry, cooking all the meals and keeping the house spotless because you were fearful of your husbands retribution. You could be doing everything perfect and blameless in your household. But is being in a state of fearfulness really healthy on a relationship? This is the relationship Job has with God.

Dorothy Mae said:

Totally unsubstantiated. For someone who refused to judge the hearts of people you don’t know, you feel fairly free to judge that man’s heart, whom you don’t know.

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I know Job better than whoever you are speaking about. You gave me a paragraph on somebody you knew that took me less than a few minutes to read. That's not enough information to judge anyone on.
However, Job is many, many pages and I've spent a lot of time in Job. I've gotten to know Job you might say. As far as being unsbstanciated, I'll leave you with this.

Job 42:1-6 Then Job answered Jehovah, and said, I know that thou canst do all things, And that no purpose of thine can be restrained. Who is this that hideth counsel without knowledge? Therefore have I uttered that which I understood not, Things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak; I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear; But now mine eye seeth thee: Wherefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes.

If Job were perfect in his relationship with God, there would be no reason for him to repent.

There was a whole side of God that Job did not know about. Job "Heard" a lot about God, but he did not "See" God. In other words, he did not have the right relationship with God. God desires more of us than just going through the motion. God wants a relationship with us. These things that were "too wonderful for me, which I knew not" did not consist of head knowledge.

stovebolts said:

The Bible teaches us to love our neighbor as ourselves, but in doing so the Bible assumes we love ourselves as God loves us

Click to expand...

Dorothy Mae said:

No, it does not assume that. We are never told to love ourselves as God loves us. Parents don’t tell their child to love themselves as they love them. This is impossible standard.

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Let me try it this way.
Parents have a natural love for their children and children have a natural love for their parents.
I won't love your child as I love my child. As a result, I can go through the motion of treating your child as I treat my own, but I won't love your child in the same manner I love mine. This does not mean that I can't love your child. But if I were to love your child as you loved your child, then I would need to see how you expressed that love for your child and once understood, love your child similar to how you love your own child.

God is our Father, and he loves us deeply and if we love Him, we understand how well he treats us. We see how he accepts us with all of our faults, and we "See" the mercy and grace he has granted us and we are thankful for his forgiveness. When we start to "See" God in this way, it draws us nearer to him and that love grows deeper. When God releases us from our guilt and shame, then we need to learn how to release ourselves from that guilt and shame as well. God does not hold these things against us, so why do so many hold these things against themselves? The prison doors have been opened, yet so many won't walk out.

But there are many, including myself who understand that we are to love ourselves as God loves us. And although our love for God is incomplete and ever growing, we can love ourselves as we "See" God loving us. and we can "Love" others as we currently understand how God "loves" us. It may not be in the fullness of God, but it will be God's love in us none the less, and we should not discount that.

Deuteronomy 30:11-15 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

stovebolts said:

I believe you, and this is good to hear.

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They still had to separate her from them because she wanted to kill her brother. Loving your offspring doesn’t mean you never separate yourself from them.

Dorothy Mae said:

They still had to separate her from them because she wanted to kill her brother. Loving your offspring doesn’t mean you never separate yourself from them.

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Love is long suffering, love always hopes. Love does not enable sin. Grace says, Your sinning, but together you’ll hit the mark.

I know a gal who’s teenage son was raping his 10 year old sister. It was a difficult thing for her inside to remove him from the house but it was something that needed to be done. I am thankful she is a Godly woman. She handled it perfectly.

stovebolts said:

I don't know the parents you were talking about. As a result, I was trying to explain why I would not judge their hearts. My reply was not specific to them, it was simply me trying to explain why I would not judge them.
Yes, there are times when children need to be separated from each other, and there is a time that Parents need to be separated from their children. What I am grappling with is the way you worded this.

I think you mean physically separate themselves. This takes great emotional control but yes, there may be times when this is needed. As far as this "other crowd", I'm not concerned what they think. We all raise our children the way we deem best.

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Those who believe no believer can ever be separated from God often use the example of human parents never separating their children from themselves. I gave an example where parents did and I know of other parents who did and in each case it always because of the morally bad behavior of the offspring. My point is that human parents actually do what that theological group claims they don’t.

stovebolts said:

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil.
Job 1:8 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.

Yup, that sounds like a pretty big complement from God.
I said,

Within Job, can you show me one place where God speaks for Job's love for him?

Job 1:4-5 And his sons went and held a feast in the house of each one upon his day; and they sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt-offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and renounced God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

We see here that Job (Who BTW is a gentile) is offering sacrifice. Does God desire sacrifice? Or does he desire a repentant heart? Job was perfect in his sacrifices, but he sacrificed out of fear as noted by the burnt offerings. If you've never studied the sacrificial system, I would urge you to do so. I do assume you've done some study in this area though.

Imagine for a moment doing your husbands laundry, cooking all the meals and keeping the house spotless because you were fearful of your husbands retribution. You could be doing everything perfect and blameless in your household. But is being in a state of fearfulness really healthy on a relationship? This is the relationship Job has with God.


I know Job better than whoever you are speaking about. You gave me a paragraph on somebody you knew that took me less than a few minutes to read. That's not enough information to judge anyone on.
However, Job is many, many pages and I've spent a lot of time in Job. I've gotten to know Job you might say. As far as being unsbstanciated, I'll leave you with this.

Job 42:1-6 Then Job answered Jehovah, and said, I know that thou canst do all things, And that no purpose of thine can be restrained. Who is this that hideth counsel without knowledge? Therefore have I uttered that which I understood not, Things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak; I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear; But now mine eye seeth thee: Wherefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes.

If Job were perfect in his relationship with God, there would be no reason for him to repent.

There was a whole side of God that Job did not know about. Job "Heard" a lot about God, but he did not "See" God. In other words, he did not have the right relationship with God. God desires more of us than just going through the motion. God wants a relationship with us. These things that were "too wonderful for me, which I knew not" did not consist of head knowledge.

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stovebolts, I’d like to address this in a private conversation, but first I’d like to consider my response. My goal is to introduce some different thoughts on the matter of Job above.

Dorothy Mae said:

stovebolts, I’d like to address this in a private conversation, but first I’d like to consider my response. My goal is to introduce some different thoughts on the matter of Job above.

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Sure, or start a new thread.

Dorothy Mae said:

Those who believe no believer can ever be separated from God often use the example of human parents never separating their children from themselves. I gave an example where parents did and I know of other parents who did and in each case it always because of the morally bad behavior of the offspring. My point is that human parents actually do what that theological group claims they don’t.

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I agree with you, that is why I don’t surround myself with those types of theological discussions for the very point you’ve just made. It’s a waste of my time and something I receive no satisfaction from.

In other words, theologically high ideas have no grounding in reality. When they loose their reality, it’s of no use.

stovebolts said:

I don’t surround myself with those types of theological discussions for the very point you’ve just made. It’s a waste of my time and something I receive no satisfaction from.

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I rarely do, but the scripture where Jesus promises that MANY will come to him assuming they are saved but are not in His eyes troubles me.

Dorothy Mae said:

I rarely do, but the scripture where Jesus promises that MANY will come to him assuming they are saved but are not in His eyes troubles me.

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What good is an idea if it can’t be lived out?

I believe salvation is more than an ideal. It’s a way of life.

stovebolts said:

What good is an idea if it can’t be lived out?

I believe salvation is more than an ideal. It’s a way of life.

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Me too. But some think it’s giving mental ascent to an idea in order to avoid hell.