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It's Impossible Without Faith.

Tenchi

Tenchi

Member
Hebrews 11:6
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

​
Faith is so much a part of Christianity, so integral to being a Christian, that often one hears Christianity described as "the Christian faith." Jesus made much of faith, decrying its absence or weakness in some and praising its greatness in others (Matthew 8:7-10; Matthew 14:28-31). Paul wrote that "the just shall live by faith" in his letter to the church at Rome and to Christians in the province of Galatia; and to the Corinthian believers he wrote, "we walk by faith, not by sight" (Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; 2 Corinthians 5:7). Again and again God's word enjoins the one who would know and walk with God to exert faith, belief, trust in Him.

Why? If God wants us to know and commune with Him so badly, why doesn't He just appear and interact with us as one of us? Wouldn't that be the simplest, best route to relating with us? Well, if one thinks from oneself outward to God, these are reasonable questions. If we think God should conform to us, confine Himself to our own frame of reference, appeal to our natural sensuality, then why shouldn't we wonder along these lines when He doesn't?

Oh, but hang on: He has done exactly this, hasn't He? Did He not take on human form in the Person of Christ? Yes, He did.

John 1:14 (NASB)
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Philippians 2:5-8 (NASB)
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

God has met we human beings where we are, in Jesus. We can read the historical accounts of his life and teaching even 2000 years after he returned to the Father. More than this, we aren't left bereft of the presence of God, seeing God "high and lifted up" - and a million miles away. We've been given the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), the Holy Spirit, who lives within us, imparting to us the life of Christ, changing us and enabling us to live as God created us to live (John 14:16-17; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20; Titus 3:5; Ephesians 3:16; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Philippians 2:13, etc.).

But we can't hold Christ's hand, or look him in the eye; we can't share a pizza with him, or help him plant a garden; we can't actually be "held in his embrace" as so many modern choruses propose. No, Christ is a figure from the ancient past, long since ascended into heaven, for whose promised return many have died hoping. We have the Gospels, we have the Holy Spirit - amazing, awesome things, to be sure - but not seeing God in the flesh, not able to witness firsthand his miraculous deeds and hear him speak eternal, life-changing truth, we must have faith, we must believe, we must trust.

It's worth noting, though, that even those who lived with Christ, who followed him as his closest disciples, still struggled to believe he was who he said he was and then daily demonstrated, in word and supernatural deed, that he was. But this is what it is to walk with God. He bends our expectations out of shape and regularly dismantles them, confounding human wisdom, turning things on their head, existing far beyond our understanding in mind-boggling and even frightening ways. And He does so without apology and, often, without explanation. With God, the way up is down (1 Peter 5:6; James 4:10), life comes through death (Galatians 2:20; Colossians 3:3; Romans 6:1-11), a leader is the servant of all (Mark 9:35; Mark 10:42-45), strength is discovered in weakness (2 Corinthians 12:10), and so on. With God, horns and shouting bring down city walls, bathing in a dirty river seven times heals leprosy, a few conquer the many, and hungry lions lose their appetite. With God, one walks with the Infinite, a Being without beginning or end, a Being who has always known everything, who is in all places at all times, and whose will and power constantly upholds the entire material universe. Such a God constantly stretches our faith, our trust, and our humility, reminding us at every turn of our deep inferiority and utter dependency. (Revelation 1:12-18; Psalm 139:1-16; Acts 17:28; John 1:1-3, etc.)

We must trust also in order to love God. He will not compel us to love Him. Were He to stand in front of us in all His glory, however, revealing Himself in all His awesome wonder and power, we could not willingly choose to interact with Him. The weight of His presence would drive us to our knees (if it didn't consume us entirely) and compel from us an acknowledgment of His supremacy and right to rule us. But this acknowledgment would not come necessarily from hearts willingly yielded to Him in love. Not at all. Being compelled to admit something doesn't mean we are glad to admit it. In fact, if we only make an admission under compulsion, is this not so because we do not want to make it? Likewise, if God were to appear and force us, by doing so, to accept Him as God.

Giving us the freedom to choose to trust and love Him requires, then, that God not "show up" in an open, direct, full-blown way. Unlike us, He is too great, too awesome, to appear to us as He truly is. Instead, He gives us glimpses of Himself in Creation, and in the special revelation of Himself in His word, intervening here and there in our affairs, fulfilling His promises to His children, changing them, teaching them, filling them with Himself, making of them "little Christs" in whom He can be seen. In all of this, though, He calls us to trust Him, to believe in Him, to have faith in who He is and what He's done - and will do - for us; for we cannot know Him and love Him otherwise.
 
Tenchi said:
Hebrews 11:6
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

​
Faith is so much a part of Christianity, so integral to being a Christian, that often one hears Christianity described as "the Christian faith." Jesus made much of faith, decrying its absence or weakness in some and praising its greatness in others (Matthew 8:7-10; Matthew 14:28-31). Paul wrote that "the just shall live by faith" in his letter to the church at Rome and to Christians in the province of Galatia; and to the Corinthian believers he wrote, "we walk by faith, not by sight" (Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; 2 Corinthians 5:7). Again and again God's word enjoins the one who would know and walk with God to exert faith, belief, trust in Him.

Why? If God wants us to know and commune with Him so badly, why doesn't He just appear and interact with us as one of us? Wouldn't that be the simplest, best route to relating with us? Well, if one thinks from oneself outward to God, these are reasonable questions. If we think God should conform to us, confine Himself to our own frame of reference, appeal to our natural sensuality, then why shouldn't we wonder along these lines when He doesn't?

Oh, but hang on: He has done exactly this, hasn't He? Did He not take on human form in the Person of Christ? Yes, He did.

John 1:14 (NASB)
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Philippians 2:5-8 (NASB)
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

God has met we human beings where we are, in Jesus. We can read the historical accounts of his life and teaching even 2000 years after he returned to the Father. More than this, we aren't left bereft of the presence of God, seeing God "high and lifted up" - and a million miles away. We've been given the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), the Holy Spirit, who lives within us, imparting to us the life of Christ, changing us and enabling us to live as God created us to live (John 14:16-17; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20; Titus 3:5; Ephesians 3:16; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Philippians 2:13, etc.).

But we can't hold Christ's hand, or look him in the eye; we can't share a pizza with him, or help him plant a garden; we can't actually be "held in his embrace" as so many modern choruses propose. No, Christ is a figure from the ancient past, long since ascended into heaven, for whose promised return many have died hoping. We have the Gospels, we have the Holy Spirit - amazing, awesome things, to be sure - but not seeing God in the flesh, not able to witness firsthand his miraculous deeds and hear him speak eternal, life-changing truth, we must have faith, we must believe, we must trust.

It's worth noting, though, that even those who lived with Christ, who followed him as his closest disciples, still struggled to believe he was who he said he was and then daily demonstrated, in word and supernatural deed, that he was. But this is what it is to walk with God. He bends our expectations out of shape and regularly dismantles them, confounding human wisdom, turning things on their head, existing far beyond our understanding in mind-boggling and even frightening ways. And He does so without apology and, often, without explanation. With God, the way up is down (1 Peter 5:6; James 4:10), life comes through death (Galatians 2:20; Colossians 3:3; Romans 6:1-11), a leader is the servant of all (Mark 9:35; Mark 10:42-45), strength is discovered in weakness (2 Corinthians 12:10), and so on. With God, horns and shouting bring down city walls, bathing in a dirty river seven times heals leprosy, a few conquer the many, and hungry lions lose their appetite. With God, one walks with the Infinite, a Being without beginning or end, a Being who has always known everything, who is in all places at all times, and whose will and power constantly upholds the entire material universe. Such a God constantly stretches our faith, our trust, and our humility, reminding us at every turn of our deep inferiority and utter dependency. (Revelation 1:12-18; Psalm 139:1-16; Acts 17:28; John 1:1-3, etc.)

We must trust also in order to love God. He will not compel us to love Him. Were He to stand in front of us in all His glory, however, revealing Himself in all His awesome wonder and power, we could not willingly choose to interact with Him. The weight of His presence would drive us to our knees (if it didn't consume us entirely) and compel from us an acknowledgment of His supremacy and right to rule us. But this acknowledgment would not come necessarily from hearts willingly yielded to Him in love. Not at all. Being compelled to admit something doesn't mean we are glad to admit it. In fact, if we only make an admission under compulsion, is this not so because we do not want to make it? Likewise, if God were to appear and force us, by doing so, to accept Him as God.

Giving us the freedom to choose to trust and love Him requires, then, that God not "show up" in an open, direct, full-blown way. Unlike us, He is too great, too awesome, to appear to us as He truly is. Instead, He gives us glimpses of Himself in Creation, and in the special revelation of Himself in His word, intervening here and there in our affairs, fulfilling His promises to His children, changing them, teaching them, filling them with Himself, making of them "little Christs" in whom He can be seen. In all of this, though, He calls us to trust Him, to believe in Him, to have faith in who He is and what He's done - and will do - for us; for we cannot know Him and love Him otherwise.
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Doesn't that make it clear that sinners are unbelievers?
Sinners can't "please Him", because they don't have faith.
 
What does it mean to "walk by faith, not by sight"? One pastor put it this way:

"Faith is believing a thing is so,
When it appears it is not so,
In order for it to be so,
Because it is so."

The Christian's faith is always predicated on knowledge - knowledge of God in Creation, in His Law written on their hearts, and in the special revelation of Himself in Christ and the Bible. As Paul the apostle put it:

2 Timothy 1:12
12 ...for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Faith, according to Paul, begins with knowledge, then becomes a settled confidence in the truth of that knowledge and then, concludes with action reflecting one's knowledge and belief. A believer's faith is always fully exercised, or completed, in action. "Be a doer of the word and not a hearer only." (James 1:22; James 2:22) Only when a Christian puts their full weight upon God's truth, counting on it, holding it as true regardless of feeling or experience, will they see His truth bear fruit in their living. So, the faith of a born-again believer is not to be blind, resting on nothing, nor is it to be a thing only of the mind, mere intellectual assent, divorced from corresponding action.

Faith is a stepping-stone to fellowship with God; faith is not an end in itself. Godly faith always leads toward God, deeper into Him, never the reverse. If one's faith is merely the means to God's stuff, to stimulating physical sensations, and miraculous healings, and exciting, supernatural moments, and not to God Himself, it is not godly faith. And one's faith ought never to become a source of pride, a reason to sneer at the weaker brother or sister, or condemn them. There is nothing of God in such faith. Faith that is properly oriented on God, on knowing Him more, serves to open one's heart and mind to Him in humble submission, holy obedience, love and joy.

2 Peter 1:2-4
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
 
Tenchi said:
Hebrews 11:6
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

​
Faith is so much a part of Christianity, so integral to being a Christian, that often one hears Christianity described as "the Christian faith." Jesus made much of faith, decrying its absence or weakness in some and praising its greatness in others (Matthew 8:7-10; Matthew 14:28-31). Paul wrote that "the just shall live by faith" in his letter to the church at Rome and to Christians in the province of Galatia; and to the Corinthian believers he wrote, "we walk by faith, not by sight" (Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; 2 Corinthians 5:7). Again and again God's word enjoins the one who would know and walk with God to exert faith, belief, trust in Him.

Why? If God wants us to know and commune with Him so badly, why doesn't He just appear and interact with us as one of us? Wouldn't that be the simplest, best route to relating with us? Well, if one thinks from oneself outward to God, these are reasonable questions. If we think God should conform to us, confine Himself to our own frame of reference, appeal to our natural sensuality, then why shouldn't we wonder along these lines when He doesn't?

Oh, but hang on: He has done exactly this, hasn't He? Did He not take on human form in the Person of Christ? Yes, He did.

John 1:14 (NASB)
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Philippians 2:5-8 (NASB)
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

God has met we human beings where we are, in Jesus. We can read the historical accounts of his life and teaching even 2000 years after he returned to the Father. More than this, we aren't left bereft of the presence of God, seeing God "high and lifted up" - and a million miles away. We've been given the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), the Holy Spirit, who lives within us, imparting to us the life of Christ, changing us and enabling us to live as God created us to live (John 14:16-17; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20; Titus 3:5; Ephesians 3:16; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Philippians 2:13, etc.).

But we can't hold Christ's hand, or look him in the eye; we can't share a pizza with him, or help him plant a garden; we can't actually be "held in his embrace" as so many modern choruses propose. No, Christ is a figure from the ancient past, long since ascended into heaven, for whose promised return many have died hoping. We have the Gospels, we have the Holy Spirit - amazing, awesome things, to be sure - but not seeing God in the flesh, not able to witness firsthand his miraculous deeds and hear him speak eternal, life-changing truth, we must have faith, we must believe, we must trust.

It's worth noting, though, that even those who lived with Christ, who followed him as his closest disciples, still struggled to believe he was who he said he was and then daily demonstrated, in word and supernatural deed, that he was. But this is what it is to walk with God. He bends our expectations out of shape and regularly dismantles them, confounding human wisdom, turning things on their head, existing far beyond our understanding in mind-boggling and even frightening ways. And He does so without apology and, often, without explanation. With God, the way up is down (1 Peter 5:6; James 4:10), life comes through death (Galatians 2:20; Colossians 3:3; Romans 6:1-11), a leader is the servant of all (Mark 9:35; Mark 10:42-45), strength is discovered in weakness (2 Corinthians 12:10), and so on. With God, horns and shouting bring down city walls, bathing in a dirty river seven times heals leprosy, a few conquer the many, and hungry lions lose their appetite. With God, one walks with the Infinite, a Being without beginning or end, a Being who has always known everything, who is in all places at all times, and whose will and power constantly upholds the entire material universe. Such a God constantly stretches our faith, our trust, and our humility, reminding us at every turn of our deep inferiority and utter dependency. (Revelation 1:12-18; Psalm 139:1-16; Acts 17:28; John 1:1-3, etc.)

We must trust also in order to love God. He will not compel us to love Him. Were He to stand in front of us in all His glory, however, revealing Himself in all His awesome wonder and power, we could not willingly choose to interact with Him. The weight of His presence would drive us to our knees (if it didn't consume us entirely) and compel from us an acknowledgment of His supremacy and right to rule us. But this acknowledgment would not come necessarily from hearts willingly yielded to Him in love. Not at all. Being compelled to admit something doesn't mean we are glad to admit it. In fact, if we only make an admission under compulsion, is this not so because we do not want to make it? Likewise, if God were to appear and force us, by doing so, to accept Him as God.

Giving us the freedom to choose to trust and love Him requires, then, that God not "show up" in an open, direct, full-blown way. Unlike us, He is too great, too awesome, to appear to us as He truly is. Instead, He gives us glimpses of Himself in Creation, and in the special revelation of Himself in His word, intervening here and there in our affairs, fulfilling His promises to His children, changing them, teaching them, filling them with Himself, making of them "little Christs" in whom He can be seen. In all of this, though, He calls us to trust Him, to believe in Him, to have faith in who He is and what He's done - and will do - for us; for we cannot know Him and love Him otherwise.
Click to expand...
Please provide the scripture that says God wants us to know him and commune with Him so BADLY. Where does GOd say that He badly wants us to know Him and commune with Him? Where does God say He wants us to know Him and commune with Him even mildly?
 
Tenchi, you wrote, ". "Be a doer of the word and not a hearer only." (James 1:22; James 2:22) Only when a Christian puts their full weight upon God's truth, counting on it, holding it as true regardless of feeling or experience, will they see His truth bear fruit in their living. So, the faith of a born-again believer is not to be blind, resting on nothing, nor is it to be a thing only of the mind, mere intellectual assent, divorced from corresponding action."

What I have to point out is this scripture specifically says "be a doer of the word" and what you made out of this is be a THINKER of the word, not a doer. How so, you ask? You wrote that a Christian out to "put their full weight upon God's truth, counting on it and holding it" which is clearly not doing but thinking. You assume that merely by thinking right thoughts, that is thinking the Bible is true, one will bear fruit. You do mention "corresponding action" as a parting few words, but clearly the weight is THINKING. Can you show me where in scripture that if one THINKS what Jesus taught (not doing it) one will bear fruit? All of the fruit that Paul wrote of are character qualities.

I woke up thinking of that new Christian who asked for advise. What an old believer told him was vague "spend time with Jesus" words and that sort of thing. What I say is read the Bible and start doing the teachings of Jesus. This is something few will tell him but it is actually the only way to bear fruit and to grow in the faith. He who does the word has faith. He who only reads it and then forgets it when he comes to making choices as to how to treat others, does not.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Please provide the scripture that says God wants us to know him and commune with Him so BADLY.
Click to expand...

??? Why? I didn't actually assert that He did. Do you know what a rhetorical interlocutor is? That's who was speaking when I wrote, "Again and again God's word enjoins the one who would know and walk with God to exert faith, belief, trust in Him.

Why? If God wants us to know and commune with Him so badly, why doesn't He just appear and interact with us as one of us?"

Dorothy Mae said:
Where does God say He wants us to know Him and commune with Him even mildly?
Click to expand...

??? Why did God send His Son to die for you and me?

For the matter of fellowship with God see: 1 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 13:14; 1 John 1:3.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
What I have to point out is this scripture specifically says "be a doer of the word" and what you made out of this is be a THINKER of the word, not a doer.
Click to expand...

Not so. Read again what I wrote:

"So, the faith of a born-again believer is not to be blind, resting on nothing, nor is it to be a thing only of the mind, mere intellectual assent, divorced from corresponding action."
Dorothy Mae said:
You wrote that a Christian out to "put their full weight upon God's truth, counting on it and holding it" which is clearly not doing but thinking. You assume that merely by thinking right thoughts, that is thinking the Bible is true, one will bear fruit.
Click to expand...

It is, as Paul described, an integral part of how faith works. One does not act apart from thought - especially in matters of spiritual belief and conduct.

Dorothy Mae said:
You do mention "corresponding action" as a parting few words, but clearly the weight is THINKING.
Click to expand...

No, this is an emphasis YOU are giving my words; an emphasis born, I suppose, of a beef you've got with Christians not acting out their faith as much as you think they should. I did not tack on a "few parting words" about faith working out in action.

"Faith, according to Paul, begins with knowledge, then becomes a settled confidence in the truth of that knowledge and then, concludes with action reflecting one's knowledge and belief. A believer's faith is always fully exercised, or completed, in action. "Be a doer of the word and not a hearer only." (James 1:22; James 2:22) Only when a Christian puts their full weight upon God's truth, counting on it, holding it as true regardless of feeling or experience, will they see His truth bear fruit in their living. So, the faith of a born-again believer is not to be blind, resting on nothing, nor is it to be a thing only of the mind, mere intellectual assent, divorced from corresponding action."
Repeatedly, I emphasized that faith is reflected in action in the above paragraph. How this worked out as a "few parting words" in your mind, I don't know, but the reality of the content of what I wrote is distinctly different from the impression you got from it.

Dorothy Mae said:
Can you show me where in scripture that if one THINKS what Jesus taught (not doing it) one will bear fruit? All of the fruit that Paul wrote of are character qualities.
Click to expand...

You can't chop up Paul's "faith equation": Knowledge (I know whom I have believed)>belief (I am persuaded)>action (I have committed unto him). Take out any part of this "equation" and faith falls apart. Knowledge and thought, then, are necessary prerequisites to action.

Dorothy Mae said:
What I say is read the Bible and start doing the teachings of Jesus.
Click to expand...

This can easily become moralism. Do you know how such a consequence is avoided, Dorothy Mae?
 
Tenchi said:
Not so. Read again what I wrote:

"So, the faith of a born-again believer is not to be blind, resting on nothing, nor is it to be a thing only of the mind, mere intellectual assent, divorced from corresponding action."
Click to expand...
You have greater emphasis on Thinking Than doing which got only two words with no specifics. But I did mention that honorable mention of corresponding action.
Tenchi said:
It is, as Paul described, an integral part of how faith works. One does not act apart from thought - especially in matters of spiritual belief and conduct.
Click to expand...
True, there are thoughts of our desire and thoughts of his and they aren’t the same.
Tenchi said:
No, this is an emphasis YOU are giving my words; an emphasis born, I suppose, of a beef you've got with Christians not acting out their faith as much as you think they should.
Click to expand...
Incorrect. I have no beef. Please do not employ the personal ad hominem. Please stick to the argument and not drag in some dishonorable motivation on my part.
Tenchi said:
I did not tack on a "few parting words" about faith working out in action.

"Faith, according to Paul, begins with knowledge, then becomes a settled confidence in the truth of that knowledge and then, concludes with action reflecting one's knowledge and belief. A believer's faith is always fully exercised, or completed, in action. "Be a doer of the word and not a hearer only." (James 1:22; James 2:22) Only when a Christian puts their full weight upon God's truth, counting on it, holding it as true regardless of feeling or experience, will they see His truth bear fruit in their living. So, the faith of a born-again believer is not to be blind, resting on nothing, nor is it to be a thing only of the mind, mere intellectual assent, divorced from corresponding action."
Repeatedly, I emphasized that faith is reflected in action in the above paragraph. How this worked out as a "few parting words" in your mind, I don't know, but the reality of the content of what I wrote is distinctly different from the impression you got from it.
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I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, but can you supply examples?
Tenchi said:
You can't chop up Paul's "faith equation": Knowledge (I know whom I have believed)>belief (I am persuaded)>action (I have committed unto him). Take out any part of this "equation" and faith falls apart. Knowledge and thought, then, are necessary prerequisites to action.
Click to expand...
Well, when a man’s life choices are equal with Paul’s in dedication then he will know. But do you see what you did? You equated “action” not with doing or obedience but the mental gymnastics of “committed” which by definition is not action.
Tenchi said:
This can easily become moralism. Do you know how such a consequence is avoided, Dorothy Mae?
Click to expand...
When a believer has chosen to do the known will of God so often that God sees reveals himself just as Jesus said they would, that man has avoided moralism.
 
Strife is not faith.

Faith with knowledge is not a living faith.

Faith begins in love, charity edifies, knowledge does the opposite, it puffs up ( evidenced in their debating and strife)

Charity believes all things, of the love that Christ had for us, we love Him ( or we do not love Him and have a faith without being kind, loving, merciful.)

When people speak in strife and envy, they show they are the very opposing to charity ( belief) which envies not and is not puffed up.




1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.



1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

1 Corinthians 13:7 ( charity) Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

1 Corinthians 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
 
gordon777 said:
Strife is not faith.
Click to expand...

No, it's not.

gordon777 said:
Faith with knowledge is not a living faith.
Click to expand...

??? I have no idea what this means...

gordon777 said:
Faith begins in love, charity edifies, knowledge does the opposite, it puffs up ( evidenced in their debating and strife)
Click to expand...

Can you supply a Bible verse that says what you have here? About the "faith begins in love" statement. Knowledge - especially for its own sake - might puff up a person but it doesn't necessarily do so. We would not have the Bible, given to us by God, filled with knowledge, if it was certain that knowledge always puffs up. God would not have given us His word and all the knowledge it contains if it was just going to make us all puffed up. God hates pride, right?

Debating is important. It is a vital means of getting at the truth of things and testing the soundness of one's reasoning. The one who shrinks from debate - especially when they make doing so a virtue and debate an evil thing - is really just protecting the weakness of their views.

gordon777 said:
Charity believes all things, of the love that Christ had for us, we love Him ( or we do not love Him and have a faith without being kind, loving, merciful.)
Click to expand...

You need to read Matthew 23, or 1 Corinthians 5, or Jude.

gordon777 said:
When people speak in strife and envy, they show they are the very opposing to charity ( belief) which envies not and is not puffed up.
Click to expand...

Well, is what you are calling "strife and envy" actually these things? Or is it just the natural negotiation toward the Truth that goes on among human beings?
 
Faith begins in love, charity edifies, knowledge does the opposite, it puffs up ( evidenced in their debating and strife)

Charity believes all things, of the love that Christ had for us, we love Him ( or we do not love Him and have a faith without being kind, loving, merciful.)





Yes you need to read how we know of the love Christ had for us, ( faith in His love for us) so that we believe also on loving one another.

When we love one another, it is because God dwells in us, because He has given of His Spirit ( when Christ gave His life for us and was glorified.)

We know and believe the love that God has for us ( the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.) that we believe and confess ( believing first in that love God has for us)

Also we love Christ, because ( we now have believed) that He first loved us.

1 John 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.



That is the edifying of charity ( love) and why charity ( love first) believes all things. ( knowledge without charity puffs up, and believes nothing, as charity is not puffed up, because it believes in the love of Christ, not in ourselves, as knowledge without charity does.)

Charity is kind, and merciful, as charity ( love) believes in the kindness and love of our Saviour, the Lord God Jesus Christ.





1 Corinthians 13:7 ( charity) Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

1 Corinthians 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,





Faith with knowledge is not a living faith.



Living faith, is believing in the risen living Lord, believing in His love to die for us, and His life that overcomes death. ( it is called the knowledge of salvation. Luke 1:77.)





If you have a little difficulty with breaking off discussions (only useful for strife), let me assist you a little in that.




Proverbs 20:3 It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.
 
Tenchi said:
Debating is important. It is a vital means of getting at the truth of things and testing the soundness of one's reasoning. The one who shrinks from debate - especially when they make doing so a virtue and debate an evil thing - is really just protecting the weakness of their views.
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Debating is important to God, to not do it.

Reading 2 Corinthians 12, we also see that it is not edifying at all.




Isaiah 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

2 Corinthians 12:19 Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying.
20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
 
To know the love of Christ is to know what passes knowledge ( this is the fulness of God, His love and Spirit)

Also it is clear when someone does not have that Spirit, love and understanding of the love of Christ in them, why else do they dispute it, not confess it and must deny it. ( it never was anything to debate over.)



Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
 
Faith is in belief of the love of Christ.

Which is in belief of His meekness, His weakness. ( 2 Corinthians 13:4.)

Not in the character of wolves, but of sheep, as Christ as a lamb was sent to the slaughter for us. ( Acts 8:32.)




Avoiding the examples of the fierce, natural brute beasts ( devil beast, and followers)



Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

2 Timothy 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.




Resisting the truth is what the fierce brute beasts do, following their king of a fierce countenance.




2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.


2 Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
 
gordon777 said:
Faith begins in love, charity edifies, knowledge does the opposite, it puffs up ( evidenced in their debating and strife)
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Again, where does the Bible say, "Faith begins in love"? And, again, the Bible contains knowledge. A lot of knowledge. Is it just going to puff up everyone who reads it, then?

gordon777 said:
Charity believes all things, of the love that Christ had for us, we love Him ( or we do not love Him and have a faith without being kind, loving, merciful.)
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I've no idea what your point is here...

gordon777 said:
Yes you need to read how we know of the love Christ had for us, ( faith in His love for us) so that we believe also on loving one another.
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But this is knowledge you're talking about here, which you said "puffs up." Could it be that taking in knowledge doesn't always puff up?

gordon777 said:
That is the edifying of charity ( love) and why charity ( love first) believes all things. ( knowledge without charity puffs up, and believes nothing, as charity is not puffed up, because it believes in the love of Christ, not in ourselves, as knowledge without charity does.)
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I'm still unclear as to your point in all this.

gordon777 said:
Faith with knowledge is not a living faith.



Living faith, is believing in the risen living Lord, believing in His love to die for us, and His life that overcomes death. ( it is called the knowledge of salvation. Luke 1:77.)
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Well, now you're just contradicting yourself. How does one believe in the risen Lord if they don't know about him? But knowing about him is to take in knowledge about him, which you say is not part of a "living faith." If this is so, if gaining knowledge about Christ makes our faith dead - which it must if knowledge prohibits a "living faith" - then no one who knows about Christ has a "living faith" in him. Do you really believe this?

gordon777 said:
If you have a little difficulty with breaking off discussions (only useful for strife), let me assist you a little in that.
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I have no problem breaking off discussions. But its not your place to tell me when/if that should happen. The decision is mine, not yours, to make.

gordon777 said:
Debating is important to God, to not do it.
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Nope. You will find nowhere in Scripture a prohibition of debating. Useless striving over pointless questions, yes, that is prohibited. But the back-and-forth between people by which they test and evaluate their own ideas and those of others is vital to getting at the truth of things. This is what happens in a courtroom; it is what happens between scientists as they research and propose theoretical models and argue over the merits of these things; it is what happens when a couple has lost their hiking route map and have to decide which path to follow. It is just silly to say in these instances where debate is vital to finding the truth to say that God forbids debate. So, too, among believers who are trying to sharpen and deepen their understanding of God's truth.

gordon777 said:
Isaiah 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
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The word debate is better rendered "quarrel" or "contention," as it is in other translations:

Isaiah 58:4 (NASB)
4 "Behold, you fast for contention and strife and to strike with a wicked fist. You do not fast like you do today to make your voice heard on high.

"Contention and strife" and "striking with a wicked fist" are not debate, though debate may become mere contentiousness. By what standard do you determine when this is so? You seem to be operating on the basis of personal preference in your criticism of debate in this thread. Why should any of us be constrained by what you prefer?

gordon777 said:
Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
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Again, other translations don't use "debate" in this verse:

Romans 1:29 (NASB)
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,

Here is a better, more precise, rendering of the Greek word "eris." And the same is true of 2 Corinthians 12:20:

2 Corinthians 12:20 (NASB)
20 For I am afraid that perhaps when I come I may find you to be not what I wish and may be found by you to be not what you wish; that perhaps there will be strife, jealousy, angry tempers, disputes, slanders, gossip, arrogance, disturbances;

Neither verse forbids productive debate that is often necessary to discovering the Truth, only strife which has to do with being contentious, and divisive, and angry.

gordon777 said:
To know the love of Christ is to know what passes knowledge ( this is the fulness of God, His love and Spirit)
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If a thing passes knowledge, goes beyond it, that thing cannot be (fully) known. To know the love of Christ, then, is to know his love only in part, as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 13:9. This is what Paul is saying in Ephesians 3:19.

I don't know what you mean in your parenthetical remark. What is the "fulness of God, His love and Spirit"? Knowing the love of Christ? The love of Christ itself? Both? What do you mean by "fulness"?

gordon777 said:
Also it is clear when someone does not have that Spirit, love and understanding of the love of Christ in them, why else do they dispute it, not confess it and must deny it. ( it never was anything to debate over.)
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??? Who has done this?

gordon777 said:
Faith is in belief of the love of Christ.
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A Christian is a man (or woman) who has believed the love God has for him, yes (1 John 4:16). But all Christian faith is not solely in the love of God for mankind. There are many other things Christians believe besides God love of them.

gordon777 said:
Which is in belief of His meekness, His weakness. ( 2 Corinthians 13:4.)
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2 Corinthians 13:4 (NASB)
4 For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you.

A Christian believes that Christ set aside his heavenly glory and power to die on a cross for their sin. This is the "weakness" in which he was crucified (Philippians 2:5-8). In love, he willingly chose to die in this "weakness," becoming one of us in order that he might bear our iniquities and save us from ourselves.

gordon777 said:
Not in the character of wolves, but of sheep, as Christ as a lamb was sent to the slaughter for us. ( Acts 8:32.)
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Jesus was never a sheep. He is the "Good Shepherd" who gave His life for the sheep (John 10:11) Only insofar as he was a sacrifice was Christ a "lamb without spot or blemish" (1 Peter 1:19). But in his nature, Jesus was never a sheep.
But in any case, what is your point? Who is playing the wolf in this thread? No one.

gordon777 said:
Avoiding the examples of the fierce, natural brute beasts
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Jesus is called the Lion of Judah. (Revelation 5:5)

gordon777 said:
2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.




Resisting the truth is what the fierce brute beasts do, following their king of a fierce countenance.
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You're mishandling Scripture here. "Natural brute beasts" in the first verse are mentioned in connection with their being "taken and destroyed," like a cow or ox to a slaughterhouse. In the second verse, they are mentioned in connection with a "natural knowledge," or instinct. Neither verse speaks of "fierce brute beasts" nor makes any connection to "brute beasts" and immoral behavior. You appear to have simply found the phrase "brute beast" in two verses and made your own meaning of the phrase, ignoring entirely in what connection a reference to such beasts was made. Wow. Who taught you to handle God's word this way?
 
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