“the fivefold ministry†of Ephesians 4:11,

[P31Woman]

Do any of you know about this?

 

[ezra]

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

 

[P31Woman]

I had never head of this before tonight. This is the clearest explaination I have found. It's from equip.org.

The Faulty Foundation of the Five-Fold Ministry

It has recently become popular to speak of “the five-fold ministry,” a system of church government with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. The neo-Pentecostal “Restoration” movement and its offshoot, “Kingdom now” teaching, claims that one of the things which God is “restoring” to the church is this five-fold ministry.

The sole proof text used to support this concept is Ephesians 4:11-13, which states that Christ gave “some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,….until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the full knowledge of the Son of God.” The word “until,” it is argued, proves that the church today needs apostles and prophets as much as evangelists, pastors, and teachers.

However, it is the “building up” of the church (v.12) which must continue until the church is mature, not all five of the offices listed in verse 11. This is clear when the whole text is read as follows: “And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers; [these offices were given] to equip the saints for the work of service, [which work has as its goal] to build up the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith….” The offices of apostle and prophet would naturally cease in the church once their role in “equipping the saints” was completed; that is, once the New Testament canon was completed.

Some have objected that there is no reason to bracket off the apostles and prophets from the other three offices listed in verse 11. However, in the very same epistle, Paul states that the church has “been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets” (Eph. 2:20) and that Christ’s mystery concerning the church was “revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit” (3:5). These statements indicate that the role of apostles and prophets was fulfilled in the first century.

The New Testament is particularly clear about the temporary role of the apostles, since they were chosen to give eyewitness testimony of the risen Christ (Acts 1:21-26; 5:32; Luke 1:104; 1 Cor. 9:1). Paul indicated that he was the last person to see the risen Christ and receive an apostolic commission (1 Cor. 15:8). The epistles of 2 Peter and Jude, among the very last New Testament writings to be penned, exhort the readers to avoid false doctrines by recalling the teachings of the apostles (2 Pet.1:12-15; 2:1; 3:2, 14-16; Jude 3-4, 17). Peter and Jude did not say, “Listen to the apostles living today,” but instead urged believers to “remember what the apostles said.”

I am not arguing that only the Twelve and Paul were apostles. Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Silas (1 Thess. 2:6; cf. 1:1), and Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7) all were apostles of Christ, and thus were no doubt among the more than 500 witnesses to the Resurrection (1 Cor. 15:6). However, none of these persons was chosen as a successor to an earlier apostle (Matthias was Judas’s replacement, not his successor, since Judas had forsaken his apostleship, Acts 1:21-26).

There are other senses in which the word “apostle” is used in the New Testament. Certain individuals, including Epaphroditus, were “apostles of the churches” (2 Cor. 8:23; Phil. 2:25). These “apostles” had no authority over the church; they were messengers sent by and subject to their churches. In this latter sense it would be perfectly legitimate to speak of church representatives as “apostles,” were it not for the confusion which might result from such usage.
Therefore, in the usual biblical sense of the term, there are no apostles today. Nor are there any prophets in the usual sense, as they were part of the “foundation” laid in the first-century church. This is not to deny the continuing validity of the gift of “prophecy,” since Paul does refer to prophesying as a basic activity in which all Christians are urged to participate to the extent God gifts them (Rom. 12:6; 1 Cor. 11:4-5; 12:10; 13:2, 8-9; 14:1-6, 20-33; 1 Thess. 5:20), and in a general functional sense persons exercising this gift are even called “prophets” (1 Cor. 14:32,37). Yet Paul also speaks of specific persons who occupied an office of “prophet” which was second in authority only to apostle (1 Cor. 12:28-29). It is this office of “prophet,” not all prophecy, which I am arguing passed away around the end of the first century.

Finally, some errors on this matter are worse than others. The loose use of the word “apostle” to refer to missionaries or church planters is not a serious error as long as this usage is sharply distinguished from the concept of an apostle who brings new doctrinal revelations and wields unquestionable authority. Nor is it a grievous error to interpret Ephesians 4:11 to refer to “apostles” in this sense of a church planter. The same would apply to those who hold that Ephesians 4:11 refers to the ongoing charismatic activity of prophesying. I do believe these interpretations are mistaken, but they are not in any way antagonistic to Christian faith.

On the other hand, to interpret Ephesians 4:11 as a call for a restoration of the office of apostle of Christ is not only a mistake in exegesis, it opens the door to heresy. To claim that the church today needs visions and revelations through modern apostles and prophets of Christ is to deny the sufficiency of the Bible (2 Tim. 3:16) and to place the church at the mercy of false apostles, the likes of whom the apostle Paul warned us about in no uncertain terms (2 Cor. 11:13-15).

The teachers of the “five-fold ministry,” in seeking to “restore” a foundation which has never been moved, are actually laying a false foundation which will not support the building up of the body of Christ.

__________
end of copy

Now I need to find out what "Kingdom now" is.

 

[AirDancer]

You'll find a lot of information about the Kingdom Now movement with a quick search for Kansas City Latter Rain movement ... false teachers, all

 

[Slider]

On another thread I recently referred to Eph 4:11 and noted that there were 5 parts of the ministry, but I don't remember if I called it "the fivefold ministry". Just to clear things up, I didn't get it from a "Kingdom Now" group or anything like that. It was brought to my attention by my Pastor and the Bible.

 

[Agape]

Now I need to find out what "Kingdom now" is.

Kingdom Now theology is a theological belief within the Charismatic movement of Protestant Christianity, mainly in the United States. Kingdom Now proponents believe that God lost control over the world to Satan when Adam and Eve sinned. Since then, the theology goes, God has been trying to reestablish control over the world by seeking a special group of believers—known variously as "covenant people," "overcomers," or "Joel's army"—and that through these people, social institutions (including governments and laws) would be brought under God's authority. The belief is that, since believers are indwelt by the same Holy Spirit that indwelt Jesus, we have all authority in heaven and on the earth; we have the power to believe for and speak into existence things that are not, and thus we can bring about the Kingdom Age.

Among the most controversial tenets of the theology is the belief that secular or non-Christian society will never succeed. Hence, Kingdom Now opposes a separation of church and state. Other beliefs include the idea that, as the Body of Christ, we are Christ. In other words, we have His divine nature. Proponents of Kingdom Now teaching also don’t believe in the rapture, which is explained away as a feeling of rapture or excitement when the Lord returns to receive the kingdom from our hands. In other words, everyone will be "caught up" emotionally when He returns. Also among the unbiblical beliefs is the idea that all prophecies regarding future Israel—both in the Old and New Testaments—actually apply to the church.

Kingdom Now theology sees the second coming of Jesus in two stages: first through the flesh of the believers (and in particular the flesh of today's apostles and prophets), and then in person to take over the kingdom handed to Him by those who have been victorious (the "overcomers"). Prior to the second coming, overcomers must purge the earth of all evil influences. Kingdom Now claims that Jesus cannot return until all His enemies have been put under the feet of the church (including death, presumably).

Although there are people who believe in some, but not all, of Kingdom Now teachings, they do have in common the beliefs outlined above, all of which are outside of mainstream Christianity and all of which deny Scripture. First, the idea that God has “lost control†of anything is ludicrous, especially coupled with the idea that He needs human beings to help Him regain that control. He is the sovereign Lord of the universe, complete and holy, perfect in all His attributes. He has complete control over all things—past, present and future—and nothing happens outside His command. Everything is proceeding according to His divine plan and purpose, and not one molecule is moving on its own accord. “For Jehovah of Hosts has purposed, and who shall reverse it? And His hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?†(Isaiah 14:27). As for men having “the power to believe for and speak into existence things that are not,†that power belongs to God alone, who doesn’t take kindly to those who would attempt to usurp it from Him. “Remember this, and be a man; return it on your heart, O sinners. Remember former things from forever; for I am God, and no other is God, even none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from the past things which were not done, saying, ‘My purpose shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure’; calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my purpose from a far country. Yes, I have spoken, I will also cause it to come; I have formed; yes, I will do it†(Isa 46:8-11).

Kingdom Now’s denial of the rapture of the church is also unbiblical. The explanation that the rapture is nothing more than the people of God being caught up in rapturous feelings ignores the fact that such an application of the term "caught up" is strictly an idiomatic expression peculiar to English, not Greek. "I was all 'caught up' in the movie (or other excitement)†is not the equivalent of harpazo, used to describe the catching up bodily into heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 12:2-4; and Revelation 12:5. The word is also used in Acts 8:39, where Phillip is bodily "caught away" by the Spirit to another location.

As for our being Christ and having divine nature, we are not Christ, although we do partake of His divine nature at salvation with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:4). But Christ is the second Person of the Godhead, and no one becomes God. This is a lie from the father of lies, Satan, who first told it in the Garden of Eden when he tempted Eve with “you shall be as God†(Genesis 3:5).

The idea that the church has replaced Israel and that the fulfillment of the prophecies to Israel pertain to the church is known as Replacement theology, and it is unbiblical. The promises to Israel will be fulfilled in Israel, not in the church. God’s blessings to Israel are eternal, and they are without recall.

Finally, the second coming of Christ will be when He, not men, defeats His enemies and puts all things under His feet. The description of the second coming in Revelation 19 is the description of a mighty warrior who comes to put all things to right, not of one who comes to an earth already cleaned up and ready for Him to rule. Verse 15 is clear: “And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God.†If the earth has been “purged of all evil influences,†as the Kingdom Now-ers believe, why does Christ need a sharp sword to strike the nations, and why does the anger and wrath of God still exist against them?

Kingdom Now theology is another in a long line false, unbiblical, and misleading philosophies of men whose vain imaginations seek to humanize God and deify man. It is to be avoided.


Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/kingdom-now.html#ixzz2MHtXlfFh

 

[JLB]

I had never head of this before tonight. This is the clearest explaination I have found. It's from equip.org.

The Faulty Foundation of the Five-Fold Ministry

It has recently become popular to speak of “the five-fold ministry,†a system of church government with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. The neo-Pentecostal “Restoration†movement and its offshoot, “Kingdom now†teaching, claims that one of the things which God is “restoring†to the church is this five-fold ministry.

The sole proof text used to support this concept is Ephesians 4:11-13, which states that Christ gave “some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,….until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the full knowledge of the Son of God.†The word “until,†it is argued, proves that the church today needs apostles and prophets as much as evangelists, pastors, and teachers.

However, it is the “building up†of the church (v.12) which must continue until the church is mature, not all five of the offices listed in verse 11. This is clear when the whole text is read as follows: “And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers; [these offices were given] to equip the saints for the work of service, [which work has as its goal] to build up the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith….†The offices of apostle and prophet would naturally cease in the church once their role in “equipping the saints†was completed; that is, once the New Testament canon was completed.

Some have objected that there is no reason to bracket off the apostles and prophets from the other three offices listed in verse 11. However, in the very same epistle, Paul states that the church has “been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets†(Eph. 2:20) and that Christ’s mystery concerning the church was “revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit†(3:5). These statements indicate that the role of apostles and prophets was fulfilled in the first century.

The New Testament is particularly clear about the temporary role of the apostles, since they were chosen to give eyewitness testimony of the risen Christ (Acts 1:21-26; 5:32; Luke 1:104; 1 Cor. 9:1). Paul indicated that he was the last person to see the risen Christ and receive an apostolic commission (1 Cor. 15:8). The epistles of 2 Peter and Jude, among the very last New Testament writings to be penned, exhort the readers to avoid false doctrines by recalling the teachings of the apostles (2 Pet.1:12-15; 2:1; 3:2, 14-16; Jude 3-4, 17). Peter and Jude did not say, “Listen to the apostles living today,†but instead urged believers to “remember what the apostles said.â€

I am not arguing that only the Twelve and Paul were apostles. Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Silas (1 Thess. 2:6; cf. 1:1), and Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7) all were apostles of Christ, and thus were no doubt among the more than 500 witnesses to the Resurrection (1 Cor. 15:6). However, none of these persons was chosen as a successor to an earlier apostle (Matthias was Judas’s replacement, not his successor, since Judas had forsaken his apostleship, Acts 1:21-26).

There are other senses in which the word “apostle†is used in the New Testament. Certain individuals, including Epaphroditus, were “apostles of the churches†(2 Cor. 8:23; Phil. 2:25). These “apostles†had no authority over the church; they were messengers sent by and subject to their churches. In this latter sense it would be perfectly legitimate to speak of church representatives as “apostles,†were it not for the confusion which might result from such usage.
Therefore, in the usual biblical sense of the term, there are no apostles today. Nor are there any prophets in the usual sense, as they were part of the “foundation†laid in the first-century church. This is not to deny the continuing validity of the gift of “prophecy,†since Paul does refer to prophesying as a basic activity in which all Christians are urged to participate to the extent God gifts them (Rom. 12:6; 1 Cor. 11:4-5; 12:10; 13:2, 8-9; 14:1-6, 20-33; 1 Thess. 5:20), and in a general functional sense persons exercising this gift are even called “prophets†(1 Cor. 14:32,37). Yet Paul also speaks of specific persons who occupied an office of “prophet†which was second in authority only to apostle (1 Cor. 12:28-29). It is this office of “prophet,†not all prophecy, which I am arguing passed away around the end of the first century.

Finally, some errors on this matter are worse than others. The loose use of the word “apostle†to refer to missionaries or church planters is not a serious error as long as this usage is sharply distinguished from the concept of an apostle who brings new doctrinal revelations and wields unquestionable authority. Nor is it a grievous error to interpret Ephesians 4:11 to refer to “apostles†in this sense of a church planter. The same would apply to those who hold that Ephesians 4:11 refers to the ongoing charismatic activity of prophesying. I do believe these interpretations are mistaken, but they are not in any way antagonistic to Christian faith.

On the other hand, to interpret Ephesians 4:11 as a call for a restoration of the office of apostle of Christ is not only a mistake in exegesis, it opens the door to heresy. To claim that the church today needs visions and revelations through modern apostles and prophets of Christ is to deny the sufficiency of the Bible (2 Tim. 3:16) and to place the church at the mercy of false apostles, the likes of whom the apostle Paul warned us about in no uncertain terms (2 Cor. 11:13-15).

The teachers of the “five-fold ministry,†in seeking to “restore†a foundation which has never been moved, are actually laying a false foundation which will not support the building up of the body of Christ.

__________
end of copy

Now I need to find out what "Kingdom now" is.

“equipping the saints†was completed; that is, once the New Testament canon was completed.

...that is, once the New Testament canon was completed?


And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16

Notice carefully this following phrase -

that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

It takes people equipped by God in these positions, "five-fold" ministry, to help the body of Christ Mature in Christ and the New Testament canon.

A good example of the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,would be to an article written by someone trying to "explain" that the "five-fold ministry" is no longer needed since we have the new Testament canon.

When it is abundantly clear that now more than ever there is a great need for clarity in scripture since there is so many "winds of false doctrine" blowing against the Church in these last days.


JLB

 

[JCitoL]

simply there are different spiritual vocations/missions, some may become apostles, some prophets, some preachers, other witnesses, etc., but not every believer may become any of these things, and not every human may become a believer - that's all

1 Corinthians 12:28-31 "God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way."

Blessings

 

[ezra]

But covet earnestly the best gifts:

what is the gifts for the Edifying of the Body of Christ.... to many claim the gifts to edify self... this is big reason for controversial over the Gifts of the Spirit. you watch T.V and see so much junk its unreal . if God is in it will done decently and in order .i attended a rev service about a month ago at a assembly of GOD church.. enjoyed it very much one night after the altar of prayer it went dead silent... soon one person spoke in tongues then it went silent again then the interrupter spoke silence again.. this was a 1st for me in a church service ..i have been in many service tongues was used... but never with a interrupter..which is how it should be done . when guys like Benny hinn take a seat jacket off twirl it around. folks fall out in the spirit of not sure? i question this ..with so much fake when we hear of healing we soon scarf at it.. personally i believe in all the Gifts

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

God does not need to “restore” apostles and prophets to the Church in order to bring us to perfection. No one apart from the lunatic fringe has ever claimed such a thing until the advent of the neo-Montanist movement. Paul, John, Peter and the other apostles laid the foundation, they received the Word of God and the canon is closed. The Scriptures are all we need as our guide for faith and practice and anything which is not in accord with the context of the Bible is to be rejected as false doctrine and false practice. These deceivers insult the authority of the Scriptures by their claim to additional revelation and restoration and what is worse they insult the Author of the Scripture and the Holy Spirit Himself. The so-called restored apostles and prophets are on very dangerous ground indeed and the Church needs to mark them and sound a warning to our brothers and sisters not to be led astray by such people.

 

[JCitoL]

what is the gifts for the Edifying of the Body of Christ.... to many claim the gifts to edify self... this is big reason for controversial over the Gifts of the Spirit. you watch T.V and see so much junk its unreal . if God is in it will done decently and in order .i attended a rev service about a month ago at a assembly of GOD church.. enjoyed it very much one night after the altar of prayer it went dead silent... soon one person spoke in tongues then it went silent again then the interrupter spoke silence again.. this was a 1st for me in a church service ..i have been in many service tongues was used... but never with a interrupter..which is how it should be done . when guys like Benny hinn take a seat jacket off twirl it around. folks fall out in the spirit of not sure? i question this ..with so much fake when we hear of healing we soon scarf at it.. personally i believe in all the Gifts

what are the gifts of the Holy Spirit?!, it is seen in the New Testament books that the people who have the Holy Spirit: cast out the evil spirits from the possessed, heal the sick, resurrect the dead, prophesy the true Word(i.e. testify It explaining It thoroughly), preach the Gospel, fend for the people in trouble/distress/destitution/affliction/danger, speak and write in foreign language(s) so as to be useful to the God's work in the Church and the Testimony, speak in tongues(i.e. receive and express and even may understand secret messages from the Spirit), interpret the Scripture, interpret tongues, etc., but the most helpful gift is the effective ability to invoke, pray, intercede, and solicit (before) the true God and Jesus for the salvation of the unsaved people/souls, while with regard to the disorder, it is not right to be inflicted

Blessings

 

[JLB]

God does not need to “restore†apostles and prophets to the Church in order to bring us to perfection. No one apart from the lunatic fringe has ever claimed such a thing until the advent of the neo-Montanist movement. They laid the foundation, they received the Word of God and the canon is closed. The Scriptures are all we need as our guide for faith and practice and anything which is not in accord with the context of the Bible is to be rejected as false doctrine and false practice. These deceivers insult the authority of the Scriptures by their claim to additional revelation and restoration and what is worse they insult the Author of the Scripture and the Holy Spirit Himself. The so-called restored apostles and prophets are on very dangerous ground indeed and the Church needs to mark them and sound a warning to our brothers and sisters not to be led astray by such people.

The Scriptures are all we need as our guide for faith and practice and anything which is not in accord with the context of the Bible is to be rejected as false doctrine and false practice.

It is statements like this that prove that we desperately need mature, proven five-fold ministry leadership, now more that ever.

The above statement is a perfect example as to why.

... that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting.

We have the "canon" yet many are still lingering in immaturity and are blown around by the winds of false doctrine because of the lack of mature and sound guidance in the ways of Christ, as well as the scriptures.

We have the "canon" but are lacking those that truly walk with Christ and are led by His Spirit as examples.

It stakes someone who has been Discipled, who truly has Christ formed in them in order to reproduce Him in others.

A person can not reproduce something that they themselves are not.

That is the key phrase in Ephesians 4 -

...till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

How many people do you see walking in the fulness of what Jesus walked in, and are teaching and equipping others to do the same.

Jesus said -

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

and again -

15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." 19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

and again -

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

• teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
• And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
• the works that I do he will do also

JLB

 

[ezra]

i have no idea about 5 fold ministry ..what i do know is the fields are white ready for harvest . there is a great need for workers in the vineyard ..problem is every body wants to be boss not a worker... apostle one who is called prophet --one might say prophecies the truth.... so these are still in use the big problem is to many self proclaimed ..they boast of the gifts and worship the gifts.

A person can not reproduce something that they themselves are not.

That is the key phrase in Ephesians 4 -

...till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

How many people do you see walking in the fulness of what Jesus walked in, and are teaching and equipping others to do the same.

the key

 

[ezra]

what are the gifts of the Holy Spirit?!, it is seen in the New Testament books that the people who have the Holy Spirit: cast out the evil spirits from the possessed, heal the sick, resurrect the dead, prophesy the true Word(i.e. testify It explaining It thoroughly), preach the Gospel, fend for the people in trouble/distress/destitution/affliction/danger, speak and write in foreign language(s) so as to be useful to the God's work in the Church and the Testimony, speak in tongues(i.e. receive and express and even may understand secret messages from the Spirit), interpret the Scripture, interpret tongues, etc., but the most helpful gift is the effective ability to invoke, pray, intercede, and solicit (before) the true God and Jesus for the salvation of the unsaved people/souls, while with regard to the disorder, it is not right to be inflicted

Blessings

not sure i understand what your saying..

 

[P31Woman]

Thanks folks! This has been a fun study for me.

I first ran across this when looking at an analysis of the organic/simple chruch movement. It appears some groups go off into what is "five fold ministry" and kingdom now false doctrine. I can understand why. They believe in modern day aspotles and prophets and have redefined those roles....I believe they have redefined them to fit their own pet doctrines.



I find no need for modern day prophets. God has give us the complete scripture that is able to equipt us for every good work. 2 Timonthy 3:16-17. God also gave us the warning in Revelation 22 (?) about adding to or taking away from His word.

As far as apostles I find only 14 held that position in scripture. The 12, Mathias and Paul. I also find Paul's defending is apostleship in 2 Corinthians 11-12 which only confirms for me that the apostles died off when those 14 and possible others who were trained by Jesus Himself and were eyewitness of the risen Christ, continued to live. In Acts we are told they devoted themselves the apostles teachings.........that was not just anyone.

 

[Mitspa]

...that is, once the New Testament canon was completed?


And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16

Notice carefully this following phrase -

that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

It takes people equipped by God in these positions, "five-fold" ministry, to help the body of Christ Mature in Christ and the New Testament canon.

A good example of the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,would be to an article written by someone trying to "explain" that the "five-fold ministry" is no longer needed since we have the new Testament canon.

When it is abundantly clear that now more than ever there is a great need for clarity in scripture since there is so many "winds of false doctrine" blowing against the Church in these last days.


JLB

I have read a few post on this last page, this is the first one that seems to understand the meaning and purpose of these scriptures.

Let me sum-up what some believe? after we get the bible the bible is no longer true? Do some of you even think about what nonsense you are trying to teach to others?
According to this logic, when Paul wrote an epistle to a certain church body, when they got that epistle, it no longer means what was written in it?

No! this is the work of satan "did God really say"
So the bible is true, until you have the bible? what nonsense!

Here is another thought on those who claim the Holy Spirit changed after the cannon was decided.
These men went into a meeting "full of the Holy Spirit" and in the power and gifts of God, then when thay came out of this meeting, all that had left them? more nonsense!

If you dont have it, its because you have not ask for it! If you ask, ask in faith. It is the Fathers good pleasure to give the Holy Spirit to those who ask.

 

[P31Woman]

I have read a few post on this last page, this is the first one that seems to understand the meaning and purpose of these scriptures.

Let me sum-up what some believe? after we get the bible the bible is no longer true? Do some of you even think about what nonsense you are trying to teach to others?
According to this logic, when Paul wrote an epistle to a certain church body, when they got that epistle, it no longer means what was written in it?

No! this is the work of satan "did God really say"
So the bible is true, until you have the bible? what nonsense!

Here is another thought on those who claim the Holy Spirit changed after the cannon was decided.
These men went into a meeting "full of the Holy Spirit" and in the power and gifts of God, then when thay came out of this meeting, all that had left them? more nonsense!

If you dont have it, its because you have not ask for it! If you ask, ask in faith. It is the Fathers good pleasure to give the Holy Spirit to those who ask.

It is your claim our cannnon of scripture was closed when Paul wrote the letter the to church in Ephesus?

It is certainly not mine!

 

[Mitspa]

It is your claim our cannnon of scripture was closed when Paul wrote the letter the to church in Ephesus?

It is certainly not mine!

Well that is the logic! that when we get the bible, it is no longer to be accepted as being true.

I account this logic as the work of satan, and anyone who takes any truth out of the Word of God, for any reason is under his control to some degree. All the bible is 100% true at all times! It did not change when a group of religious scribes got together and put together the cannon of accepted scripture. This is just nonsense.

 

[Agape]

I find no need for modern day prophets. God has give us the complete scripture that is able to equipt us for every good work. 2 Timonthy 3:16-17. God also gave us the warning in Revelation 22 (?) about adding to or taking away from His word.

Amen! Revelation 22:18-19

As far as apostles I find only 14 held that position in scripture. The 12, Mathias and Paul. I also find Paul's defending is apostleship in 2 Corinthians 11-12 which only confirms for me that the apostles died off when those 14 and possible others who were trained by Jesus Himself and were eyewitness of the risen Christ, continued to live. In Acts we are told they devoted themselves the apostles teachings.........that was not just anyone.

Even though the apostolic "office" was conferred upon the Twelve and Paul, Jesus indicated that the twelve apostles would judge the twelve tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28). Twelve apostles, twelve tribes.
Judas was replaced because he abandoned the position (Acts 1:20, Psalm 69:25) which was not the case of James (Acts 12:2) who died as a faithful martyr. James was not replaced.

Notice the two qualifications specified for the replacement of Judas in Acts 1:21-22. Peter indicated that the replacement of Judas had to be someone who 1) had accompanied the disciples from the beginning of Jesus' ministry and had seen what the apostles had seen and heard what they have heard, an eyewitness to the miracles and teachings of Jesus; 2) was an eyewitness of Jesus' resurrection.
Even though Paul did not meet the qualifications stipulated above, he was Christ's chosen instrument to carry His name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel (Acts 9:15)

The twelve and Paul were chosen by Christ.

 

[P31Woman]

Well that is the logic! that when we get the bible, it is no longer to be accepted as being true.

I account this logic as the work of satan, and anyone who takes any truth out of the Word of God, for any reason is under his control to some degree. All the bible is 100% true at all times! It did not change when a group of religious scribes got together and put together the cannon of accepted scripture. This is just nonsense.

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, Eph 4:11


Notice I highlighted the word "some". Now by studying all scripture we can figure out how to detect those "some".