“the fivefold ministry†of Ephesians 4:11,

[P31Woman]

Amen! Revelation 22:18-19


Even though the apostolic "office" was conferred upon the Twelve and Paul, Jesus indicated that the twelve apostles would judge the twelve tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28). Twelve apostles, twelve tribes.
Judas was replaced because he abandoned the position (Acts 1:20, Psalm 69:25) which was not the case of James (Acts 12:2) who died as a faithful martyr. James was not replaced.

Notice the two qualifications specified for the replacement of Judas in Acts 1:21-22. Peter indicated that the replacement of Judas had to be someone who 1) had accompanied the disciples from the beginning of Jesus' ministry and had seen what the apostles had seen and heard what they have heard, an eyewitness to the miracles and teachings of Jesus; 2) was an eyewitness of Jesus' resurrection.
Even though Paul did not meet the qualifications stipulated above, he was Christ's chosen instrument to carry His name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel (Acts 9:15)

The twelve and Paul were chosen by Christ.

Good post. Thanks for the Acts 1 passage. Very helpful.

21 “Therefore, from among the men who have accompanied us during the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us— 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day He was taken up from us—from among these, it is necessary that one become a witness with us of His resurrection.â€

23 So they proposed two: Joseph, called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “You, Lord, know the hearts of all; show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take the place in this apostolic service that Judas left to go to his own place.†26 Then they cast lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias. So he was numbered with the 11 apostles.

(HCSB)

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Jesus said “I will build my church” upon Himself, the Rock (Matthew 16:18). We know that the Church is being constructed by no less than God the Son. Furthermore we see in the Scriptures that Jesus is referred to twice as the “Head of the Body” (Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 2:19). What is more He is also referred to as “being the chief cornerstone“ (Ephesians 2:20).

​

Most theologians would agree that The Lord Jesus Christ began to build His Church on the Day of Pentecost. By that time He had already chosen who would be His Apostles and they had received the Holy Spirit (John 20:22). For simplicity’s sake let me just say that the foundation of the Church was laid in the beginning and is detailed for us in the Book of Acts.

Ephesians 2 NASB
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
​

When you build a house you first lay the foundation. The foundation of the Church was laid by the genuine Apostles and Prophets with Christ Jesus as the chief corner stone. Once the foundation has been laid the master builder proceeds to erect the superstructure. He does not continue to build a foundation that is already complete.
​

1 Corinthians 3
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw.
13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
​

This is exactly what the Apostle Paul stated in the text above. He has laid (past tense) the foundation and others build on that foundation, and the result of their building determines their level of reward in heaven. "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." Then Paul goes back to commenting on how one may build on that original foundation.

Jesus Christ is not asleep at the right hand of the Father, but is active and alive among us today. He has been superintending His Church since its inception. He has been building upon the original foundation laid by the original genuine Apostles and Prophets through the faithful ministry of the proclamation of the Gospel and sacraments carried out by evangelists and pastors. I might as well add at this point that the Greek text does not divide pastors and teachers as two gifts but is better-translated pastor-teachers. I acknowledge there are places in Scripture teachers are mentioned apart from pastors, but this text, which the heretics abuse does not even hold forth the concept of a fivefold ministry linguistically! At best, if they wanted to be honest with the text they would have to say God is restoring a fourfold ministry, and that ministry died out as unnecessary at the end of the apostolic age, with John's death, perhaps in the early second century.

I am going to reiterate exactly what I said in the earlier post: God does not need to “restore” apostles and prophets to the Church in order to bring us to perfection. No one apart from the lunatic fringe has ever claimed such a thing until the advent of the neo-Montanist movement. They laid the foundation, they received the Word of God and the canon is closed. The Scriptures are all we need as our guide for faith and practice and anything which is not in accord with the context of the Bible is to be rejected as false doctrine and false practice. These deceivers insult the authority of the Scriptures by their claim to additional revelation and restoration and what is worse they insult the Author of the Scripture and the Holy Spirit Himself. The so-called restored apostles and prophets are on very dangerous ground indeed and the Church needs to mark them and sound a warning to our brothers and sisters not to be led astray by such people​

Romans 16
17 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.​

We're done here.
​

 

[Mitspa]

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, Eph 4:11


Notice I highlighted the word "some". Now by studying all scripture we can figure out how to detect those "some".

I will be glad to set back to your topic, it is a good one!
Paul said that an apostle would have the signs of an apostle.
2 Cor 12:12
Preseverance, signs, wonders and mighty deeds.

So you see, that if satan is allowed to steal away the truth of the Holy Spirit and His Work, a true Apostle of the Lord can not be seen or understood, by a believer.

 

[Mitspa]

So basically some of you do not have the Holy Spirit as the scriptures describe? You have no power, no gifts, but only have form of godliness. And you want to "pretend" to judge the things of God?
So Jude speaks of those who would come in the last days, mockers who do not have the Spirit. who walk after their own ungodly lust. But those of us who have the Spirit are to pray in the Holy Spirit. "tongues"

For if I pray in the Spirit- as Paul wrote

So of course the bible is not accepted as it is written. Which brings me back to my first post on this thread.

The bible does not change when we get the bible. SAME JESUS, SAME SPIRIT, SAME GOSPEL!

 

[P31Woman]

TNID and AGAPE

What do you think about this? This is what got me started on this topic.

Frank Viola: Rethinking the 5 Fold Ministry
What Are the Ascension Gifts?

When the ascension gifts emerge organically in a local assembly, their chief function is to nurture and encourage the believing community toward spiritual maturity in Christ, unity, and every-member functioning.
I will now try to demystify the so-called “five-fold ministry” and discuss how each of the ascension gifts probably functioned in the first century:

Apostles. Apostles were extra-local, traveling, itinerant church planters. They were highly gifted individuals who were sent by the Lord and by a particular church to plant and equip new churches. Apostles enabled the church by giving it birth, raising it up from the ground. They also helped it walk on its own two feet. Apostles grew up in an organic expression of church life as non-leaders before they were sent out to plant churches of the same kind. In other words, they first experienced what they would later establish elsewhere.And they always left the churches they planted on their own without installing a clergy or religious ritual.

Prophets. Prophets were people who had a clear vision of Jesus Christ and who were able to articulate it lucidly. Prophets enabled the church by speaking the present word of the Lord to it. Sometimes their words would simply reveal Christ to encourage, inspire, and comfort. Other times their words would cast spiritual vision. Prophets sought to restore God’s will whenever it had been lost. They sometimes confirmed the gifts and callings of other members and prepared the church for future trials.

http://frankviola.org/2010/10/27/rethinking-the-five-fold-ministry/

 

[Mitspa]

TNID and AGAPE

What do you think about this? This is what got me started on this topic.

Frank Viola: Rethinking the 5 Fold Ministry
What Are the Ascension Gifts?

When the ascension gifts emerge organically in a local assembly, their chief function is to nurture and encourage the believing community toward spiritual maturity in Christ, unity, and every-member functioning.
I will now try to demystify the so-called “five-fold ministry” and discuss how each of the ascension gifts probably functioned in the first century:

Apostles. Apostles were extra-local, traveling, itinerant church planters. They were highly gifted individuals who were sent by the Lord and by a particular church to plant and equip new churches. Apostles enabled the church by giving it birth, raising it up from the ground. They also helped it walk on its own two feet. Apostles grew up in an organic expression of church life as non-leaders before they were sent out to plant churches of the same kind. In other words, they first experienced what they would later establish elsewhere.And they always left the churches they planted on their own without installing a clergy or religious ritual.

Prophets. Prophets were people who had a clear vision of Jesus Christ and who were able to articulate it lucidly. Prophets enabled the church by speaking the present word of the Lord to it. Sometimes their words would simply reveal Christ to encourage, inspire, and comfort. Other times their words would cast spiritual vision. Prophets sought to restore God’s will whenever it had been lost. They sometimes confirmed the gifts and callings of other members and prepared the church for future trials.

http://frankviola.org/2010/10/27/rethinking-the-five-fold-ministry/

Of course! its not the bible that describes what is true? But some religious man has to explain away the clear and evident testimony of the scriptures. Of course one would need a doctrine that changes the bible when we have the bible.

The bible is true until you get the bible?? nonsense!

 

[JLB]

Thanks folks! This has been a fun study for me.

I first ran across this when looking at an analysis of the organic/simple chruch movement. It appears some groups go off into what is "five fold ministry" and kingdom now false doctrine. I can understand why. They believe in modern day aspotles and prophets and have redefined those roles....I believe they have redefined them to fit their own pet doctrines.



I find no need for modern day prophets. God has give us the complete scripture that is able to equipt us for every good work. 2 Timonthy 3:16-17. God also gave us the warning in Revelation 22 (?) about adding to or taking away from His word.

As far as apostles I find only 14 held that position in scripture. The 12, Mathias and Paul. I also find Paul's defending is apostleship in 2 Corinthians 11-12 which only confirms for me that the apostles died off when those 14 and possible others who were trained by Jesus Himself and were eyewitness of the risen Christ, continued to live. In Acts we are told they devoted themselves the apostles teachings.........that was not just anyone.

God has give us the complete scripture that is able to equipt us for every good work.

What you believe then is exactly the opposite of what the scriptures teach.

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ... Ephesians 4:11-12

The balance is that I use the scriptures to show you this.


JLB