Hi everyone. Here is a conversation that I believe is interesting, where I talked with someone about the different interpretations of the word "חֶ֖רֶשׂ (ḥe·reś)" and how so many Bible versions translate it drastically differently from one another
This is odd. I remember there was your reply before juli, however now I cannot see it? Nevertheless, I will post my reply to your post here, as I typed it anyways. ____
Rev. Andrew (he/him) — Today at 9:56 AM
Juli's message is in another channel,
service , but this one is fine too.
Harold Samson (he/him) — Today at 9:56 AM
Ohhh my apologies. I had the dropdown menu for "Visitors and Guests" closed. I thought this was the only channel for a moment
Actually, I think I can move it there, let me see
Harold Samson (he/him) — Yesterday at 7:41 PM
Isaiah 45:9
Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
those who are nothing but potsherds
among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
‘What are you making?’
Does your work say,
‘The potter has no hands’?
(NIV) A potsherd is a broken fragment of a pot, one clay pot חֶ֖רֶשׂ (ḥe·reś) Strong's 2789: Earthenware, earthen vessel, sherd, potsherd. Indeed, we are like earthen vessels. We, humans of the earth, with our bodies as vessels for our souls, are all sinners. We have all broken the law of God, our Maker. Thus, with His hands, He will convince all of us through His own hands to believe in Christ, to be repaired from our sins. Can the annihilationist clay say to the potter “What are you making? Salvation for all? Don’t you want to permanently destroy the sinners?” Can the infernalist clay say “The potter can not save everybody because He has no hands?”
Juli (she/they) - Clerk — Yesterday at 11:19 PM
@Harold Samson (he/him) we have an informal convention that we treat these forums like the church hall and so introduce comments like the above that are like a flyer or speech not conversation with why it's important to us or why we think others would find it interesting. Also, while you are welcome and encouraged to read the Bible in any translation that works well for you, in church forums we try to use the CEB or explain why we thought a different translation was better for that particular passage. I'd love to know why you wanted to share this with us.
Harold Samson (he/him) — Today at 9:57 AM
Hi Juli my friend. I am curious of the interpretation that Rev. Andrew may have on this verse as it relates to Universal Reconciliation, if they wish.
Since the last conversation was not replied to in a few days, I have used the post above as a conversation starter for those who may wish to discuss this particular scripture as well, not just to them, as I'm curious what others may think of my personal interpretation with how it aligns with Christian Universalism. My apologies for any confusion. I believe it’s useful to speak economically, but maybe I jumped too quickly into it lol. It's why I include the Hebrew word חֶ֖רֶשׂ (ḥe·reś) there, as sometimes it's worded as "clay pot" or "pot" or "earthenware vessel". There’s a lot of variance when it comes to how it’s worded, which is intriguing. I also use multiple translation versions, so I appreciate you telling me about this CEB version. Since I’m curious, I put in the Isaiah 45:9 verse inside the Common English Bible and here is what I see Doom to the one who argues with the potter, as if he were just another clay pot! Does the clay say to the potter, “What are you making?”
Interesting. It seems the New International Version takes a big creative liberty by adding the whole line “those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground.”
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/doom Doom = death, destruction, or any very bad situation that cannot be avoided: Even though the CEB uses the word “doom”, I do not see it as a permanent destruction like the Annihlationists see it nor deathly torture as the Infernalists. Rather, an unavoidable Strong's Hebrew: 5769. עוֹלָם (olam) (pertaining to an age) punishment. Hmm… but maybe you’re interested in a more meta reason? Not why I posted this particular verse, but rather, why I posted this here at all?
The reason I start this conversation though is because, as a Christian Universalist, I find it hard to find other people to talk with in person. My own mother has been constantly telling me to stop talking to people online about Christianity. And I posted before on another Discord server, but it received a lot of pushback from a person who is not a Christian Universalist. On other forums, I have been banned for speaking of Christian Universalism even. So, places like this where people can discuss Christian Universalism openly are quite hard to find. A lot of times, instead of providing their analysis on the verses I provide in particular, I find, many people see that I believe in the concept of “Universal Salvation through Christ” and then may try to debate it. So then, the conversation can go off topic from the specific verse as I then get verses that prove Christian Universalism is true. It can get tiring, the constant back and forth, so I’m interested in variety. Discussion preferably over debate, more relaxing that way lol. Still though, Juli, I appreciate your response, my friend. Even though it was not necessarily the sort of reply I was expecting, still it’s definitely more relaxing then how I’m treated elsewhere!
God bless!
This is odd. I remember there was your reply before juli, however now I cannot see it? Nevertheless, I will post my reply to your post here, as I typed it anyways. ____
Rev. Andrew (he/him) — Today at 9:56 AM
Juli's message is in another channel,
service , but this one is fine too.
Harold Samson (he/him) — Today at 9:56 AM
Ohhh my apologies. I had the dropdown menu for "Visitors and Guests" closed. I thought this was the only channel for a moment
Actually, I think I can move it there, let me see
Harold Samson (he/him) — Yesterday at 7:41 PM
Isaiah 45:9
Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
those who are nothing but potsherds
among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
‘What are you making?’
Does your work say,
‘The potter has no hands’?
(NIV) A potsherd is a broken fragment of a pot, one clay pot חֶ֖רֶשׂ (ḥe·reś) Strong's 2789: Earthenware, earthen vessel, sherd, potsherd. Indeed, we are like earthen vessels. We, humans of the earth, with our bodies as vessels for our souls, are all sinners. We have all broken the law of God, our Maker. Thus, with His hands, He will convince all of us through His own hands to believe in Christ, to be repaired from our sins. Can the annihilationist clay say to the potter “What are you making? Salvation for all? Don’t you want to permanently destroy the sinners?” Can the infernalist clay say “The potter can not save everybody because He has no hands?”
Juli (she/they) - Clerk — Yesterday at 11:19 PM
@Harold Samson (he/him) we have an informal convention that we treat these forums like the church hall and so introduce comments like the above that are like a flyer or speech not conversation with why it's important to us or why we think others would find it interesting. Also, while you are welcome and encouraged to read the Bible in any translation that works well for you, in church forums we try to use the CEB or explain why we thought a different translation was better for that particular passage. I'd love to know why you wanted to share this with us.
Harold Samson (he/him) — Today at 9:57 AM
Hi Juli my friend. I am curious of the interpretation that Rev. Andrew may have on this verse as it relates to Universal Reconciliation, if they wish.
Since the last conversation was not replied to in a few days, I have used the post above as a conversation starter for those who may wish to discuss this particular scripture as well, not just to them, as I'm curious what others may think of my personal interpretation with how it aligns with Christian Universalism. My apologies for any confusion. I believe it’s useful to speak economically, but maybe I jumped too quickly into it lol. It's why I include the Hebrew word חֶ֖רֶשׂ (ḥe·reś) there, as sometimes it's worded as "clay pot" or "pot" or "earthenware vessel". There’s a lot of variance when it comes to how it’s worded, which is intriguing. I also use multiple translation versions, so I appreciate you telling me about this CEB version. Since I’m curious, I put in the Isaiah 45:9 verse inside the Common English Bible and here is what I see Doom to the one who argues with the potter, as if he were just another clay pot! Does the clay say to the potter, “What are you making?”
Interesting. It seems the New International Version takes a big creative liberty by adding the whole line “those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground.”
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/doom Doom = death, destruction, or any very bad situation that cannot be avoided: Even though the CEB uses the word “doom”, I do not see it as a permanent destruction like the Annihlationists see it nor deathly torture as the Infernalists. Rather, an unavoidable Strong's Hebrew: 5769. עוֹלָם (olam) (pertaining to an age) punishment. Hmm… but maybe you’re interested in a more meta reason? Not why I posted this particular verse, but rather, why I posted this here at all?
The reason I start this conversation though is because, as a Christian Universalist, I find it hard to find other people to talk with in person. My own mother has been constantly telling me to stop talking to people online about Christianity. And I posted before on another Discord server, but it received a lot of pushback from a person who is not a Christian Universalist. On other forums, I have been banned for speaking of Christian Universalism even. So, places like this where people can discuss Christian Universalism openly are quite hard to find. A lot of times, instead of providing their analysis on the verses I provide in particular, I find, many people see that I believe in the concept of “Universal Salvation through Christ” and then may try to debate it. So then, the conversation can go off topic from the specific verse as I then get verses that prove Christian Universalism is true. It can get tiring, the constant back and forth, so I’m interested in variety. Discussion preferably over debate, more relaxing that way lol. Still though, Juli, I appreciate your response, my friend. Even though it was not necessarily the sort of reply I was expecting, still it’s definitely more relaxing then how I’m treated elsewhere!
God bless!