1,260 Days, 1,290 Days, and 1,335 Days

[David505]

Here's a way to reconcile these time notations within the 70th week:

Many commentaries relate Daniel’s “abomination of desolation†to the 2nd century BC Jewish persecution by Antiochus IV. Nevertheless, the word of the Lord appears to project the fulfillment of Daniel’s vision into the future as follows:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand (Matthew 24: 15).

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: (Mark 13: 14).

Thus, the time notations in question—1,260 days, 1,290 days and 1,335 days—may relate to Daniel’s 70th week. In this regard, many commentaries assert these intervals commence in the midst of the 70th week, and culminate, respectively, 30 days, and 75 days, beyond the limit of the 70th week. To support this opinion, the commentaries assume these intervals encompass times of judgment (30 days), and celebration (45 days), after the 70th week.

Although this interpretive technique enjoys widespread approval, the rationale relies upon undocumented opinion and disregards the inclusive basis of the 70 weeks prophecy according to Gabriel’s parameters. That is to say, 70 weeks are reserved to the chosen people, the city of Jerusalem, the temple, and the Messiah to accomplish an explicit program of reconciliation and renewal.

One of Gabriel’s strictures is to “seal up the vision and prophecy (Dan. 9:24).†Here, “seal†translates from chatham (Strong 2856), meaning to close up, or to make an end of the prophecy. Gabriel’s statement may limit the maximum time value of the prophetic term to 70 weeks, and a day neither longer, nor less. If so, we can call this Gabriel’s inclusive rule: “Seventy weeks are determined (Dan. 9:24).â€

1,290–days embrace two distinct subjects. The first subject recognizes the desolation (cessation) of the daily sacrifice in the midst of the 70th week. The second acknowledges Antichrist’s temple abomination. To determine the extent of the 1,290–day interval, we can begin at the week’s close, and count in reverse to the day whereupon the sacrifice ceases. The desolation (cessation of the sacrifice) is followed 30 days later by the conversion of the Holy Place to Antichrist. Antichrist continues for 1,260 days until the close of the 70th week.

As has been the practice with the 1,290–day notation, the majority of commentaries initiate the 1,335–day interval in the midst of the 70th week, and count past the week’s limit, until 75 days after the week’s close. To determine the 1,335–day extent, we can begin at the week’s inception, and count forward to day 1,335, upon which, we discover an intriguing blessing: “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days (Daniel 12: 12).â€

The earnest expectation of rapture and resurrection to eternal life is the linchpin of the Christian conviction. Rapture timing is the subject of an ongoing and sometimes frothy debate among students of prophecy. A majority maintains the event will precede the 70th week. Lesser factions insist the event happens in the midst of the week or at the week’s close. Does day 1,335 signal the rapture and resurrection of the saints in the midst of the 70th week? What do you think?

Here’s a chart:

[attachment=0:25g4jibm]1260, 1290, 1335 Days.jpg[/attachment:25g4jibm]

 

[JudaicChristian]

The weeks of years is a 490 year prophecy. But here is something to think about : 1260+777=2037. 1290+777=2067. 1335+777=2112. 2300-167BC=2133. 133AD+2000=2133. 2037-70=1967. 2067-100=1967. 2112-100=2012. Neat huh! Michael.

 

[JudaicChristian]

I'm still waiting for my new computer to get fixed before I do a bunch of posting. What, no comments? :nag

 

[JudaicChristian]

I had made up some algorithmic charts of time, and the twenty one days in Daniel could stand for the twenty first century.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Bumping for replys.

 

[veteran]

Rapture timing is the subject of an ongoing and sometimes frothy debate among students of prophecy. A majority maintains the event will precede the 70th week. Lesser factions insist the event happens in the midst of the week or at the week’s close.

I do not agree that the majority of Christians maintain the rapture will precede the 70th week, for that idea is the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" doctrine, a doctrine that only a few denominations have, and a doctrine that only began to be preached back in 1830's Britain in any Church.

The last three trumpets each accompany a woe period, showing the events on those trumpets happen in order. That's where to start in Revelation to find out the order of events. And on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe of Rev.11 God's "two witnesses" appear in Jerusalem to give a witness for 1260 days. At the end of that 1260 days period they are killed, and their dead bodies left laying in the street. Three and one half days later they are resurrected, and the events of the seventh trumpet - 3rd woe period begins, which is the time of Christ's coming.

So the 1260 days, 42 months, or 3 and 1/2 years all parallel each other, and are for the last half of Daniel's "one week".

Dan 12:11-12
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
(KJV)

The 1290 days period hints that the daily sacrifice ends and the abomination may be setup 30 days prior to the middle of the "one week". 1335 days after that point would mean 45 days after the 1260, or 45 days after the tribulation, possibly meaning a time of cleansing will take place after the tribulation, and maybe the setting up of Ezekiel's temple. Ezekiel 39 declares Israel will burn the weapons of the great army that comes up against it for seven years, to cleanse the land.

The main point of those being blessed who "waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days", is the idea of those who wait for Christ's coming at the end of the tribulation period.

 

[David505]

Rapture timing is the subject of an ongoing and sometimes frothy debate among students of prophecy. A majority maintains the event will precede the 70th week. Lesser factions insist the event happens in the midst of the week or at the week’s close.

I do not agree that the majority of Christians maintain the rapture will precede the 70th week, for that idea is the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" doctrine, a doctrine that only a few denominations have, and a doctrine that only began to be preached back in 1830's Britain in any Church.

The last three trumpets each accompany a woe period, showing the events on those trumpets happen in order. That's where to start in Revelation to find out the order of events. And on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe of Rev.11 God's "two witnesses" appear in Jerusalem to give a witness for 1260 days. At the end of that 1260 days period they are killed, and their dead bodies left laying in the street. Three and one half days later they are resurrected, and the events of the seventh trumpet - 3rd woe period begins, which is the time of Christ's coming.

So the 1260 days, 42 months, or 3 and 1/2 years all parallel each other, and are for the last half of Daniel's "one week".

Dan 12:11-12
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
(KJV)

The 1290 days period hints that the daily sacrifice ends and the abomination may be setup 30 days prior to the middle of the "one week". 1335 days after that point would mean 45 days after the 1260, or 45 days after the tribulation, possibly meaning a time of cleansing will take place after the tribulation, and maybe the setting up of Ezekiel's temple. Ezekiel 39 declares Israel will burn the weapons of the great army that comes up against it for seven years, to cleanse the land.

The main point of those being blessed who "waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days", is the idea of those who wait for Christ's coming at the end of the tribulation period.

Thanks Veteran,

You make an articulate case. We agree in principle about the “woes†and I hope you’re right that the majority of Christians realize the rapture will not precede the 70th week. I’m also aware of the roots of the secret rapture teaching. Forums like ours are a great way to explain the pre-wrath position, which I think is scriptural.

Regarding the time notations: I still think the maximum time value is limited to 70 weeks, and that the 70th week consists of two consecutive 1,260-day time sets. The testimony of the witnesses likely corresponds to the first 1,260 days.

Ezekiel does state that Israel will burn the weapons of her aggressors for seven years. However, there is not a direct linkage to the 70th week. Similarly, Ezekiel’s temple vision is “possibly meaning a time of cleansing will take place after the tribulation, and maybe the setting up of Ezekiel's temple†in relation to the 70th week. Again, without direct linkage, I think it’s a good idea to consider reconciliation of the time notations (including 1,335 days) within the bounds of the 70th week.

 

[veteran]

Thanks Veteran,

You make an articulate case. We agree in principle about the “woes†and I hope you’re right that the majority of Christians realize the rapture will not precede the 70th week. I’m also aware of the roots of the secret rapture teaching. Forums like ours are a great way to explain the pre-wrath position, which I think is scriptural.

Regarding the time notations: I still think the maximum time value is limited to 70 weeks, and that the 70th week consists of two consecutive 1,260-day time sets. The testimony of the witnesses likely corresponds to the first 1,260 days.

Ezekiel does state that Israel will burn the weapons of her aggressors for seven years. However, there is not a direct linkage to the 70th week. Similarly, Ezekiel’s temple vision is “possibly meaning a time of cleansing will take place after the tribulation, and maybe the setting up of Ezekiel's temple†in relation to the 70th week. Again, without direct linkage, I think it’s a good idea to consider reconciliation of the time notations (including 1,335 days) within the bounds of the 70th week.

Sadly, God's Word shows that many of our Christian brethren will get the time of Christ's coming wrong, and instead will be deceived (how many candlesticks are standing with God's "two witnesses" in Rev.11?)

I agree the 70 weeks should be complete with the setting up of Ezekiel's temple, for I believe that's part of what is meant by "to anoint the most Holy" in Dan.9:24. However, our Lord Jesus said the tribulation would be shortened for the sake of His elect (Matt.24). So how do we consider the time periods since our Lord Jesus gave that modification? I believe the events given are still to come, and important to grasp the order of events leading up to our Lord's coming. But we can no longer set a strict timeline of seven years, nor 1260 days. I do believe it's the last half of the trib period that has been shortened, as our Lord did link it with a time of the greatest persecution and deception.

Also, I see the event of God raining hail fire down upon the Gog army of Ezekiel 39 as the time of His wrath on the day of The Lord. Ezekiel 40 begins Milennium timing. So the cleansing of the land of Israel would be after Christ's coming, and after God's wrath upon those armies which come upon Israel on the last day.

 

[David505]

Thanks Veteran,

You make an articulate case. We agree in principle about the “woes†and I hope you’re right that the majority of Christians realize the rapture will not precede the 70th week. I’m also aware of the roots of the secret rapture teaching. Forums like ours are a great way to explain the pre-wrath position, which I think is scriptural.

Regarding the time notations: I still think the maximum time value is limited to 70 weeks, and that the 70th week consists of two consecutive 1,260-day time sets. The testimony of the witnesses likely corresponds to the first 1,260 days.

Ezekiel does state that Israel will burn the weapons of her aggressors for seven years. However, there is not a direct linkage to the 70th week. Similarly, Ezekiel’s temple vision is “possibly meaning a time of cleansing will take place after the tribulation, and maybe the setting up of Ezekiel's temple†in relation to the 70th week. Again, without direct linkage, I think it’s a good idea to consider reconciliation of the time notations (including 1,335 days) within the bounds of the 70th week.

Sadly, God's Word shows that many of our Christian brethren will get the time of Christ's coming wrong, and instead will be deceived (how many candlesticks are standing with God's "two witnesses" in Rev.11?)

I agree the 70 weeks should be complete with the setting up of Ezekiel's temple, for I believe that's part of what is meant by "to anoint the most Holy" in Dan.9:24. However, our Lord Jesus said the tribulation would be shortened for the sake of His elect (Matt.24). So how do we consider the time periods since our Lord Jesus gave that modification? I believe the events given are still to come, and important to grasp the order of events leading up to our Lord's coming. But we can no longer set a strict timeline of seven years, nor 1260 days. I do believe it's the last half of the trib period that has been shortened, as our Lord did link it with a time of the greatest persecution and deception.

Also, I see the event of God raining hail fire down upon the Gog army of Ezekiel 39 as the time of His wrath on the day of The Lord. Ezekiel 40 begins Milennium timing. So the cleansing of the land of Israel would be after Christ's coming, and after God's wrath upon those armies which come upon Israel on the last day.

Thanks Veteran,

“I agree the 70 weeks should be complete with the setting up of Ezekiel's temple, for I believe that's part of what is meant by "to anoint the most Holy" in Dan.9:24.â€

– Good point, and in addition may relate to John’s angelic visitation and temple vision in Rev. 11: 1-2.

“I believe the events given are still to come, and important to grasp the order of events leading up to our Lord's coming. But we can no longer set a strict timeline of seven years, nor 1260 days.â€

– Another good point, perhaps, in relation to the lunisolar character of the Hebrew calendar; although I think the seven-year timeline and the 1,260-day notations are explicit. Even so, many prophecy students think the consecutive 1,260-day time sets equal a 2,520-day timeline, which may be incorrect considering the Hebrew calendar’s variability. Perhaps, these 1,260-day intervals are like windows within a longer lunisolar continuum. Still, as you say, we may be premature to insist on a “strict timeline†until the 70th week is upon us.

“Also, I see the event of God raining hail fire down upon the Gog army of Ezekiel 39 as the time of His wrath on the Day of the Lord.â€

– That’s a tough one (for me). I can’t decide whether Gog’s aggression precedes the 70th week, and motivates the nations to submit to an international covenant, or happens within the 70th week as you propose. Sensible arguments have been advanced for both scenarios. In addition, hail and fire may relate to a nuclear exchange (Rev. 8: 7-12). Perhaps, John’s “hail†corresponds to nuclear fallout?

“I do believe it's the last half of the trib period that has been shortened, as our Lord did link it with a time of the greatest persecution and deception.â€

– Absolutely, but how? That’s how I think day 1,335 may fit, which would shorten the time considerably on behalf of Christian believers, and also preclude "date-setting" since we don't know when the 70th week begins.

 

[veteran]

Thanks Veteran,

“I agree the 70 weeks should be complete with the setting up of Ezekiel's temple, for I believe that's part of what is meant by "to anoint the most Holy" in Dan.9:24.â€

– Good point, and in addition may relate to John’s angelic visitation and temple vision in Rev. 11: 1-2.

If you mean the Rev.11:1-2 verses may relate to tribulation timing, I agree, but not to Milennium timing. In the vision John was given a reed "like unto a rod". I see that pointing to the idea of a 'rod' of punishing, which relates that temple timing in the negative sense. The Gentiles given to tread the court for 42 months I also see in the negative false worship sense associated with the 42 months of the beast; especially because God's "two witnesses" are shown coming there right after that to bear witness, and they are not accepted, but are killed.

“I believe the events given are still to come, and important to grasp the order of events leading up to our Lord's coming. But we can no longer set a strict timeline of seven years, nor 1260 days.â€

– Another good point, perhaps, in relation to the lunisolar character of the Hebrew calendar; although I think the seven-year timeline and the 1,260-day notations are explicit. Even so, many prophecy students think the consecutive 1,260-day time sets equal a 2,520-day timeline, which may be incorrect considering the Hebrew calendar’s variability. Perhaps, these 1,260-day intervals are like windows within a longer lunisolar continuum. Still, as you say, we may be premature to insist on a “strict timeline†until the 70th week is upon us.

We know the previous 69 weeks of the prophecy do follow a strict timeline, because it's fulfillment can be shown. But the final "one week", I don't think so, because of it being shortened. I feel that means our Lord wants us to especially be watching the events He gave, and not get trapped into trying figure out an exact time of His coming. Another thought on that might be why did our Lord Jesus only link the last three trumpets with three woe periods, and not also give us woe periods with the first four? That shows me it's all about watching the event order especially in the last three.

“Also, I see the event of God raining hail fire down upon the Gog army of Ezekiel 39 as the time of His wrath on the Day of the Lord.â€

– That’s a tough one (for me). I can’t decide whether Gog’s aggression precedes the 70th week, and motivates the nations to submit to an international covenant, or happens within the 70th week as you propose. Sensible arguments have been advanced for both scenarios. In addition, hail and fire may relate to a nuclear exchange (Rev. 8: 7-12). Perhaps, John’s “hail†corresponds to nuclear fallout?

In Zeph.3, God showed it's His intent to assemble the kingdoms, to gather the nations, so as to pour out His cup of indignation upon them. That's the time of His wrath. The end of Ezek.38 and into 39 God shows the fire of His wrath is going to end the northern army's attempt to come upon Israel to destroy it. With that event He shows that the scattered of the house of Israel will then know He is God, and especially the nations will then also know He is God. That follows the event of His consuming fire that will end this world, where Daniel 8 showed Christ will defeat the antichrist and our enemies "without hand", meaning without our help. It makes sense that The LORD will step in and do that without His enemies being able to say that we defeated them. God is coming to defeat His and our enemies, and they are to know He did it, not us. That's the Message I get in that end of Ezek.38 through 39 chapters. Sincerely, I don't think man has enough nuclear weapons to cause the type of cleansing on this earth which God is going to do (see end of Hebrews 12, which I think also hints to the Gap idea of Gen.1:2, a time I believe was when God shook this earth once before, possibly to cause the roughly 90 mile error between true geographical north and magnetic north).

“I do believe it's the last half of the trib period that has been shortened, as our Lord did link it with a time of the greatest persecution and deception.â€

– Absolutely, but how? That’s how I think day 1,335 may fit, which would shorten the time considerably on behalf of Christian believers, and also preclude "date-setting" since we don't know when the 70th week begins.

Well, the sixth trumpet - second woe events are about what? I believe that's when the locust army comes to full control on the earth, with their king being setup over all nations. That would mean tribulation timing. And then when the abomination that maketh desolate is setup, we should know right then to mark the midpoint of the tribulation. I believe when the abomination is setup for all nations to bow in false worship to, that's specifically when the real tribulation upon God's people will begin, just like how it happenned in Daniel's day in Babylon with the golden idol of Nebuchadnezzar. I believe the stinging which the locust army is given to do involves that time of the abomination in the holy place. And how long does Rev.9 say they are allowed to sting those not sealed by God?

 

[Andrew]

Gentlemen,
For your consideration:
Due to Matthew 24 being spoken BEFORE the Revelation, consider that the shortening (for the sake of the elect) being the whole last week. In other words; perhaps it was to be 71 or 72 "weeks" and shortened to 70. This would allow times lines to remain as they are written.

 

[lecoop]

Veteran wrote:

The last three trumpets each accompany a woe period, showing the events on those trumpets happen in order. That's where to start in Revelation to find out the order of events. And on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe of Rev.11 God's "two witnesses" appear in Jerusalem to give a witness for 1260 days. At the end of that 1260 days period they are killed, and their dead bodies left laying in the street. Three and one half days later they are resurrected, and the events of the seventh trumpet - 3rd woe period begins, which is the time of Christ's coming.

So the 1260 days, 42 months, or 3 and 1/2 years all parallel each other, and are for the last half of Daniel's "one week".

Once more I must disagree with Veteran.

Of course the 1260 days, the 42 months, and the 3 1/2 years all parallel each other, EXCEPT for a few days difference on when they begin. When they are given in days, we can be SURE they will be accurate to the very day. When given in months, they may be perhaps a week off.

Which of these time frames were given first? Of course, the trampling of the temple. Does it make sense that the beast must arrive in Jerusalem before He can enter the temple to become the abomination? Therefore, It appears that He may arrive in Jerusalem with his Gentile (think Muslim) armies, perhaps a week or so BEFORE the exact midpoint of the week. So this time frame is given in months, not days. This 42 months will begin when they begin to trample the temple court, some small time BEFORE the abomination.

Next, God introduces John to the two witnesses (and John introduces them to us.) In His narrative, in Rev 11:3, John is EXACTLY 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint of the week, EXACTLY 3 1/2 days before the abomination, AND EXACTLY 3 1/2 DAYS BEFORE THE SOUNDING OF THE 7TH TRUMPET. When the beast walks into the temple and declares he is God, the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven.

The two witnesses testify for exactly 1260 days, then are killed and lay dead for 3 1/2 days. They are resurrected on the final day of the 70th week, on the SAME DAY that the 7th vial is poured out. The earthquake at the resurrection of the two witnesses, is the SAME earthquake we read about at the 7th vial.

All five of these parallel time periods ENDS at the same time; the end of the 70th week (with one possible exception). This end is "marked" by the 7th vial. ("It is done.")

The next parallel time period is the fleeing of the "woman," those living in Judea. They flee the moment they see the abomination. (Hmmm. Is it strange that this verse is only a FEW VERSES after the sounding of the 7th trumpet?) No, this verse is where it is at BY DESIGN OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! It happens only a few seconds after the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Sorry to disagree with so many, but this was the intent of the Holy Spirit when He had John write. Many people imagine things of the 7th trumpet NOT backed up by scripture. Some think the rapture occurs here. It does not. It will occur at the 6th seal, as the FIRST EVENT of the 6th seal; then "sudden destruction" comes upon all those left behind. If you will just read, John SEES THE CHURCH at the throne of God, very shortly after the 6th seal. In fact, the church MUST be removed before the 7th seal, because that is the "marker" for the beginning of the day of the Lord, AND THE BEGINNING OF GOD'S WRATH. The church has no appointment with His wrath. The church will be delivered FROM His wrath. Some imagine that the 7th trumpet is the END of the week; it is not. It "marks" the exact midpoint. It also is the changing of millenniums: the church age is finished, and the Millenial age begins at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. (I will not be dogmatic on this point.) Anyone turning to God at or after this point, will not become a part of the church, but rather, a part of the millenial kingdom (if they survive).
The next parallel time period is the 3 1/2 years. It will begin at the same time the fleeing began, seconds after the abomination. But, it may end a little time AFTER the 7th vial. This remnant of Jews will be supernaturally protected by God until they are rescued by Jesus when He comes.

The last 42 month time period is the 42 months given to the beast. I believe it begins at the abomination. When John mentions this 42 months, he is still VERY CLOSE to the midpoint of the week in his narrative. This time of the beast's authority will end at the 7th vial. However, those days of great tribulation that started at the abomination will be shortened, so will not take up the full 42 months. God shortens those days by the vials of His wrath, and the associated plagues. It is not the beast's authority that is shortened; it is his ability to hunt down Jews and beleivers and put them to death. After a few of the vials, he will become almost helpless. He will have no one to do his bidding, as they are all in the dark, gnawing their tongues for pain.

Jesus does NOT come back on the last day of the 70th week. If He did, everyone would know the day - and He said no one would know. So there will be a short and unknown time period between the 7th vial that ends the week, and the day of His return.

This is John's chronology.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Rapture timing is the subject of an ongoing and sometimes frothy debate among students of prophecy. A majority maintains the event will precede the 70th week. Lesser factions insist the event happens in the midst of the week or at the week’s close.

I do not agree that the majority of Christians maintain the rapture will precede the 70th week, for that idea is the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" doctrine, a doctrine that only a few denominations have, and a doctrine that only began to be preached back in 1830's Britain in any Church.

The last three trumpets each accompany a woe period, showing the events on those trumpets happen in order. That's where to start in Revelation to find out the order of events. And on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe of Rev.11 God's "two witnesses" appear in Jerusalem to give a witness for 1260 days. At the end of that 1260 days period they are killed, and their dead bodies left laying in the street. Three and one half days later they are resurrected, and the events of the seventh trumpet - 3rd woe period begins, which is the time of Christ's coming.

So the 1260 days, 42 months, or 3 and 1/2 years all parallel each other, and are for the last half of Daniel's "one week".

Dan 12:11-12
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
(KJV)

The 1290 days period hints that the daily sacrifice ends and the abomination may be setup 30 days prior to the middle of the "one week". 1335 days after that point would mean 45 days after the 1260, or 45 days after the tribulation, possibly meaning a time of cleansing will take place after the tribulation, and maybe the setting up of Ezekiel's temple. Ezekiel 39 declares Israel will burn the weapons of the great army that comes up against it for seven years, to cleanse the land.

The main point of those being blessed who "waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days", is the idea of those who wait for Christ's coming at the end of the tribulation period.

Thanks Veteran,

You make an articulate case. We agree in principle about the “woes†and I hope you’re right that the majority of Christians realize the rapture will not precede the 70th week. I’m also aware of the roots of the secret rapture teaching. Forums like ours are a great way to explain the pre-wrath position, which I think is scriptural.

Regarding the time notations: I still think the maximum time value is limited to 70 weeks, and that the 70th week consists of two consecutive 1,260-day time sets. The testimony of the witnesses likely corresponds to the first 1,260 days.

Ezekiel does state that Israel will burn the weapons of her aggressors for seven years. However, there is not a direct linkage to the 70th week. Similarly, Ezekiel’s temple vision is “possibly meaning a time of cleansing will take place after the tribulation, and maybe the setting up of Ezekiel's temple†in relation to the 70th week. Again, without direct linkage, I think it’s a good idea to consider reconciliation of the time notations (including 1,335 days) within the bounds of the 70th week.

David, I disagree with your take on the two witnesses: I believe they are introduced (by God to John and by John to us) at the exact moment when they will actually appear, when that time comes. If you will note, the verbs used there: "I will give" and "they will prophesy" are quite different than the past tense that John uses almost exclusively. Next, all through the book, John writes of things when they are introduced, not whey they are finished. We cannot overlook the exact point that John introduces them to us: just before the midpoint of the week. Therefore, I believe they show up 3 1/2 days before the midpoint, and are resurrected at the same time as the 7th vial is poured out. (It is "sudden destruction" again!!!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Veteran wrote:

Sadly, God's Word shows that many of our Christian brethren will get the time of Christ's coming wrong, and instead will be deceived (how many candlesticks are standing with God's "two witnesses" in Rev.11?)

Veteran, can you go into this further, showing us some scripture?

I agree the 70 weeks should be complete with the setting up of Ezekiel's temple, for I believe that's part of what is meant by "to anoint the most Holy" in Dan.9:24. However, our Lord Jesus said the tribulation would be shortened for the sake of His elect (Matt.24). So how do we consider the time periods since our Lord Jesus gave that modification? I believe the events given are still to come, and important to grasp the order of events leading up to our Lord's coming. But we can no longer set a strict timeline of seven years, nor 1260 days. I do believe it's the last half of the trib period that has been shortened, as our Lord did link it with a time of the greatest persecution and deception.

I am not sure that the temple that is defiled is Ezekiel's temple - but it could be - but probably is not. Jerusalem is burned and a terrible earthquake comes. Will the temple remain? It is doubtful. It is "those days" of "great tribulation" that are shortened, NOT the last half of the week, and NOT the 42 months of the beast's authority. I believe God uses the vials and plagues to shorten those days. Therefore, we surely can rely on the 7 years being accurate, and each of the five mentions of the last half will be accurate. They are written in God's word, which cannot be changed.

Also, I see the event of God raining hail fire down upon the Gog army of Ezekiel 39 as the time of His wrath on the day of The Lord. Ezekiel 40 begins Milennium timing. So the cleansing of the land of Israel would be after Christ's coming, and after God's wrath upon those armies which come upon Israel on the last day.

Do you mean that the great earthquake and hail mentioned in Ezekiel are the very same as mentioned at the 7th vial? I believe they are one and the same.

Coop

 

[Andrew]

This is John's chronology.

Coop

Actually it's your chronology Coop.

 

[lecoop]

This is John's chronology.

Coop

Actually it's your chronology Coop.

Well, if you disagree, why not bring up one of my points, and show where it is wrong, but using scripture? Would that be a novel idea?

Coop

 

[veteran]

Gentlemen,
For your consideration:
Due to Matthew 24 being spoken BEFORE the Revelation, consider that the shortening (for the sake of the elect) being the whole last week. In other words; perhaps it was to be 71 or 72 "weeks" and shortened to 70. This would allow times lines to remain as they are written.

I think the answer is given in Rev.9 about the time of stinging by the locusts, which is "five months".

Rev 9:4-5
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(KJV)

I believe that time of stinging represents the high point of the tribulation, and actually begins with the 6th trumpet when the four angels at the river Euphrates are loosed, which can be seen as a symbolic border between Satan's host and God's people. Those not sealed with God's sealing will be deceived, which is why they'd have no need to kill those who are deceived by the "strong delusion". It's those of Christ's elect that won't be deceived and will be a threat to the false messiah. I believe the tribulation will be upon God's people in two ways, for the deceived they will fall to the hour of temptation and be deceived, wronlgy bowing to the false messiah. But for Christ's elect who will not be deceived, they will be sought out, delivered up, and some killed for refusing to bow to the false messiah. It'll be better to suffer persecution for Christ's sake at the hand of the false messiah than to fall away into temptation and bow to him by mistake.

 

[veteran]

Veteran wrote:

Sadly, God's Word shows that many of our Christian brethren will get the time of Christ's coming wrong, and instead will be deceived (how many candlesticks are standing with God's "two witnesses" in Rev.11?)

Veteran, can you go into this further, showing us some scripture?

Compare our Lord's Messages to the seven Churches in Asia with the two candlesticks of Rev.11. Our Lord declared the seven candlesticks are the seven Churches in Rev.1. If that's not enough, might want to go over the ten virgins parable again, and note the fate of the five foolish virgins when Christ comes.

I am not sure that the temple that is defiled is Ezekiel's temple - but it could be - but probably is not. Jerusalem is burned and a terrible earthquake comes. Will the temple remain? It is doubtful. It is "those days" of "great tribulation" that are shortened, NOT the last half of the week, and NOT the 42 months of the beast's authority. I believe God uses the vials and plagues to shorten those days. Therefore, we surely can rely on the 7 years being accurate, and each of the five mentions of the last half will be accurate. They are written in God's word, which cannot be changed.

No one said Ezekiel's temple would be defiled.

If the days of the great tribulation are shortened, that would be the last half of Daniel's symbolic "one week". The time being shortened our Lord linked with the time of persecution of His saints per Matt.24. Trying to move that time stamp would be wrong.

Also, I see the event of God raining hail fire down upon the Gog army of Ezekiel 39 as the time of His wrath on the day of The Lord. Ezekiel 40 begins Milennium timing. So the cleansing of the land of Israel would be after Christ's coming, and after God's wrath upon those armies which come upon Israel on the last day.

Do you mean that the great earthquake and hail mentioned in Ezekiel are the very same as mentioned at the 7th vial? I believe they are one and the same.

I believe they are the same event too, likewise as the first part of Zechariah 14.

 

[lecoop]

Veteran wrote:

Sadly, God's Word shows that many of our Christian brethren will get the time of Christ's coming wrong, and instead will be deceived (how many candlesticks are standing with God's "two witnesses" in Rev.11?)

Veteran, can you go into this further, showing us some scripture?

Compare our Lord's Messages to the seven Churches in Asia with the two candlesticks of Rev.11. Our Lord declared the seven candlesticks are the seven Churches in Rev.1. If that's not enough, might want to go over the ten virgins parable again, and note the fate of the five foolish virgins when Christ comes.

I don't think any "Christian brethren" are deceived. (Meaning people truly born again.) First, the church is taken out before the 70th week and day of the Lord begins. Yes, new people believe during the week, and could be called brethren, but they will not be deceived either. It is the WORLD that is deceived: does this not make it very clear who will be deceived?

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The only people that will be deceived are those whose names are NOT written in the book of life.

Will any born again people take the mark? It is possible, but it will not be because they are deceived; it will be becuase they are weak; not willing to give up their life for Jesus.

I am not sure that the temple that is defiled is Ezekiel's temple - but it could be - but probably is not. Jerusalem is burned and a terrible earthquake comes. Will the temple remain? It is doubtful. It is "those days" of "great tribulation" that are shortened, NOT the last half of the week, and NOT the 42 months of the beast's authority. I believe God uses the vials and plagues to shorten those days. Therefore, we surely can rely on the 7 years being accurate, and each of the five mentions of the last half will be accurate. They are written in God's word, which cannot be changed.

No one said Ezekiel's temple would be defiled.

You wrote, "I agree the 70 weeks should be complete with the setting up of Ezekiel's temple." I thought by this that you meant it would be Ezekiel's temple that the abomination would be accomplished in.

I don't think this temple will be constructed until AFTER the 7th week is finished, and Jesus begins to set up His kingdom.

If the days of the great tribulation are shortened, that would be the last half of Daniel's symbolic "one week". The time being shortened our Lord linked with the time of persecution of His saints per Matt.24. Trying to move that time stamp would be wrong.

Yes, Of course "those days" of "great tribulation" will be during the last half of the week. However, "great tribulation" is NOT a title for the last half of the week. There are going to be "those days" of great tribulation - but we don't know how many days, weeks, months or years it will be. All we do know is that it will not be the full 42 months of the beast's authority.

Why do you say I am "trying to move that time stamp?" Just where are "those days" of "great tribulation" in Revelation? They will begin in chapter 12 with the woman fleeing, but the beast will not really get his killing machine going (take the mark or die) until AFTER chapter 14. The END of the week is the 7th vial. The last half of the week will go from chapter 11 to chapter 16. So the time of great tribulation will be in FULL FORCE when the first vial is poured out. The vials are poured on in the second half of the week, but again, we don't know how long after the abomination when God will pour our His first vial. It HAS TO BE after the mark is established and after the image is set up. I don't believe the image is set up at the exact middle of the week. I think the abomination begins with the beast in the Holy Place, declaring that He is God.

2 Thes 2
4 ...so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

VERY soon after this, Satan is cast down and possesses him. He will immediately go after the remnant that has flown into the wilderness. How long before the false prophet shows up? We just don't know. It could be a week - a month - or even a year. The image will not be set up until the false prophet shows up. My guess would be sooner rather than later, do to the 42 month time constraint.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Gentlemen,
For your consideration:
Due to Matthew 24 being spoken BEFORE the Revelation, consider that the shortening (for the sake of the elect) being the whole last week. In other words; perhaps it was to be 71 or 72 "weeks" and shortened to 70. This would allow times lines to remain as they are written.

I think the answer is given in Rev.9 about the time of stinging by the locusts, which is "five months".

Rev 9:4-5
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(KJV)

I believe that time of stinging represents the high point of the tribulation, and actually begins with the 6th trumpet when the four angels at the river Euphrates are loosed, which can be seen as a symbolic border between Satan's host and God's people. Those not sealed with God's sealing will be deceived, which is why they'd have no need to kill those who are deceived by the "strong delusion". It's those of Christ's elect that won't be deceived and will be a threat to the false messiah. I believe the tribulation will be upon God's people in two ways, for the deceived they will fall to the hour of temptation and be deceived, wronlgy bowing to the false messiah. But for Christ's elect who will not be deceived, they will be sought out, delivered up, and some killed for refusing to bow to the false messiah. It'll be better to suffer persecution for Christ's sake at the hand of the false messiah than to fall away into temptation and bow to him by mistake.

Sorry, but this is simply not what John is telling us. You are in the FIRST HALF of the week, not the second half. The trumpets are in the first 1260 days. The woman fleeing [the abomination] is in 12:6, so we KNOW the abomination had to be in chapter 11. But, John was in heaven, and did not see it, so he did not write about it. God chose for him to see the trumpets sounding in heaven, instead. But, God did show him the woman fleeing the abomination.

Therefore, the first half of the week MUST come before chapter 11. Indeed it does: the week begins with the 7th seal. The first trumpet is the first event of the 70th week AND the day of the Lord. They BOTH begin at the same event: the 7th seal. It does say five months for the 5th trumpet.

Just suppose that the effects of each trumpet lasted 5 months, and God allowed a 2 months "reprieve" to see if any would repent. That would make 7 months between trumpets. 6 times 7 is 42 months, or half of the week. (the 7th trumpet "marks" the midpoint, so cannot be counted.)

Of course I am NOT saying that each trumpet will last 5 months. I am only saying it could be. It is only written that the 5th trumpet last 5 months.

YOu wrote: "I believe that time of stinging represents the high point of the tribulation..."

Do you mean the high point of the week, or the high point of great tribulation? The sealing is NOT for pretection against deception, but protection against the trumpet judgments. It is for PHYSICAL protection. I think you want to have "those days" of "great tribulation" before John has even gotten to the midpoint of the week. If so, that is a mistake. Great tribulation will not come until some time after the abomination event, and that takes place in chapter 11 - as seen by the woman fleeing in chapter 12.
This is one great error of prewrath thought: Rosenthal and Van Kampen finished "those days" of great tribulation before John ever got to the midpoint of the week.

Coop