Bible Study 1 Kings 22: 19-23

[Latin Rite Catholic]

19. And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

I Kings 22: 19-23

This is taken from KJV

I find this a interesting passage of Holy Scripture, and like to hear everyone's comments upon it.

Do you take this description literaly or figuratively, and why?
How does this passage affect your personal picture of events in Heaven, or does it?
Do you find any profound symbolism in this passage?

Or whatever insight you may have, would be appreciated!

 

[cyberjosh]

I see this as a real event. Notice though that the spirit volunteered and God allowed it to carry out its suggestion by saying that it would succeed, and then ordered it to carry it out.

God is attributed with doing things whether He actively causes them or passively allows it, because he is absolutely sovereign. God let Satan test Job and yet Job knew God was testing him. In a well known disputed story in two parts of the Bible (2 Samuel 24:1 & 1 Chronicles 21:1) it is said both that God temped David to take the census and that Satan tempted David to take the census. This shows the attributing of the Devil's actions to God's passive judgement (allowance) by letting Satan test David (as he did with Job). So the lying spirit here cannot be seen as any evil intent in God's heart or compromise of his character, for He has used such devices before to fulfill his holy, perfect will.

 

[jgredline]

I taught on this a few years ago but the just of it is simple.
22:18–23 King Ahab presented this to Jehoshaphat as evidence that Micaiah could speak nothing but evil against him. Then the brave prophet spoke up again. He related a vision in which a lying spirit, appearing before the Lord, agreed to trick Ahab into going against Ramoth Gilead and be slain. The lying spirit would put this advice into the mouth of all the king’s prophets. This is an example of how God, while not the author of evil, uses it to achieve His ultimate ends. He sent the lying spirit only in the sense that He permitted it.

 

[cyberjosh]

This is an example of how God, while not the author of evil, uses it to achieve His ultimate ends. He sent the lying spirit only in the sense that He permitted it.

Thank you for the double confirmation jgredline!

 

[jgredline]

This is an example of how God, while not the author of evil, uses it to achieve His ultimate ends. He sent the lying spirit only in the sense that He permitted it.

Thank you for the double confirmation jgredline!

Cyber
I enjoyed your post as well. Infact you bring up some good points. You should start a new thread on them. In particular the Census David took. It would make a great bible study and would be interesting to see whom people think the Angel was?

 

[JM]

I always look to Dr. John Gill when it comes to the OT:

1Ki 22:19 - And he saith, hear thou therefore the word of the Lord,.... Since he had represented what he had said as proceeding from hatred to him, he would make it clear and plain that what he had said was the word of the Lord, and according to his mind; and that what the other prophets had said was owing to a lying spirit in them, which the Lord suffered for his ruin; all which are represented as in a vision, in which things are brought down to the capacities of men, and not as really transacted:

I saw the Lord sitting on his throne; so it was represented to his mind, as if he had seen with his bodily eyes the divine Being in a glorious form, as a king sitting on his throne, to do justice and judgment; as Ahab and Jehoshaphat were now sitting on their thrones, only as a far greater King, even the King of kings, and in a more splendid manner:

and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left the ministering angels ready to do his will.

1Ki 22:20 - And the Lord said, who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead?.... Not that it can be supposed that the Lord entered into a consultation with the angels upon this subject; only that it was the decree of God that he should go thither, and fall by the hand of the man whom he had let go, as a just punishment of him:

and one said on this manner, and another said on that manner; not that there was such an altercation among them; it only signifies, that there are various ways and means, by which the purposes and decrees of God may be and are brought about.

1Ki 22:21 - And there came forth a spirit,.... Not from the heavenly host on the right hand or the left, for they are pure and holy spirits, and impeccable, and cannot lie or deceive; but the evil spirit, Satan, the father of lies, the old deceiver, who came forth from his own place and his own company:

and stood before the Lord presented himself before him, as Satan did, Job_1:6,

and said, l will persuade him; or prevail upon him; evil spirits love to be employed in doing harm to men, they go about seeking whom they may devour. This could not be the spirit of Naboth, as the Jews say (q), seeking revenge on Ahab; that was in a state of happiness, could not move from thence, and be capable of sinning.

(q) T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 89. 1. & 102. 2. Targum in 2 Chron. xviii. 20.

1Ki 22:22 - And the Lord said unto him, wherewith?.... What way and method did he propose, to persuade Ahab to go up to Ramoth? the Lord is introduced in this visionary narrative as asking this question, not as ignorant of the scheme of the evil spirit, but in order to bring it out, and lead on to the following account:

and he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets; put them on encouraging Ahab to go up, and promising him success, as he had in former battles with the king of Syria, and which might both encourage them to give forth such a prediction, and him to believe it to be true; this proposal was quite agreeable to the character of the devil, as the father of lies:

and he said, thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also; not only make use of this artifice to persuade, but succeed also; the Lord knew that what he should suggest to the prophets, and they should deliver to Ahab, would be agreeable to his inclination, nor would he do anything in the course of his providence to hinder its taking effect:

go forth, and do so; which was giving leave to try his skill in the art of persuasion, in which he knew he would succeed, and bring on the righteous judgment of God upon Ahab; with this compare Joh_13:27.

1Ki 22:23 - Now therefore behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these thy prophets,.... That is, suffered the lying spirit to suggest a lie to them, and sent them strong delusions to believe that lie, whose minds were disposed at any rate to flatter Ahab, to whom they told it; which was the way designed to bring him to the ruin appointed for him:

and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee: he had decreed it in himself, declared it by Micaiah his prophet, and suffered all those steps to be taken by Satan and the false prophets, to bring him to it.

 

[Latin Rite Catholic]

The First Passover and Sodom and Gomorrah

Does anyone likewise, feel that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and killing of the firstborn of Egypt were also examples of God allowing wicked spirits to act, to achieve a rightous purpose?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Re: The First Passover and Sodom and Gomorrah

Does anyone likewise, feel that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and killing of the firstborn of Egypt were also examples of God allowing wicked spirits to act, to achieve a rightous purpose?

I tend to believe that these things were carried out by Holy angels.

Here are some more passages where God will allow someone to fall into the pit that they dug.

Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[JM]

Yes, yes!

 

[Latin Rite Catholic]

Here are some more passages where God will allow someone to fall into the pit that they dug.

I think Revelation 20:7 , would fall into this category as well. (Or out of the pit in this case, actually!)

I tend to believe that these things were carried out by Holy angels.

I feel as you do on this one gabby, and I think most folks do, but I have to ask myself why;

If God can send an angel to deliver justice by killing, why couldn't an angel also be sent to deliver justice by lying?


By the way cybershark, your initial response to this post was awesome, thanks!

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

I just did a bit of research.
Scripture says that it was the Lord that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Also, it was not an 'angel' that took the firstborn of Egypt, but the Lord Himself. Notice the word "I".


Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Exd 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, [even] thy firstborn.

Exd 11:4-5 And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt: And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that [is] behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.

Exd 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I [am] the LORD.

 

[cyberjosh]

By the way cybershark, your initial response to this post was awesome, thanks!

Thank you. I try.

Cyber
I enjoyed your post as well. Infact you bring up some good points.

I appreciate it.

You should start a new thread on them. In particular the Census David took. It would make a great bible study and would be interesting to see whom people think the Angel was?

I'm not quite sure of the specifics of what you wish to talk about, but feel free to quote me and present a topic. I will join you in the discussion if you wish to make such a thread.

 

[Latin Rite Catholic]

was wondering

I just did a bit of research.
Scripture says that it was the Lord that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Also, it was not an 'angel' that took the firstborn of Egypt, but the Lord Himself. Notice the word "I".

As bad as I hate to admit the possibility, could the plague in Egypt (killing the firstborns), have been referred to in The Ten Commandments starring Charleton Heston, as being carried out by 'The Angel of Death'? I was thinking about that earlier, but would have to watch the movie again to see. If so, maybe that's where I got the idea an angel was involved.

...okay so mid-post I googled it and in fact the movie did say that..
http://charltonhestonworld.homestead.co ... ents1.html

That is so scary. :-?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Re: was wondering

...okay so mid-post I googled it and in fact the movie did say that..
http://charltonhestonworld.homestead.co ... ents1.html

That is so scary. :-?

At least you looked for some truth.
Most of the world gets their theology from TV, movies, Secular music, and eighth grade history teachers. God help us all.

 

[cyberjosh]

I just did a bit of research.
Scripture says that it was the Lord that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Also, it was not an 'angel' that took the firstborn of Egypt, but the Lord Himself. Notice the word "I".


As bad as I hate to admit the possibility, could the plague in Egypt (killing the firstborns), have been referred to in The Ten Commandments starring Charleton Heston, as being carried out by 'The Angel of Death'? I was thinking about that earlier, but would have to watch the movie again to see. If so, maybe that's where I got the idea an angel was involved.

Now, it is correct that God himself did say that he would come down and smite the Egyptians and did say "I", but you need to realize that in that day and time a messenger of a King stood in place of the King as very extention of himself, that was true of the culture of the day, and "angel" literally means messenger. When one king is said to bow before another King (in submission) it often refers to his servant doing so for him.

Now God may have actually been materially present in Egypt like He said but God is a God of Hosts, armies. He has armies of angels, and in Exodus 12:23 God says, "the LORD will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to strike you." God is an active player in this but (it seems) that His activity is only in His allowing or denying of action of something else: namely "the destroyer". This could be Satan for all we know, but God could also have an angel of death such as the Angel of the Lord who killed 185,000 Assyrians (2 Kings 19:35) or the destroying angel (similar to what happened in Egypt) in 2 Samuel 24:15-16. God seems to act as a General of an army in these instances, as absolute sovereign.

 

[thessalonian]

If an angel does God's bidding by the power that God has given him how is that not God doing the work? i.e. if I provide food, clothes, and shelter for my children is it any less God doing it? If my wife and I concieve a child and she gives birth, is there some reason that child should not attribute it's life to God, though my wife and I played and important role? Is it's life attributable to part God and part the parents? I don't think so. This thinking of either or is false dichotomizing. God works through his creation and it is all him!

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Exd 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that [was] in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

I tend to believe that when the Lord sends an angel, Scripture says so.
Num 20:16 And when we cried unto the LORD, he heard our voice, and sent an angel...

1Ch 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it...

2Ch 32:21 And the LORD sent an angel...

And when it is God, rather than a messenger, Scripture says so.

Gen 17:22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

Gen 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

 

[cyberjosh]

If an angel does God's bidding by the power that God has given him how is that not God doing the work? i.e. if I provide food, clothes, and shelter for my children is it any less God doing it? If my wife and I concieve a child and she gives birth, is there some reason that child should not attribute it's life to God, though my wife and I played and important role? Is it's life attributable to part God and part the parents? I don't think so. This thinking of either or is false dichotomizing. God works through his creation and it is all him!

Who in the world are you talking too?! Surely not me, for all you do is reinforce my point. If there was a destroyer as exodus said, God is attributed with doing the destroying whether his action/judgement was passive or active. See my first post in this thread. God is absolute sovereign.

Exd 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that [was] in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

I tend to believe that when the Lord sends an angel, Scripture says so.
Num 20:16 And when we cried unto the LORD, he heard our voice, and sent an angel...

1Ch 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it...

2Ch 32:21 And the LORD sent an angel...

And when it is God, rather than a messenger, Scripture says so.

Gen 17:22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

Gen 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

My point was simply that a "destroyer" was mentioned that God said He would not permit it to come on the Hebrews. Make what you want of it. What do you think? If the scripture usually mentions the one doing the smiting as you say then doesn't this 'destroyer' in Exodus 12:23 not qualify, especially given its name?

Please don't quarter and shoot me.