Bible Study 1 Samuel 15:3

[Ben Bet Beh]

I'm struggling with this passage from the Bible and was hoping someone could help with the context. What I find particularly troubling is the command from God through his prophet Samuel to kill everyone including infants.
Thank you!

 

[Webers_Home]

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I'm struggling with this passage from the Bible and was hoping someone could help with the context. What I find particularly troubling is the command from God through his prophet Samuel to kill everyone including infants.

Primarily 1Sam 15:3 is the fulfillment of a promise God made to Yhvh's people many years prior to Samuel's day.

†. Ex 17:14-15 . . Then the Lord said to Moses: Write this for a memorial in the book and recount it in the hearing of Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

It's also an indirect fulfillment of a promise God made to Abraham.

†. Gen 12:3 . . I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you.

In our "enlightened" day and age; genocide seems like a terrible thing; but in God's opinion, there are times when it's the right thing to do.

†. Isa 55:8-9 . . For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, attests the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Cliff
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[Ben Bet Beh]

....In our "enlightened" day and age; genocide seems like a terrible thing; but in God's opinion, there are times when it's the right thing to do....

Could you differentiate this allowable genocide to the atrocities of the Muslim terrorists from 9/11?

 

[Enow]

I'm struggling with this passage from the Bible and was hoping someone could help with the context. What I find particularly troubling is the command from God through his prophet Samuel to kill everyone including infants.
Thank you!

Apply the previous verse for the reason why:

1 Samuel 15:2Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

Seems to me that Amalek was planning a little genocide of their own.

Otherwise: the promise of cursing those that curse Israel would be vain.

Look at the laws in how Israel were to govern among themselves.

Exodus 21:23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Leviticus 24:19And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. 21And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death.

Deuteronomy 19:19Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. 20And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you. 21And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Obviously the Amalek had thought to commit genocide and thus it was to be done unto them what they had intended to do to Israel, but failed.

Committing genocide on the Amalek was to be a deference from all other tribes and nations from seeking to wipe out Israel by genocide as well. Reading the laws in how God issues judgment among Israel pretty much declares the intent of the Amalek as His judgments will stand against all those that did evil or tried to towards Israel.

Keep in mind that if Amalek had thought about committing genocide on Israel, it's a pretty safe bet that they were still thinking about it.

 

[Enow]

Could you differentiate this allowable genocide to the atrocities of the Muslim terrorists from 9/11?

Moving to present day: Jesus as the Son of God does not allow His followers to return evil for evil and that includes genocide.

Matthew 5:38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Why? Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners from their sins: to reconcile them back to a relationship with God through Himself.

Romans 12: 18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Since the book of Revelation depicts the saints going through the great tribulation: those that war on them that have received the mark of the beast are damned to the lake of fire. Of all the sinners you would think a believer would be allowed to kill, it would be them, but God still says no, and says this instead.

Revelation 13:9If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

So in regards to the atrocities that muslims commit:

John 16:1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me. 4But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

So the prophet of Islam did not know Jesus Christ nor God the Father.

Galatians 1:6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. 10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

I prefer the Good News to man as opposed to Islam that has offered no assurance of salvation other than through a jihad. Talk about a self destructive religion.

 

[Webers_Home]

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Could you differentiate this allowable genocide to the atrocities of the Muslim terrorists from 9/11?

(1) The genocide depicted at 1Sam 15:3 wasn't "allowable" it was directed.

(2) To my knowledge, the Muslim hijackers didn't target any one specific race or family bloodline; nor were they attempting to exterminate everybody in America.

Cliff
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[Ben Bet Beh]

...Seems to me that Amalek was planning a little genocide of their own....

...Keep in mind that if Amalek had thought about committing genocide on Israel, it's a pretty safe bet that they were still thinking about it.

The adult Amelikites I can see, but the infants too? If the infants were raised in the Israelite community, could they not be raised without such genocidal tendensies?

 

[Ben Bet Beh]

...Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners from their sins: to reconcile them back to a relationship with God through Himself....

Are you suggesting that Samuel was not in a right relationship with God, even though he claimed to speak for God because he advocated such violence in the name of the Lord?

 

[Ben Bet Beh]

(1) The genocide depicted at 1Sam 15:3 wasn't "allowable" it was directed.

Okay, it was directed by God. Why would God direct his people to kill others - including infants? Could God direct this sort of killing in the future? If so, why? If not, why not?

 

[Enow]

The adult Amelikites I can see, but the infants too? If the infants were raised in the Israelite community, could they not be raised without such genocidal tendensies?

The point of references was that God has judged the Amalekites by the same intent of what the Amalekites had sought, irregardless of the infants.

I suppose one could be spared and raised in an Israelite community but to what end? There would always be a chance that he or she would not be considered a true lineage of Israel and thus his or her origin may reach their ears: thus one wonders how any such a one would not seek out their roots and reactivate the evil of the Amalekites, seeking revenge for their true mother and father, and seek to fulfill that which was intended for the Israelites: genocide.

We certainly see the goadings of Satan in present day cultures towards Israel by not respecting them as we see the same thing in regards to Jews in other nations.

So there you have it. God knew what He was doing back then.

 

[Enow]

Are you suggesting that Samuel was not in a right relationship with God, even though he claimed to speak for God because he advocated such violence in the name of the Lord?

No. Samuel was His believer under the Old Covenant in representing the God of Israel by.

Now that the New Covenant has come, His believers, both Gentiles and Jews, are representing God through the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Webers_Home]

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Okay, it was directed by God. Why would God direct his people to kill others - including infants?

The answer to your question is located post #2

Could God direct this sort of killing in the future?

Yes

If so, why?

In my estimation it would be for the same reason that batches of processed meats, vegetables, and berries are recalled to protect people from E-coli 0157-H7.

There are races and/or families whom the Bible's God has adjudged in the past to be so toxic as to justify their eradication (e.g. the Flood). You should be thankful He did. That kind of weeding and pruning makes the world a better place and prevents it from being overpopulated by evil men like Hitler, Moammar Gadhafi, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, Osama Bin Laden, Robert Mugabe, and Kim Jong Il.

You're offended by infanticide?

I lived in the back country of San Diego as a growing boy back in the late 1950's. One day as I was climbing around on the rocks on my dad's property, I encountered a baby rattlesnake coiled under the lee of a large stone where I was placing my hands to climb. Well, baby rattlers are just as deadly poisonous as their parents, and not only that; but if left to grow to maturity, that little rattler might one day have bitten me as a full grown diamond back You've no doubt heard the old saying : An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Well that day it was. I terminated that little rattler.

Cliff
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[Ben Bet Beh]

...I suppose one could be spared and raised in an Israelite community but to what end? There would always be a chance that he or she would not be considered a true lineage of Israel and thus his or her origin may reach their ears: thus one wonders how any such a one would not seek out their roots and reactivate the evil of the Amalekites, seeking revenge for their true mother and father, and seek to fulfill that which was intended for the Israelites: genocide....

...So there you have it. God knew what He was doing back then.

I like this answer. God forknew what would have happened and therefore prevented the future extermination of the Israelites in which God had important plans for in the future. Thank you for the response. It has been very helpful to me.

 

[Ben Bet Beh]

Could God direct this sort of killing in the future?

Yes.

Back in the OT, God's voice was heard through Samuel. You differentiated the Islamic terrorists from 9/11 as not intending to eradicate all of the US compared to Samuel who directed King Saul to eradicate ALL of the Amelikites.

You say God could direct such eradication of an entire nation in the future. How could this possibly be accomplished today objectively speaking? Who is God's voice today to make such an edict against such an evil nation needing to be eradicated?

...You're offended by infanticide?

I lived in the back country of San Diego as a growing boy back in the late 1950's. One day as I was climbing around on the rocks on my dad's property, I encountered a baby rattlesnake coiled under the lee of a large stone where I was placing my hands to climb. Well, baby rattlers are just as deadly poisonous as their parents, and not only that; but if left to grow to maturity, that little rattler might one day have bitten me as a full grown diamond back You've no doubt heard the old saying : An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Well that day it was. I terminated that little rattler.

I'm not sure what to say to this. In one sense I understand what you are conveying, in that God can see what would have become of that infant and therefore gave the order he did. Yet, on the other hand I see the message of Christ in today's world as us NEVER going to the point of infanticide done by the will of God again. It may have applied back in Samuel's time (I believe I get that point now), but in today's post-Christ's entrance onto the scene, I just don't see it ever being justified.

 

[Elijah674]

I'm struggling with this passage from the Bible and was hoping someone could help with the context. What I find particularly troubling is the command from God through his prophet Samuel to kill everyone including infants.
Thank you!

Hi, Elijah here.

We see God in & as His own therocracy in the OT. Meaning that He was a PERFECT KNOWING ALL & being His [[JUST GOD/CHRIST GOVERNMENT!]] And let me just say that in the NT we see Ceasar with the Rom. 13 chapter of [ONLY THE DUTY TO MAN TABLE OF THE GOVERNMENT.] And Christ DOCUMENTS SEPERATION OF THE TWO.

But the O.T. finds God even coming & talking to Cain in Gen. 4:7 in person. And also all of His own. Cain was a mature farmer & had never been seen recorded to be dis/obedient before. And CHRIST GAVE Cain a [LOVING] SECOND MATURE FATAL CHANCE ro do what was right.

And Josh. 7 finds several chances for Achan + his whole family to come forward in repentance before God Commanded their execution. Surely these ALL KNEW that 'the center of their tent' had been dug up! And they ALL knew what the PARTAKER of the sin of Rev. 18:4 meant! DEATH! They all knew this fate! And in this case 36 men had died because of ALL ISRAEL BEING GUILTY! (verse 1) Even Joshua was supposed to take this before the Lord [[FIRST!]] (see ibid 2-3)

It seem's that we just do not use our brain (:yes) much?
Think of the pre/flood ones & these of Rev. 17:1-5 ones of today?? In Gen. we find Peter in the NT calling Noah a PREACHER OF RIGHTOUSNESS! And we see that for 120 YEARS THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS STRIVING with these [LOST ONES]! And today we find the same results as of Eccl. 3:15!

And we wonder & question the Lord's LOVE??? What about our love for Christ & all of these ones of His, as are a prophesied fact for ALL Matt. 7's BROADWAY ETERNALLY LOST ONES??? Obad. 1:16.

And we are now seeing the FINAL RESULTS as is seen with Old Israels shunning Christ's LOVE! He say's in Isa 5:1-4
'WHAT MORE COULD I DO?' And in verse 5 HE DOCUMENTS what [[ONLY]] is left to do to find just a few who will repent! And this [WAS & IS GOD'S LAST 'LOVING' RESORT!]

And for your question, what more could Christ do as seen in Isa. 5:1-4 for His OWN of planet Earth than has been done??? What have we, as they lacked??

So with the exact same [[LOVING]] GOD/CHRIST who DOES NOT CHANGE (Heb. 13:8) we see Matt. 24:21 taking place as we speak. And it is Christ again WITHDRAWING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT'S [HEDGE OF PROTECTION] from the MAJORITY of Earth's professed ones, while the ones who have had no or little opportunity, along with the 'few' of earth's Rev. 12:17's Remnant who are to light up the world in the 666 time of persecution, who are receiving the 'TIMES OF REFRESHING!' Acts 3:19.