1 Thess 5:4-10 teaches eternal security

[Doulos Iesou]

Could you or Doulos cite the verse that says what is being claimed here? I'd appreciate it.

Sure no problem, you can find the text here:

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother." 1 John 3:9-10 (ESV)

 

[JLB]

1 Thess 5:4-10

4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

This passage is one of many that teaches that salvation cannot be lost.

V.4 establishes that Paul’s audience are believers.

V.5 contrasts believers, who are “all sons of light and day” with unbelievers, who are “of night and darkness”.

V.6 is an exhortation for believers not to live like unbelievers by the illustration of “sleeping”, which is done at night (v.7).

V.8 points out that since believers are of the day (sons of light/day-v.5), believers need to be sober (alert).

V.9 is a promise that believers are not destined for God’s wrath, but for salvation.

V.10 points out that whether believers are “awake” (alert/sober) or “asleep” (living like unbelievers), believers “will live together with Him”.

Believers are secure in their salvation.

It is unbelievers that are not.

Those who believe for awhile then stop believing have become unbelievers.

Do these scriptures address those who believe for a while then become unbelievers?



JLB

 

[Butch5]

Hardly. Paul wrote Rom 6:23 AND 11:29. Eternal life is a gift and God's gifts are irrevocable. Add in Rom 8:35-39.


Refuted by Rom 6:23, Ro 11:29 and Rom 8:35-39.


Scripture dictates that your statement is fuzzy logic.


Please provide any verse that teaches that salvation can be lost. That will resolve the issue, since you haven't been swayed by Rom 6:23, 8:35-39 and 11:29.

FreeGrace, the issue here is not one with the Scriptures. We both look at the same Scriptures and come away with different doctrines. That indicates that at least one of us (could be both) is using faulty reasoning. If you'd like to discuss methods of reasoning I'd be glad to. We could start another thread. However, there is no point in continuing to post verses back and forth.

 

[Butch5]

Please consider Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5, and John 14:16. Then consider Rom 5:16, 6:23 and 11:29.

I have, none say a person can't lose salvation.

 

[Butch5]

Please provide any verse that teaches that salvation can be lost. That will resolve the issue, since you haven't been swayed by Rom 6:23, 8:35-39 and 11:29.

11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. {to speak...: Gr. for their railing}
15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. (1Ti 5:11-15 KJV)

 

[chessman]

The following passage defines what an "unbeliever" is, Biblically speaking:

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (LEB) But if indeed our gospel is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that they would not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
​

Notice what it says. unbelievers would NOT see the light, they are blinded, veiled and are perishing. The Bible never, not once, describes an unbeliever as someone who "believes for awhile then stops believing". God's Word says an unbeliever is veiled, blinded to the Gospel and would not see the light. I believe what it says.

What you say below, describes an exbeliever, not an unbeliever. I presented the Biblical evidence for my view (2 Cor 4:3-4, above) that shows an "unbeliver" has been blinded by the god of this world and veiled from even seeing the Gospel, much less believing it.

It is my observation that no passage in the Bible uses the word "unbeliever" to describe someone that once believed but no longer believes.
And that it is therefore, literally/techically/logically unbiblical to claim an unbeliever, once believed.

Those who believe for awhile then stop believing have become unbelievers.

JLB

I disagree with your statement above, and respecfully request that you provide a Scripture to back up your claim quoted above. Post a passage that describes a person that believes for awhile then calls that person an "unbeliever", please.

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?search=Unbeliever&version=LEB;KJV;NKJV&searchtype=all

 

[JLB]

The following passage defines what an "unbeliever" is, Biblically speaking:

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (LEB) But if indeed our gospel is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that they would not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
​

Notice what it says. unbelievers would NOT see the light, they are blinded, veiled and are perishing. The Bible never, not once, describes an unbeliever as someone who "believes for awhile then stops believing". God's Word says an unbeliever is veiled, blinded to the Gospel and would not see the light. I believe what it says.

What you say below, describes an exbeliever, not an unbeliever. I presented the Biblical evidence for my view (2 Cor 4:3-4, above) that shows an "unbeliver" has been blinded by the god of this world and veiled from even seeing the Gospel, much less believing it.

It is my observation that no passage in the Bible uses the word "unbeliever" to describe someone that once believed but no longer believes.
And that it is therefore, literally/techically/logically unbiblical to claim an unbeliever, once believed.



I disagree with your statement above, and respecfully request that you provide a Scripture to back up your claim quoted above. Post a passage that describes a person that believes for awhile then calls that person an "unbeliever", please.

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?search=Unbeliever&version=LEB;KJV;NKJV&searchtype=all

I will just as soon as you point out the verse within these passages that says once you are saved you are always saved.

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
1 Thessalonians 5;4-10

 

[FreeGrace]

Chopper said this:
"Indeed God will, but if you're continually living a life of sin, God's seed does not abide in you, that's what the Apostle John asserts."

Sure no problem, you can find the text here:

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother." 1 John 3:9-10 (ESV)

The verse does not say that those with a life of sin do not have God's seed abiding in them, which was the claim.

What it does say is that those born of God (regenerated) have God's seed absiding in him. That is different. And what does it mean? It means that what God RE-generated is the human spirit which died "on the day that…" Adam sinned. So, the believer cannot sin from his RE-generated human spirit. He can, however, continue to sin from his sin nature.

iow, a believer cannot sin from his new nature, the RE-generated human spirit.

Paul wrote clearly about the conflict between the new nature and the sin nature in Rom 6, 7 and Gal 5:16-23.

 

[FreeGrace]

Believers are secure in their salvation.

It is unbelievers that are not.

Unbelievers don't have salvation. Those who quit believing were given the gift of eternal life per John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40. Rom 6:23 says eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Those who believe for awhile then stop believing have become unbelievers.

Doesn't matter what you or I call them. Once given eternal life, that gift is irrevocable. The Bible says so.

You have not proven otherwise.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace, the issue here is not one with the Scriptures. We both look at the same Scriptures and come away with different doctrines.

That puzzles me. Because the Bible says that eternaL life is a gift of God. And it says that God's gifts are irrevocable. Your view is contrary to what the Bible says.

That indicates that at least one of us (could be both) is using faulty reasoning.

I'm not using mental reasoning, whatever that may mean to you. I'm quoting Scripture directly; that eternal life is a gift of God, and God's gifts are irrevocable. That, my friend, is irrefutable.

If you'd like to discuss methods of reasoning I'd be glad to. We could start another thread. However, there is no point in continuing to post verses back and forth.

What kind of reasoning do you bring to Scripture? Since you cannot find any verse that says that salvation can be lost.

 

[FreeGrace]

I have, none say a person can't lose salvation.

It is said this way: eternal life is a gift of God per Rom 6:23. And God's gifts are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.

Your view demands that you have to reject one of these verses. Which one do you reject?

 

[FreeGrace]

11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. {to speak...: Gr. for their railing}
15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. (1Ti 5:11-15 KJV)

OK, younger widows can and do turn aside to follow Satan. If there were ever a passage where a warning of loss of salvation was taught, this is one of them. So, where is it said in this passage? I don't see it.

 

[FreeGrace]

I will just as soon as you point out the verse within these passages that says once you are saved you are always saved.

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
1 Thessalonians 5;4-10

Wow. You just provided a passage that teaches eternal security. The context for awake and asleep is contrasting the lifestyle of believers, where being alseep is what unbelievers do. iow, they sleep at night, per v.5, 6, 7.

v.10 clinches it. Whether the believer is alert or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Thanks for making my point.

 

[Butch5]

It is said this way: eternal life is a gift of God per Rom 6:23. And God's gifts are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.

Your view demands that you have to reject one of these verses. Which one do you reject?

No, it doesn't. The promises are only to believers. As I said, the answer lies in reasoning. If you're interested we can open a thread.

 

[Butch5]

That puzzles me. Because the Bible says that eternaL life is a gift of God. And it says that God's gifts are irrevocable. Your view is contrary to what the Bible says.


I'm not using mental reasoning, whatever that may mean to you. I'm quoting Scripture directly; that eternal life is a gift of God, and God's gifts are irrevocable. That, my friend, is irrefutable.


What kind of reasoning do you bring to Scripture? Since you cannot find any verse that says that salvation can be lost.

FreeGrace, the Scriptures cannot speak, they must be interpreted, they can't say this is what I mean. Interpretation requires logic and reasoning

 

[Butch5]

OK, younger widows can and do turn aside to follow Satan. If there were ever a passage where a warning of loss of salvation was taught, this is one of them. So, where is it said in this passage? I don't see it.

Why the double standard? You ask where is it said in this passage, then on the other hand when trying to prove OSAS you give me passages that don't say what you claim and that's supposed to end it

 

[JLB]

I don't recall that you did deal with Rom 6:23 with Rom 11:29. As I recall, you dismissed it.

• The point is valid and refutes the non-OSAS view.

Except it is God's actual promise. For what? For the day of redemption. That is very clear.

• I will keep reminding anyone of what God's word says.

Here is the Greek for "promise" ini Eph 1:14
epaggelia
1) announcement
2) promise
2a) the act of promising, a promise given or to be given\
2b) a promised good or blessing

So, I disagree with your opinion. It surey does mean a promise. And since God's gifts are irrevocable, my view is supported from Scripture, unlike your view.


OK, I missed that. So I still disagree with your analogy. There are NO verses that say that any believer can be "cut from the team". And, btw, God's gifts are irrevocable.


So, where's the mention of loss of salvation here?


Because Heb 12:6 explains Heb 10:30-31.


For the believer, physical death brings the believer to the Lord, face to face. Scourging is much worse than that.


your so-called logic is refuted by the fact that God's gifts, which include eternal life, are irrevocable. I know you don't like being reminded, but it is the Word of God.


The context indicates believers doing those things.


If you did, how come there are no verses that say that salvation can be lost?[/QUOTE]


There are no verse that says salvation can't be lost, and you have never posted one, so stop acting like you have, as they don't exist.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Why the double standard? You ask where is it said in this passage, then on the other hand when trying to prove OSAS you give me passages that don't say what you claim and that's supposed to end it

Very true brother.

He has never posted a scripture that says salvation can't be lost.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Very true brother.

He has never posted a scripture that says salvation can't be lost.


JLB

Yep, we just need to use the same standard on both sides.

 

[Obadiah]

Time to give it a break.

A&T Guidelines: "Once you have made a point, refrain from flooding the forum with numerous posts making the same point over and over with nothing new to support it."

Thread closed.