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$10,000 Challenge. Any takers.

T

thessalonian

Guest
I posted this on JM's Peter in Rome thread. I don't want this to be a debate about whether Peter was in Rome. JM already started one. Just want everyone to have an opportunity to participate in my $10,000 challenge. BWG even said he/she (which are you bwg) wanted to participate, even though he's catholic. :).

Here is the deal. On JM's thread I posted the names of 8 early Church writers outside the Bible who say that Peter was in Rome. There are many more of course. They say it explicitly. All you have to do is explain why these writers created this conspiriacy or were sorely confused and Peter never reall was in Rome. Then come up with 8 statements from various writers that explicitly say he was not.


Now I have devised a way to give credit the closer on is to the Peter's time. That only makes sense. You and I know George Bush exists as the US President. Who knows in 2000 years if peolpe will have a solid knowledge that he was. Most certainly they will have to rely on some information from today or in the history books of the next 200 years. So here is the deal. For each writer we simply take the year that he died. In fact I will give you the advantage. I will alow you to use their birth year and I will use the year they died in my list of 8. Now I will currently say that the total for my list of 8 is probably around 2400. If things get close (which I suspect it won't) then I will get an accurate tally. Basically what you have to do is shoot for 8 writers whose birth years add up to less than 2400 that state that Peter was never in Rome. For example you can use John Calvin who's birth year was somewhere around 1600. Then you have 800 years left to play with for 7 more authors. You can even use yourself but this puts you at over 2060 or so so all the rest of your 7 quotes need to be right out the Bible, each quote from it counting as le's say 33. Something I know you can't do. The Bible is silent on the matter. Do you follow?

I'll write you out a check if you can do it. 1 Explanation. 8 quotes with the total years adding up to less than my 8 quotes. That's it.


Good luck.
 
No takers? So many of you are sure Peter was never in Rome. Common! Call my bluff if that's what you think it is. :o
 
It can't be done......why? Who would have been there to dispute that?....and live? Certainly the bulk (entirety) of Christian fathers were hellenist gentiles.....If they can present that Peter went to Rome, that would give creedence that Peter supported Pauline Christianity, which he did not.

On the other thread that you had mentioned, I posted a website article that gave 10 reasons why Peter (The disciple Peter) could not have been in Rome...One of the reasons....Peter was not a Missionary to the Gentiles...He was a Missionary to the Jews....amongst other reasons.....

It also presented who the "Peter" at Rome was....Simon Magnus....

Anyway it is not a provable point, so your 10K is safe.....

It is safe to say if the Apostle Peter was in Rome....Christianity would look very different than it is today....It diffenetely would be more Jewish...
 
Georges said:
It can't be done......why? Who would have been there to dispute that?....and live? Certainly the bulk (entirety) of Christian fathers were hellenist gentiles.....If they can present that Peter went to Rome, that would give creedence that Peter supported Pauline Christianity, which he did not.
Who would have been there to dispute that?....and live?

Are you talkins about when Constantine showed up and supposedly mandated Catholicism? I think if you will look up the writers I mentioned above in many different countries, they in fact lived before constantine. Now where are the ones BEFORE constantine that said that Peter was not in Rome. Name one!

You put Peter and Paul at odds regarding what they beleived Christianity was? :o

On the other thread that you had mentioned, I posted a website article that gave 10 reasons why Peter (The disciple Peter) could not have been in Rome...One of the reasons....Peter was not a Missionary to the Gentiles...He was a Missionary to the Jews....amongst other reasons.....

I believe I've given substantial reason as to why that is simply a red herring. 1) Peter did in fact minister to the Gentiles. Paul tells us he was doing so in Gal 2 and they when some Jewish leaders came along he started wrongly catering to the Jews. In Acts 10 and 11 he converts the first gentile Christians. 2) There were Jews in Rome. This is proven because Claudius issued and expulsion order in around 50 AD.. Estimates are that there were 50,000 Jews in Rome. So there were Jews to be ministered to and thus the reason that Peter was "apostle to the Gentiles" is an invalid one made more invalid by the third reason I have noted in this thread. 3) We know that Paul was "apostle to the Gentiles". If your reasoning that Peter was "apostle to the Jews" means he could not minister to the gentiles then what is good for the goose must be good for the gander as well. But Paul ministers to many Jews as is plain from scripture. Berean and thessalonian Jews in Acts 17. Ephesian Jews in the Letter to timothy (who was a Jew). He even writes the book of HEBREWS. So you raise red herrings I am afriad. Do you never read your oppents arguemnts.


It also presented who the "Peter" at Rome was....Simon Magnus....

The name Simon does not equal the name Peter. They are two COMPLETELY different names. So Simon Magnus would not have been called Peter.

Anyway it is not a provable point, so your 10K is safe.....

Give it the old college try somebody.

It is safe to say if the Apostle Peter was in Rome....Christianity would look very different than it is today....It diffenetely would be more Jewish...

Hmmm. It would be more Catholic. :-D
 
Thessalonian said:
Georges said:
It can't be done......why? Who would have been there to dispute that?....and live? Certainly the bulk (entirety) of Christian fathers were hellenist gentiles.....If they can present that Peter went to Rome, that would give creedence that Peter supported Pauline Christianity, which he did not.
Who would have been there to dispute that?....and live?

Are you talkins about when Constantine showed up and supposedly mandated Catholicism? I think if you will look up the writers I mentioned above in many different countries, they in fact lived before constantine. Now where are the ones BEFORE constantine that said that Peter was not in Rome. Name one!

You put Peter and Paul at odds regarding what they beleived Christianity was? :o

Yes...absolutely......Peter believed in a Torah observant Christianity, Paul did not.....unless called on it...

[quote:3a4c5]On the other thread that you had mentioned, I posted a website article that gave 10 reasons why Peter (The disciple Peter) could not have been in Rome...One of the reasons....Peter was not a Missionary to the Gentiles...He was a Missionary to the Jews....amongst other reasons.....

I believe I've given substantial reason as to why that is simply a red herring. 1) Peter did in fact minister to the Gentiles. Paul tells us he was doing so in Gal 2 and they when some Jewish leaders came along he started wrongly catering to the Jews.

Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;

Peter minister only to the Gentiles who were associated with the Jewish Chrurch...just like every church was before 70 Ad...Gentile believers who were associated with the local synagogues, who were not yet proselytes, were called God Fearers (ie. Cornelius). The "Jewish Leaders" you refer to are actually the Emissaries of James (The leader of the Chruch of Jerusalem) and were Torah observant believers (as all of the Apostles were).

Peter rightly drew away....from "eating" with them....as was the proper law...especially if they were serving "non Kosher" food....

Peter rightly was Torah observant.



In Acts 10 and 11 he converts the first gentile Christians.

But notice also how heavily involved Cornelius was with the local synagogues...Cornelius was a God Fearer and the next step for a God Fearer is Proselytism....Also, being a God fearer and involved with Judaism, Cornelius would have been at least semi-Torah observant. He would not have fed Peter "non Kosher" food....the emphasis was breaking down the man made law of eating with Gentiles...

2) There were Jews in Rome. This is proven because Claudius issued and expulsion order in around 50 AD.. Estimates are that there were 50,000 Jews in Rome. So there were Jews to be ministered to and thus the reason that Peter was "apostle to the Gentiles" is an invalid one made more invalid by the third reason I have noted in this thread.

Yes there were Jews in Rome and at times the Roman government was very friendly to them...sometimes more so than they were to the Christians. If Claudius issued an explusion order....doesn't expulsion mean that the Jews were kicked out....? When did Peter have time to travel to Babylon then to Rome? I know another red herring.....

also, I must point out again....

Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;

That means Peter was a Missionary to the Jews.... :)

Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

again....I think that means Jews....however I guess it is possible that Gentiles could be circumcized...I'm a gentile and was circumsized at birth....so...I guess it is possible Peter was an Apostle to the Gentiles...

Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Cephas to my limited knowledge is Peter....and "they" would be James, Peter, and John...and the circumcision are the Jews.....

Perhaps you misspoke?






3) We know that Paul was "apostle to the Gentiles". If your reasoning that Peter was "apostle to the Jews" means he could not minister to the gentiles then what is good for the goose must be good for the gander as well.

I will not contest that Peter did minister to Gentiles as opportunity presented itself...especially in a Cornelius situation, that is Gentile God Fearer's worshiping God through Judaism.

But Paul ministers to many Jews as is plain from scripture.

Apparently so....Synagogues were where the Gentile God Fearer's congregated.

Berean and thessalonian Jews in Acts 17. Ephesian Jews in the Letter to timothy (who was a Jew). He even writes the book of HEBREWS. So you raise red herrings I am afriad. Do you never read your oppents arguemnts.

You like the red herring term don't you...? it makes you sound authoritive...Paul has to preach to the Jews as well...the syanagogue is where the God Fearers would be found. Peter and the boys were to concentrate on winning Jews....even Christ himself concentrated on winning the Jews...not Gentiles.....why?....Because the Jews were to be the light (example) to the nations. It was Christ's goal to do that... Convert the Jews first then the Gentiles....that is why the 12 were sent to the Jews...and Paul to the Gentiles. :)

It also presented who the "Peter" at Rome was....Simon Magnus....

The name Simon does not equal the name Peter. They are two COMPLETELY different names. So Simon Magnus would not have been called Peter.

They are both called "Simon". Simon Magnus could have changed his name to Peter....Magnus was from Samaria and would have been well versed in Judaism and the events in that area....Nobody in Rome knew who Paul was....How would they be able to tell the difference between Mangus and Peter....Especially, if magnus was the magician he appeared to be...he coold have easily fooled the believers of Rome....


Anyway it is not a provable point, so your 10K is safe.....

Give it the old college try somebody.

It is safe to say if the Apostle Peter was in Rome....Christianity would look very different than it is today....It diffenetely would be more Jewish...

Hmmm. It would be more Catholic. :-D

Hmmmm..... :)


[/quote:3a4c5]
 
Thank you for yet another post filled with personal opinion and individual eisegesis as well as speculative history and theology. The historical elements of your post ignore the writings of Christianity in the early Church. sad. I understand that you must come up with these wild theories about simon changing his name to peter and taking control of the Church. :o It allows you to remain in your own personal theology.

21: And then if any one says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or `Look, there he is!' do not believe it.


Anyone want to take a crack at the 10 grand? That is after all what this thread is about.
 
Thessalonian said:
Thank you for yet another post filled with personal opinion and individual eisegesis as well as speculative history and theology. The historical elements of your post ignore the writings of Christianity in the early Church. sad.

Yeh sort of like your attempt to promote Peter as The Apostle to the Gentiles....

I understand that you must come up with these wild theories about simon changing his name to peter and taking control of the Church. :o It allows you to remain in your own personal theology.

That about sums it up.....how else does that Church develop avay from Judaism....Peter was a strict Jew...even in his dietary practices...it's obvious he wasn't in Rome....the ending result of the Church prove that....and you can call it wild speculation all you want....that doesn't change that fact.

21: And then if any one says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or `Look, there he is!' do not believe it.

Nice.....however not pertainent....to this conversation.

Anyone want to take a crack at the 10 grand? That is after all what this thread is about.

Just responding to your post....and you are welcome...I give my opiinion (wanted or unwanted) generously.....as far as the 10K is concerned..no one can prove it conclusively....
 
I have not even seen anthing more than a very feeble attempt is the problem. But hanks for keeping this thread up toward the top.
 
Thess said:
I'll write you out a check if you can do it. 1 Explanation. 8 quotes with the total years adding up to less than my 8 quotes. That's it.

Hey Thess, I'll bite!

Just send me your bank information so I can verify that you really have the funds :-D
 
StoveBolts said:
Thess said:
I'll write you out a check if you can do it. 1 Explanation. 8 quotes with the total years adding up to less than my 8 quotes. That's it.

Hey Thess, I'll bite!

Just send me your bank information so I can verify that you really have the funds :-D

I'm a man of my word. If you can produce the info I'll work it out. My wife will kill me but I will work it out.
 
Sorry. Don't give out personal banking info to strangers. You'll just have to trust me on it. Present your case. Thanks.
 
So were at a stalemate? :wink:

Tell you what, let me give you a P.O. Box and you can mail me a cashiers check. (Just so I know you have the money 8-) ) If I loose, I'll send you back the money. :bday:
 
StoveBolts said:
So were at a stalemate? :wink:

Tell you what, let me give you a P.O. Box and you can mail me a cashiers check. (Just so I know you have the money 8-) ) If I loose, I'll send you back the money. :bday:

I tell you what. Give me that P.O. box and I will send you a notarized statement saying that if you fullfill the terms specified above I owe you 10 grand.
 
By the way, I want to thank you for keeping this thread toward the top for me, in front of the eyes of those who insist that Peter was never in Rome, yet can't support it with any legitimate arguement. :-D
 
Thessalonian said:
No takers? So many of you are sure Peter was never in Rome. Common! Call my bluff if that's what you think it is. :o

Happy Tues, Thess! :-D

I only just recalled who ya remind me of.. :wink:

It may surprise many readers to know that my time in interdenominational charismatic Moorlands Bible College was before I made the transfer to Elim

The guy I admired most, in a way, was a guy for removed in theology

In fact, when he told that he felt pressured to leave that he was gonna, he had the guts to ask me straight, in front of many students, if I'd engineered it

I said, "Tony, I disagree diametrically with nearly everything U say, but I'd fight to the death for your right to say it..

"I truly think that our most valuable fellowship, in training here, is not with those who dot every i & cross every t where we do, but with those who drive us to the Bible - a la Bereans of Acts 17:11 - to see who's right & who's wrong" :roll:

Actually, what I said there was, "I have always thoroughly enjoyed your fellowship, Tony, & I'm very sorry to hear that U R leaving, 'cos it's you who most drives me to the Bible, to make sure I'm right" :P

(I've mellowed justa tiny bit in the past 27 years!... :lol:

which reminds me that my birthday verse is Psalm 27:1 - it'll help readers to see it, OK?) 8-)

Psalm 27:1 (New International Version)


Psalm 27
Of David.


1 The LORD is my light and my salvationâ€â€
whom shall I fear?
The LORD is the stronghold of my lifeâ€â€
of whom shall I be afraid?

Anyway, I just have time to go cut & paste my demolition of your silly signature, dude :P

Right back... :angel:

It's 4th post on page 4 of this fascinating thread.. :)

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 849#246849

...of which that links to top of page 2, where I come in to liven things up a tad!! ;-)

Here's the 4x4 link, as both posts are freshly edited & feature even more goodies than before, folks.. 8-)

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 921#247921

Enjoy! :multi:

Ian
 
What post? :o

Birmingham's gonna hit Liverpool's goal post tonight in error? :wink:

Right back..
8-)
centre forward.. :roll:

& substitute goalie... :bday:

Speaking of which - he said in his best Pat Robertson in '700 Club' regular 'Bring It On!' voice..

Pontifex Maximus was a Babylon pagan occult title - as was 'college of cardinals'

Only in the 4th century did Rome claim pre-eminence for their Bish of Rome

Tish, tish, bish!!

The keys on Papa Ratzi's uniform are of the 2-faced pagan Roman 'god' Janus

Cardinal means hinge :roll:

These bozos are just SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO unhinged, dudes! :oops:

It's all in the superbly meticulous "The Two Babylons" by Rev Alexander Hislop - where the 2 links in my last post lead ya to read, mark, learn, inwardly digest & pass on to your networks, OK?

Must go!

Ian
 
Is anyone going to make a rational effort at defending that Peter was never in Rome? Can anyone explain why the early writers said that he was in Rome? Can anyone find a writer between 0 AD and 1515 AD who explicitly or otherwise says Peter was never in Rome? If not stop this ridiculous nonsense of arguing from silence with scripture. "Well the Bible doesn't say he was in Rome so he wasn't". :oops:
 
Thess:I wasn't going to reply to this thread because I frankly think it is fruitless. I don't think you would believe it if God Himself told you. "Proof" is only what one is willing to accept anyway and neither side would consider anothers' "proof" anyway. So what is the point?Can anyone prove Peter was IN ROME? NO! A THOUSAND TIMES NO! Oh, you can site NON-INSPIRED writings indicating someone named Peter. But the ONLY INSPIRED book we have says NOTHING about Peter ever being in Rome. Was he ever in Rome? I really don't care one way or the other. It has nothing to do with salvation and my faith in Christ Jesus.The church Jesus built was built upon HIM; not Peter! It began in Jerusalem; NOT ROME!So make your challenge and feel good about yourself that no one can "prove" to your satisfaction, but then on the other hand can you "prove" that the apostle Peter was in Rome? Didn't think so!By the way, I have talked with enough Catholics to know their arguments against what I would use as "proof" from the Bible. So I want get into that with you. Oh! One other thing, when did Peter supposedly go to Rome?
 
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