A bit of a lament

[ChristineES]

I have been on this board for a couple of months and I have joined many others as well, and I can't help but noticing something about all these boards.

It is: People do not seem to be very concerned with learning more about the Bible and scriptures. It seems that everyone is interested in attacking each other's denominations, or different beliefs that each individual may have. Or they want to "prove their point" on different beliefs. I don't mind debates at all, and in fact enjoy some of them, but that is all we do!
No one seems to want to discuss The Bible at all. I have posted many times in the Bible Study section, and they are usually ignored. I know that every time I read the Bible I come across something that I overlooked or just never thought about. That is the kind of thing I would like to discuss. I want to discuss different events and people talked about in the OT and the NT. I want to talk about their faith against all odds and how they can apply to us.
I wonder if any one else is even interested in that at all. I stopped posting stuff about the bible a couple of weeks ago because no one was interested in it.
Well, I certainly expected no answers to this, I just wanted to let off steam.
Christine

 

[Sothenes]

Christine,

I would love to study the Bible with you in a public forum.

I'm a busy parent trying to write a theology book for my child so when my children grow up, they can see that Dad fought for the truth making it easier for them to live in this world.

I write Bible studies and biblical articles and it takes me hours so I'm not really fast. I'll try to get started but I don't know if I can do anything immediate today.

Sosthenes

 

[ChristineES]

Great. Sounds cool. :-D

 

[ArtGuy]

The open-minded among us will learn more about their own faiths through the process of arguing their positions with others with whom they disagree. The closed-minded among us feel they already have a lock on the truth, and don't much care to hear any points that could serve to enrich their spirituality.

Both types of people tend to find themselves in debates here. Those who stand to gain will gain. Those who don't... well, it's their loss. In short, don't knock all the debating the goes on. It's a very useful way of acquiring knowledge. It's also a good logical exercise.

 

[ChristineES]

The open-minded among us will learn more about their own faiths through the process of arguing their positions with others with whom they disagree. The closed-minded among us feel they already have a lock on the truth, and don't much care to hear any points that could serve to enrich their spirituality.

Both types of people tend to find themselves in debates here. Those who stand to gain will gain. Those who don't... well, it's their loss. In short, don't knock all the debating the goes on. It's a very useful way of acquiring knowledge. It's also a good logical exercise.

I don't mind debates, I enjoy them at times. But I also want to learn what others get out certain bible stories, like David, Abraham or whatever. I like to learn what they get from it that I may have missed.

 

[peace4all]

I used to ask alot abotu scripture, Because I never read it in context. I would pick and chosoe and be liek :OMG THIS IS HORRIBLE"

I still use the bible as one of the Biggest reasons as to my faith (being an atheist)

I often try to quote parts of the bible in debate, but it rarely comes up anymore, because every time I would point out "love thy neighbor" or examples of how Jesus would care for all those, and not discriminate agaisnt peopel that shunned him, I get shown 10 passages that are the exact opposite...

The bible is an interesting book, and its interpretations are what create sooo many problems.

 

[ArtGuy]

I don't mind debates, I enjoy them at times. But I also want to learn what others get out certain bible stories, like David, Abraham or whatever. I like to learn what they get from it that I may have missed.

Yes, I can understand your plight. Posting interpretations of Bible stories generally yields one of two response archetypes: the "Amen, brother, you're totally right!" type; and the "Man, what? You must be a secular atheist hippie liberal commie pinko America-hater!" type. There isn't much in the way of non-confrontational discussion. People don't seem to be interested in things where they don't get to heatedly disagree.

 

[Sothenes]

The open-minded among us will learn more about their own faiths through the process of arguing their positions with others with whom they disagree. The closed-minded among us feel they already have a lock on the truth, and don't much care to hear any points that could serve to enrich their spirituality.

Both types of people tend to find themselves in debates here. Those who stand to gain will gain. Those who don't... well, it's their loss. In short, don't knock all the debating the goes on. It's a very useful way of acquiring knowledge. It's also a good logical exercise.

I have 8-9 commentaries, Greek Theological Dictionaries, Greek Lexicons, a good number of commentaries, other books and resources. I don't mind people studying their Bibles but what I get from most Bible studies is someone reading the notes out of their study Bible and they leave feeling that they have done serious study when they only read their Study Bible notes. There is a difference between teaching about the Bible and teaching from the Bible. I want to teach from the Bible. It is one thing to listen to someone give a Bible study but it is another thing to read the same text and to teach it by yourself. Some pastors can spend at least 25 hours studying what they wish to teach and that is an understatement because I found new ways to spend more time studying any particular text. I spent years acquiring material that teaches me about particular topics and in return I spent hours every night for months studying different topics. A lot of people have ideas about the Bible but they are merely superimposing their uneducated position on the texts.

As far as debating is concerned, I've been forced into it because people started attacking and opposing the truth when I started my public evangelism in 1986. The only reasons I "debate" is to help save the souls of others or for your sakes. Jude 3 says to defend the faith which was once delivered to the saints. It is necessary to defend the faith for the young and the Biblically illiterate which I feel amounts to a very large percentage of society. I could put a pastor's test up here to see how well you all know your Bibles but I won't because that would unintentionally insult people here but anyone who has seen past Barna reports (surveys) understands that society doesn't have the truth about the Bible. That is one reason I decided to switch from pure evangelism to evangelism through teaching the Word of God so I'm standing up for others by doing it.

 

[ArtGuy]

The only reasons I "debate" is to help save the souls of others or for your sakes.

This could be part of what Christine was lamenting. When you step into a discussion with the sole intent of telling everyone else that they're wrong and that they should listen to you so their souls may be saved, it just leads to a bunch of sniping and bickering. And when everyone in a debate feels that his is the One True Way, and that everyone else is on the road to hell, the end result is never very rewarding.

Debate and discussion should be a learning experience. So, ideally, should teaching. If you're not prepared to learn from those with whom you're conversing, you're doing yourself no favors.

 

[ChristineES]

The only reasons I "debate" is to help save the souls of others or for your sakes.

This could be part of what Christine was lamenting. When you step into a discussion with the sole intent of telling everyone else that they're wrong and that they should listen to you so their souls may be saved, it just leads to a bunch of sniping and bickering. And when everyone in a debate feels that his is the One True Way, and that everyone else is on the road to hell, the end result is never very rewarding.

Debate and discussion should be a learning experience. So, ideally, should teaching. If you're not prepared to learn from those with whom you're conversing, you're doing yourself no favors.

That's right, Artguy!

 

[Sothenes]

The only reasons I "debate" is to help save the souls of others or for your sakes.

This could be part of what Christine was lamenting. When you step into a discussion with the sole intent of telling everyone else that they're wrong and that they should listen to you so their souls may be saved, it just leads to a bunch of sniping and bickering. And when everyone in a debate feels that his is the One True Way, and that everyone else is on the road to hell, the end result is never very rewarding.

Debate and discussion should be a learning experience. So, ideally, should teaching. If you're not prepared to learn from those with whom you're conversing, you're doing yourself no favors.

I follow Jesus so if truth isn't protected then what I do is cut off fellowship because the Bible is based on God's ideas that we should 'contend' for the faith (Jude 3) and no matter what Greek dictionary you look it up in, 'contend' means to fight though we try to always do it with gentleness and respect.

The second point is that I don't just tell people they are wrong but I try to give them reasons why they are wrong. Any thinking person can decide if they love stuff more than Jesus and whether they will follow themselves or whether they will follow God. According to the laws of evidence, unless someone here has some credentials, its a good guess that all that is offered is just someone's personal ideas instead of fact. That is why I cling to my reference books and the Bible because I'm not a lover of nonsense.

 

[ArtGuy]

The second point is that I don't just tell people they are wrong but I try to give them reasons why they are wrong.

:

I take it back. You are a bastion of open-mindedness.

The important thing is to realize that Jesus was the son of God and died for our sins. The rest is, comparatively speaking, trivia. We have our own ideas as to how we should interpret these things, as a result of scholars and experts and our own common sense telling us which bits mean what, but these are all subject to the machinations of human error. There are as many interpretations of the Bible as there are Christians, and none of us have any special claim to ultimate truth. Yes, yes, the Word of God is unabashedly correct, sure. That's not terribly helpful.

The other day I told my daughter to get some pants. She went down the hallway, and when she returned, was very proudly wearing a T-shirt shoved up over her legs as if it were a pair of shorts. If pressed, she would undoubtedly have asserted that she was adhering to the literal truth of what I said. But her earnestness and honesty wouldn't change the fact that she was, while quite adorable, also very mistaken.

Such as it is with God. He has given us an exhaustive list of rules and guidelines and truths by which to live. And as a race of error-prone men, we have proceeded to get an awful lot of it wrong. This doesn't mean we're bad or spiteful or unchristian; it means we've screwed up. And this is something that we must always remember: at the end of the day, what we feel is the ultimate truth is being filtered through our own propensity to be fabulously, mindbendingly wrong. Which is why I don't get too bent out of shape when I run across someone who has a different take on the Bible than I do - even if it's wildly different. To the extent they're willing to listen to my own take and respect it as I do theirs (and to the extent theirs isn't something abhorrent, like "let's kill all the gays"), I don't think any harm is being done.

God knows that we're a foolish bunch. I don't think he's going to be too hard on us for getting the details wrong, if we adhere to the big picture, and have noble intentions in our hearts.

 

[Sothenes]

The second point is that I don't just tell people they are wrong but I try to give them reasons why they are wrong.

:

I take it back. You are a bastion of open-mindedness.

The important thing is to realize that Jesus was the son of God and died for our sins. The rest is, comparatively speaking, trivia. We have our own ideas as to how we should interpret these things, as a result of scholars and experts and our own common sense telling us which bits mean what, but these are all subject to the machinations of human error. There are as many interpretations of the Bible as there are Christians, and none of us have any special claim to ultimate truth. Yes, yes, the Word of God is unabashedly correct, sure. That's not terribly helpful.

(Extra deleted)

God knows that we're a foolish bunch. I don't think he's going to be too hard on us for getting the details wrong, if we adhere to the big picture, and have noble intentions in our hearts.

(1) We are without excuse ( Romans 1:20) so if you think that there are as many opinions as Christians then most of the opinions are wrong. If everyone jumps off a bridge, are you going to follow?
(2) Jesus said, 'it is written' (Matthew 1:4, Matthew 1:7, Matthew 1:10) and it doesn't matter if you have the big picture but fail the rest then sin pays you a paycheck "For the wages of sin is death" ( Romans 6:23 ). It does matter if you sin because "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged." ( 1 Corinthians 11:31 ) and "for this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep." ( 1 Corinthians 11:30). "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." (Galatians 6:7) The Bible says,"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required." ( Luke 12:47-48). There are crowns that you could get but are you going to be worthy of a pastor's crown if you aren't being faithful to the truth because you don't think truth is attainable? And what is going to be your reward in heaven if you bury your talents ( Matthew 25:15-30)? If you make it to the Bema Seat of Christ, God will try your works by the fire and if your works burn up then you will suffer loss (1 Corinthians 3:15).
(3) There is a greater judgment for those who teach (James 3:1)
(4) It doesn't matter if you follow God and are sincere in your hearts. I'm sure there are many people in cults who are sincere in their hearts but they find themselves in Jonestown being forced to drink spiritual Koolade. Do you remember Jim Jones?
(5) How many books have you read on inerrancy? Can you give me a bibliography? Can you list the different theories of inerrancy? Can you explain inerrancy? Don't you think that if God can create and knows the end from the beginning that He understands and took account for mechanical errors in the transmission of the Bible? I believe that God's word is sufficient just as if I study and believe that I study sufficiently for a test that I will get an "A" but you give God less credit.

You believe that none of us have any claim to ultimate truth. Very good. You would have to agree with scripture that "..straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:14). All those other ways makes it hard for you to believe that there is a way so you have stopped looking as hard because you don't believe that there is a corner on the truth. There is a corner on the truth:

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."- John 14:6

There is no other way, friend.

 

[ArtGuy]

(1) We are without excuse ( Romans 1:20) so if you think that there are as many opinions as Christians then most of the opinions are wrong.

Yes, most of them are. Including, likely, both yours and mine.

(2) doesn't matter if you have the big picture but fail the rest then sin pays you a paycheck "For the wages of sin is death" ( Romans 6:23 ). It does matter if you sin because "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged."

None of us are free of sin. That's the whole point, which you seemingly miss. Even if you knew with perfect accuracy every rule of the Bible, you would still sin, because you're only human. We should try our hardest not to sin, but we should also not beat ourselves up when we inevitably fail. Because, as I said and you ignored, the only prerequisite to getting into heaven is to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and savior. So yes, the big picture is, in the end, all that matters.

(4) It doesn't matter if you follow God and are sincere in your hearts. I'm sure there are many people in cults who are sincere in their hearts but they find themselves in Jonestown being forced to drink spiritual Koolade. Do you remember Jim Jones?

Members of cults are generally not Christian, inasumuch as they have not accepted Christ. They would thus fail the whole "following God" part.

(5) How many books have you read on inerrancy? Can you give me a bibliography? Can you list the different theories of inerrancy? Can you explain inerrancy?

Books? None. Articles and other writings? A whole lot.

Bibliography? No. Because I'm not in school, you're not my teacher, and I don't feel the need to earn your approval, even if I had a list of everything I'd ever read on the matter sitting in front of me. Even if I'd read everything ever written on inerrancy, you wouldn't grant my opinion any greater weight, because you disagree with it. So what's the point of your interrogation? Trying to trap me into admitting ignorance? Or maybe you were hoping to counter with an exhaustive list of your own study guides?

The theory of inerrancy that I subscribe to is that the Bible, in its original form, was without error, though I don't believe that inerrancy requires strict literalism. I also don't subscribe to the notion held by some that every translation of the Bible is guided by the hand of God and is thus also inerrant, because this idea is so obviously false that anyone who's done five minutes of research could repudiate it.

Don't you think that if God can create and knows the end from the beginning that He understands and took account for mechanical errors in the transmission of the Bible?

He could've, sure. But he obviously didn't, given the vast number of translations that directly contradict one another.

You believe that none of us have any claim to ultimate truth. Very good. You would have to agree with scripture that "..straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:14). All those other ways makes it hard for you to believe that there is a way so you have stopped looking as hard because you don't believe that there is a corner on the truth. There is a corner on the truth.

Oh, I haven't stopped looking for truth. I just recognize that everyone I ever talk to on the matter is likely mistaken on at least a few points. There is a corner on the truth, but that doesn't mean anyone knows what it is outside of God. Just as the fact that there was a precise number of leaves on the ground in a particular clearing in Iowa 563 years ago doesn't mean that anyone other than God will ever know exactly what that number is.

Divorce yourself of your belief in your own infallibility, and you'll be better equipped to both teach and to learn.

 

[Sothenes]

(5) How many books have you read on inerrancy? Can you give me a bibliography? Can you list the different theories of inerrancy? Can you explain inerrancy?

Books? None. Articles and other writings? A whole lot.

Bibliography? No. Because I'm not in school, you're not my teacher, and I don't feel the need to earn your approval, even if I had a list of everything I'd ever read on the matter sitting in front of me. Even if I'd read everything ever written on inerrancy, you wouldn't grant my opinion any greater weight, because you disagree with it. So what's the point of your interrogation? Trying to trap me into admitting ignorance? Or maybe you were hoping to counter with an exhaustive list of your own study guides?

I'm not your teacher but according to my schooling, you need to abide by the laws of evidence which means that you need a credentialed and respected source and you didn't provide me with a Bibliography but you are making statements as if they are fact and I wanted to know what evidence you have besides your feelings. Your feelings can change tomorrow but the truth stays the same and what I want is truth because your feelings won't tell me what is true.