A Cessationist Passage? Part 2

[Hidden In Him]

Is 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 A Cessationist Passage?



Note: This was originally posted in Theology, but for the sake of focusing more exclusively on the text at hand we have elected to repost in Apologetics and approach it afresh.

In 1st Corinthians 13, Paul stated the following: "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect comes, that which is in part will be set aside... for now we see through a glass darkly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know even as I have been known" (1 Corinthians 13:8-10, 12).

The Greek used here was βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι' ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον, which reads literally as "now we see through a glass in an enigma, but then face to face." Paul was here making use of Numbers 12, where it states, "Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud. He stood at the entrance to the tent, and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When the two of them stepped forward, He said, 'Listen to My words. When there is a prophet among you, I the Lord reveal Myself to him in visions. I speak to him in dreams. But this is not true of My servant Moses. He is faithful in all My house. With him I speak face to face clearly, and not in enigmas. He sees the [very] form of the Lord. Why, then, were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses?” (Numbers 12:5-8, LXX).

Paul used the same two phrases from this passage in Numbers from the LXX (Greek translation of the Old Testament), which shows this is the passage he was alluding to, and he used these exact same two expressions to make the same comparisons. God spoke "face to face" (πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον) with Moses, but to His prophets He spoke "in enigmas" (ἐν αἰνίγματι). An enigma is what a prophetic dream or vision is like. It is a riddle, which is why some translations read, "For now we see through a glass in obscurity (or in riddles)." Throughout ancient Greek, the word αίνιγμα is almost invariably translated into English as "dark sayings, riddles," hence the translations, "seeing through a glass darkly." In ancient times, glass was not nearly as refined as it is now. You could see through it a little, but the image was often very blurry and "dark," thus it took perception to discern what you were actually looking at through it. This parallels with what it is like to interpret prophetic dreams and visions, and also to what it is like prophesying directly over the lives of others one does not know. The one prophesying doesn't have a clue about the person he is prophesying over, so he is simply uttering what the Spirit of God is leading him to say even though at the moment he is still completely in the dark about it.

Chapters 12 through 14 deal with the issue of operating in tongues and prophecy, and point out how prophecy is superior, being the greater gift, because it brings greater edification to the saints. But until we get to Heaven, Biblical prophecy would always be needed because we do not truly see one another face to face yet and know one another's inner most secrets as God does. In conclusion then and in context, the passage has nothing to do with the gifts ceasing or the canon being closed. Quite the opposite, it teaches the need for the gifts until the Lord comes.

Below is a Christian apologist discussing this passage, and the pros and cons of the two most prominent Cessationist arguments. I have not finished it yet, but I have found the parts I have been able to watch quite informative. Comments on either my write up or the video are welcome, but please keep the discussion centered on 1 Corinthians 13 and the surrounding Chapters and verses.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

 

[Hidden In Him]

Posted by Arial on another thread:

Numbers 12:8 I speak to him face to face, clearly, and not in riddles (αἰνίγματι) ESV ;NIV;NLV;BSB. Many translations use "dark sayings". The most common is "riddles".

1 Cor 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly (αἰνίγματι)but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. ESV;BLB "in obscurity"; KJV "through a glass darkly" and so on.

It was asserted that was dealing with Cessationism and Continuism as to prophets and prophecy being active in the modern church just as they were in the scriptures, that Numbers is verifying that they are by Paul's statement. That the two sets of passages are both saying the same thing. The grounding for that was the use of the Greek word αἰνίγματι in both passages, and the interpretation of that word as being enigma. I will not quibble over that translation as "enigma" is one of the Greek usages. However, is not an enigma the same thing as all the other definitions given if you look up the Greek word in lexicons? So that is irrelevant to the argument.

My position is that the two passages are not dealing with the same thing. Not to mention that it is not the OT that interprets the NT but the other way around, for the simple fact that many things were mysteries in the OT that could not be known until those mysteries actually appeared in our history.

Part 2 Numbers 12 and 1 Cor 13

Numbers 12 is dealing with Miriam and Aaron opposing Moses. 1-9 Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married, for he had married a Cushite woman. And they said, "Has the Lord indeed spoken only through Moses? Has he not spoken through us also?" And the Lord heard it. Now the man Moses was very meek, more than all people who were on the face of the earth. And suddenly the Lord said to Moses and to Aaron and Miriam, "Come out, you three, to the tent of meeting." And the three of them came out. And the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud and stood at the entrance of the tent and called Aaron and Miriam, and they both came forward. And he said, "Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the Lord make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them, and he departed.


Hidden In Him

What is going on there? Is God saying how he always communicates with his prophets----through dreams and visions?Obviously not for there are many instances where that is not the case and it wasn't with Moses. Or is he telling the three how he communicates with them at that time? Are dreams and visions the subject of what God is saying? Or is he using it to make a comparison to his normal at that time way of giving his word to prophets and the way in which he communicates with Moses? If the communicating is more direct, rather than dreams and visions which are indirect and therefore a bit of a riddle unless God himself explains it or sends someone to do so, then what is being pointed out is the dangerous brazenness of complaining against Moses, who spoke directly with God. Dreams and visions as enigmas, or riddles, are not as easy to validate, subject as they are to humans saying what they mean.

What I have said can find support in Hebrews 1:1-2 where it tells us that as redemption progresses through history, God communicates with humans in different ways. And the one way in which he does so now. Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the Prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Lets compare with 1 Cor 13 and its context. In chapter 12, Paul goes to great pains to impress upon the Corinthians that all who are in Christ are one body, all of equal value. This is a result of what was severely lacking in that church, and their misuse of the gifts. It is available for all to read. In chapter 13, called the love chapter with verses 1-7 pulled from the context of the letter and used as a definition of love itself, rather than instruction on how we are to treat one another as a unified body of family, we have what follows.

When we get to verse 8-12 Paul writes Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child, When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

Is this even remotely what God was speaking about in Numbers and Paul refers to above, simply because the same Greek word αἰνίγματι, is used in both passages as the other OP asserted? Does it connect the two passages and in doing so make what Paul is saying that prophecy in the sense of foretelling of future events is ongoing and that he speaks to his modern day prophets through dreams and visions, and by extension that those who do that are prophets?

And to probe farther, can 1 Cor 13:8 be used as a proof text for either view, cessationism or continuism? I say the answer is no. When Paul says those gifts will cease when the perfect comes, he must mean the consummation of redemption, for he declares that now we see through a glass dimly, our knowledge is imperfect, but then we will know even as we are known and we will see him face to face. Where do we see him face to face in Scripture. Rev 21:3-4 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying , nor pain anymore. for the former things have passed away."

Does it then say that prophecy will continue until Christ's return? Not in the way Continuists are interpreting and using prophecy, as God giving new revelations through dreams and visions or any other means. A Prophet in the OT was one appointed to speak for God. God communicated to humanity through them. There are no more Prophets because as is stated in Heb 1:1-2 he no longer communicates to us through Prophets but through Jesus Christ.

So what does that mean, through Jesus Christ? It means that when the last word of the apostles, inspired by God, through and in the Spirit of Christ, all that God intended us to have, was penned, the "story" is complete in all that is needed as to divine revelation and truth. It is in that book, the Bible. It even ends with the admonition---"do not add to it or take away from it." But that does not mean there is not prophesying in the body of Christ---which is speaking those words of God that we have, expounding on them, teaching them, maintaining sound doctrine. The whole body should be doing so as we spread the gospel and contend for the faith.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Numbers 12:8 I speak to him face to face, clearly, and not in riddles (αἰνίγματι) ESV ;NIV;NLV;BSB. Many translations use "dark sayings". The most common is "riddles".

1 Cor 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly (αἰνίγματι)but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. ESV;BLB "in obscurity"; KJV "through a glass darkly" and so on.

Arial. Ok, now remember that we are not simply dealing with the presence of ἐν αἰνίγματι here ("in enigmas"), but also πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον ("face to face") in both passages. The presence of both terms in use together is what makes the case much stronger that Paul was using the text in Numbers from a purely linguistic point of view.

I will not quibble over that translation as "enigma" is one of the Greek usages.

Also keep in mind that this is literally the word "enigma" in Greek. It was pronounced slightly differently, but it is in actuality the same word we use today. I agree it can be translated in different ways, but it still bares the same meaning in modern English as it did back then. I think the terms "dark sayings" was simply used to try and make it more readily understandable. "Riddles" would be more accurate if a different word absolutely had to be used, but the translation of "enigma" is to be preferred IMO because it is the most literal.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Is God saying how he always communicates with his prophets----through dreams and visions?

I think he also speaks to prophets directly, for Moses himself is sometimes referred to in scholarship as a prophet. However, the distinction being made in Numbers 12 is between those whom God speaks directly to and those whom He speaks to in dreams and visions. The point is that there's a greater level of accuracy because Moses was hearing God word for word, and not to question his authority.

If the communicating is more direct, rather than dreams and visions which are indirect and therefore a bit of a riddle unless God himself explains it or sends someone to do so, then what is being pointed out is the dangerous brazenness of complaining against Moses, who spoke directly with God. Dreams and visions as enigmas, or riddles, are not as easy to validate, subject as they are to humans saying what they mean.

That's correct.

What I have said can find support in Hebrews 1:1-2 where it tells us that as redemption progresses through history, God communicates with humans in different ways. And the one way in which he does so now. Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the Prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Ok, but now this passage cannot be used to say that He no longer speaks to us through prophets at all, because he was writing in present tense, and at that time the prophets were still operating in the churches.

Let's compare with 1 Cor 13 and its context. In chapter 12, Paul goes to great pains to impress upon the Corinthians that all who are in Christ are one body, all of equal value. This is a result of what was severely lacking in that church, and their misuse of the gifts. It is available for all to read. In chapter 13, called the love chapter with verses 1-7 pulled from the context of the letter and used as a definition of love itself, rather than instruction on how we are to treat one another as a unified body of family, we have what follows.

I would add that in context, Paul was describing the way they should treat one another when operating in the supernatural gifts. This was also pointed out by Mike Winger in the video I posted in the OP, and it is a key point in accurately understanding the context of everything being stated in 1 Corinthians 13.

When we get to verse 8-12 Paul writes Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child, When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

Excellent! This is exactly the part of the Chapter I was hoping to get into in discussing the proper interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13, so let me leave things here for the moment and maybe get back to this later. Should be an excellent discussion, and thank you for taking the time to discuss the passage in greater detail with me. I appreciate that, and it should be fun!