A different approach at disproving OSAS

[John Zain]

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name,
and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me,
you who practice lawlessness.’

Jesus never "knew" those who did NOT do God's will, e.g. those who did NOT do the following:
“For just as you (pre-BAC) presented your members as slaves of uncleanness,
and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness,
so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” (Romans 6:19)

Righteousness is doing God’s will (i.e. being obedient) … Lawlessness is NOT doing God’s will.
Matthew 25:46 … And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life
1 Peter 4:18 … Now “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1 John 3:7 … Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous

All of this NT "knowing" refers to an intimate-type of relationship, i.e the sheep, etc.
And this is the "knowing" prophesied concerning the new covenant (Jer 31:31-34 and Ezek 36:24-28).

IMO, part of NOT doing God's will is NOT obeying His commands,
or NOT really trying hard to obey ALL of His commands!
I say that a considerable number of BACs have been guilty of this.
Which means, they refused to really follow the promptings of the Spirit, etc.
"For as many as are being LED by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." (Romans 8:14)

IMO, obedience is of paramount importance.
BACs have been given every opportunity to excel at this because they have the Holy Spirit.
Paul says, "If the OT Jews were left strewn all over the desert floor, what about us if we disobey?"
The OT Jews, "God's chosen people", were given every opportunity to succeed (except no Holy Spirit).

Opinion ...
The word has been extremely cleverly written, almost to the point of deceivingly so!
It has been purposely written to somewhat hide how difficult it is to satisfy God.
Reason: too many people would be turned off and quit.
This also is nicely hidden ... Jesus warned, “First, count the cost of being My disciple.”

Opinion ...
It makes no sense for God to create BACs out of garbage, and take them into heaven for eternity ...
if they do NOT co-operate with Him in preparing themselves for this eternity with a totally holy God.
Logically, this means some will co-operate and some will not ... hence no OSAS.

 

[Deborah13]

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name,
and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me,
you who practice lawlessness.’

He NEVER knew them, they were NEVER saved.

 

[ezra]

He NEVER knew them, they were NEVER saved.

exactly 1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God. its a know so salvation not a think so- hope so not so till we see jesus but a KNOW SO that we can know beyond a shadow of doubt

 

[Free]

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name,
and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me,
you who practice lawlessness.’

He NEVER knew them, they were NEVER saved.

While that is true, it would seem that they thought they were saved.

 

[Deborah13]

While that is true, it would seem that they thought they were saved.

They may have but this scripture was to disprove OSAS. It does not.

 

[Brother Mike]

He NEVER knew them, they were NEVER saved.

I have looked at that.

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Someone not saved would not be expected to bring forth fruit.

Luk 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
Luk 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
Luk 13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Same idea, put in a different way, a tree that is designed to bring fourth fruit is not, so it's given a chance to produce fruit. Someone not even saved, would not be expected to bring forth fruit.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Casting out devils, and doing miracles, one has to be filled with the Holy Spirit. To be filled with the Holy Spirit, one must be saved. They get the free gift, they are saved, but not have produced any fruit. Free gifts mean nothing as God used a Donkey to save a prophet.

All of John Zains Scriptures point to the unsaved, or something not clear....... count the cost to be my disciple......... Not every saved person goes that length or has it in them.

Deborah, I believe a person by their own free will can decided they don't want Jesus anymore. I believe that. (I don't believe in OSAS A Calvinistic doctrine- Baptist) However, I also have to look at "ALL" the scripture and what exactly is said and what lines up with what.

Jesus said enter into the KINGDOM of heaven........ Why not just say heaven? It's entering into two things........ the Kingdom part and the Heaven Part.

A tree is cast away and burned.......................................... They do not enter into the Kingdom part of Heaven part.

Let's get some other scriptures to compare.

basileia- KINGDOM Literally means royalty with power.
βασιλεία
basileia; from G936; kingdom, sovereignty, royal power: - kingdom (159), kingdoms (3), reigns *(1)

Thayer:
1) royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
1a) not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom

To be given a Sovereign, Royal, ruling position.

This is how they would have heard it.................. You shall not enter into the Royal, ruling, Sovereign, position of Heaven............

A tree that does not bear fruit is burned by fire...........................

We need a scripture!!!

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

This is what Jesus said, we know them by their fruit, their works are shown. Did they produce fruit? Did they not produce fruit?

1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Any man that did not produce fruit is cut down and cast into the fire, Not everyone that says Lord, Lord shall get a reward or a Ruling, Sovereign, Royal position in Heaven. Everything they did is burnt up, they come for their crown and Jesus looking at the lack of fruit says depart, I never knew you. Yet they are still saved, as by Fire........

Mike.

 

[ezra]

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name,
and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me,
you who practice lawlessness.’

He NEVER knew them, they were NEVER saved.

While that is true, it would seem that they thought they were saved.

if you want to be totally correct this is dealing with false prophets Matthew 7:21-23

 

[Free]

While that is true, it would seem that they thought they were saved.

They may have but this scripture was to disprove OSAS. It does not.

Yes, I have already agreed to that.

 

[Free]

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name,
and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me,
you who practice lawlessness.’

He NEVER knew them, they were NEVER saved.

While that is true, it would seem that they thought they were saved.

if you want to be totally correct this is dealing with false prophets Matthew 7:21-23

Yes, exactly.

 

[Elijah674]

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name,
and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me,
you who practice lawlessness.’

He NEVER knew them, they were NEVER saved.

Well then how about these?
Heb. 6
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

+

2 Peter 2
[18] For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
[19] While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
[20] For [[if after they have escaped]] the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

--Elijah

 

[ezra]

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name,
and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me,
you who practice lawlessness.’

He NEVER knew them, they were NEVER saved.

Well then how about these?
Heb. 6
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

+

2 Peter 2
[18] For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
[19] While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
[20] For [[if after they have escaped]] the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

--Elijah

they never was saved in the beginning not sure if you ever been around pigs on a farm. but you can clean them up turn them lose 1st thing hit ye old mud hole and wallow . the debate can you lose your salvation. honestly i can not prove either or nor do i want to find out. i just know i am secure in HIM :amen

 

[Deborah13]

Casting out devils, and doing miracles, one has to be filled with the Holy Spirit. To be filled with the Holy Spirit, one must be saved. They get the free gift, they are saved, but not have produced any fruit. Free gifts mean nothing as God used a Donkey to save a prophet.

Did the Holy Spirit use the donkey? Yep
Was that donkey saved? No
So to me that says that the Holy Spirit can use any human donkey He wants to.

Can the agents of satan do mircles? Yes they can.

Can an agent of satan use Jesus name? imo No

There is a scripture where the apostles tell Jesus there was a man that was not one of them, using Jesus name to cast out demons. They told him to stop. Jesus told them not to do that, "that whoever was not against them, was for them". ?
Not saying I understand this completely, what Jesus was inferring.

All I am saying is that this scripture in the OP, does not disprove OSAS, which is what it was being used for.

As [MENTION=90680]ezra[/MENTION] pointed out, it is talking about false prophets.

 

[Elijah674]

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name,
and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me,
you who practice lawlessness.’

He NEVER knew them, they were NEVER saved.

Well then how about these?
Heb. 6
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

+

2 Peter 2
[18] For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
[19] While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
[20] For [[if after they have escaped]] the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

--Elijah

they never was saved in the beginning not sure if you ever been around pigs on a farm. but you can clean them up turn them lose 1st thing hit ye old mud hole and wallow . the debate can you lose your salvation. honestly i can not prove either or nor do i want to find out. i just know i am secure in HIM :amen

That is not what the verses teach! ['Were made Partakers of the Holy Ghost'] Even King Saul was given a New heart & was made into another man! 'God gave him another heart' 1 Sam. 10:6-9

And these are the worse kind!

--Elijah

 

[Deborah13]

Yet they are still saved, as by Fire........

What is your interpretation of this?

 

[ezra]

Yet they are still saved, as by Fire........

What is your interpretation of this?

wood hay stubble our own works of righteousness -flesh gold silver precious stones .works done in his name---spirit led sy not bro mike and that scripture imo has nothing to do if we are saved. as per losing or not losing salvation this is at the bema judgement seat

 

[ezra]

Yet they are still saved, as by Fire........

What is your interpretation of this?

wood hay stubble our own works of righteousness -flesh gold silver precious stones .works done in his name---spirit led sy not bro mike and that scripture imo has nothing to do if we are saved. as per losing or not losing salvation this is at the bema judgement seat double post sill putter

 

[Brother Mike]

What is your interpretation of this?

We need something to comparable to that. It sounds like saved, but just squeaking in. The mans works were burned up, He produced nothing for the Kingdom of God, but what He wanted to do. He did not die to self.

And yes, someone was using the Name of Jesus to cast out devils. The Lord was not against that. Jesus never said they that did not produce fruit did not really cast out devils. He never said they did not really do miracles or false miracles. He said you produced no fruit and by their fruit we know them. So depart from me, you do not enter into the (Kingdom of Heaven) or have a ruling part in heaven. That is the Greek.

So saved by fire, would have to be just that, cleaned and just making it through because one was saved, and no reward for fruit produced.

1Co_5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Here we have a man that was saved, but turned over to Satan to be destroyed so that he at least repents before he dies and his spirit saved. No reward (He did repent and get well later) nothing.

1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (Dead)

1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

This type of judgment is to keep the person from switching off God. Sick and dying people don't feel like sinning much but normally turn back to the Lord and repent. Some have died already, so Paul says Judge yourself, so you don't have to get judged. This type of judgment is not good.

We are Chastised of the Lord (Heb) but that means to instruct in the Word as in Classroom setting. Being corrected is different than this judgment where the goal is to keep you saved.

So saved by fire, having your works burned up (No Fruit) or Judged to save your spirit and not be condemned would indicate the Lord keeps those that still believe on Jesus. Their faith in Jesus keeps them from damnation as salvation is not by works. However, to keep them from going completely the other way and getting lost, this judgment comes some saved just by grace alone with no fruit.

Best I can explain it.

I do not think that Matt 7:21-24 is talking about saved people. But unsaved false prophets.

I thought that, but Jesus never corrected them about miracles or casting out devils. He said they produced no fruit and the Holy Spirit is a free gift as Devils are not casting out devils. He also talked about those that heard the word and were doers of the word. These folks must not have been doers. He was saying that it's possible to have the free gifts, but not be right with Him. We are also told that the tree is cut down and cast in the fire, Paul tells us that our fruit (Works) are tried by fire, and if burned up (Like Jesus said) then we are still saved.

Blessings.
Mike.

 

[John Zain]

I think you all went into panic mode and forgot to really look carefully @ the OP.

For example, it appears that you don't believe doing God's will is important,
whereas, IMO, it is what the passage is mostly about.

 

[Brother Mike]

wood hay stubble our own works of righteousness -flesh gold silver precious stones .works done in his name---spirit led sy not bro mike and that scripture imo has nothing to do if we are saved. as per losing or not losing salvation this is at the bema judgement seat double post sill putter

. I have no idea what all that means.

For example, it appears that you don't believe doing God's will is important,
whereas, IMO, it is what the passage is mostly about.

The question is not about doing the Will of God. That is of extreme importance. The question is, what happens if someone does not but yet believes on Jesus? How many believers are even taught they are suppose to hear God and follow his directions? You get thrown out of some church saying "Thus saith the Lord".. That is the question.

Mike.

 

[ezra]

I think you all went into panic mode and forgot to really look carefully @ the OP.

For example, it appears that you don't believe doing God's will is important,
whereas, IMO, it is what the passage is mostly about.

umm did not my post say be doers of the word. question do you do his will%100 of the time ?