A different interpretaion of REVELATION 12:4

[enlightened]

Because i interpret the Beginning (GEN 1-3) much different than most, the greatest difference being the fact i believe Adam is he who became the devil, serpent and satan, i also interpret differently scriptures which deal with these 'personages'. As such, i would like all to read the way i interpret REV 12:4. But, because it is only an interpretation, i cannot say it is the TRUTH (from GOD) or 'the way it is', but i can say i do believe it to be the truth.

Adam was created body, soul and Spirit; however, once he sinned by eating the 'forbidden' fruit, he died spiritually, as was promised in the Commandment. In fact, we all died spiriitually in Adam when he ate, for since then, most have been born 'dead to the spirit', and are in need of the quickening of the Spirit, by the Spirit. In essence then, we all lost 1/3 of that which GOD intended us to be, and we became simple mortal men (and women). This scripture, then, depicts that event.

 

[Butch5]

Because i interpret the Beginning (GEN 1-3) much different than most, the greatest difference being the fact i believe Adam is he who became the devil, serpent and satan, i also interpret differently scriptures which deal with these 'personages'. As such, i would like all to read the way i interpret REV 12:4. But, because it is only an interpretation, i cannot say it is the TRUTH (from GOD) or 'the way it is', but i can say i do believe it to be the truth.

Adam was created body, soul and Spirit; however, once he sinned by eating the 'forbidden' fruit, he died spiritually, as was promised in the Commandment. In fact, we all died spiriitually in Adam when he ate, for since then, most have been born 'dead to the spirit', and are in need of the quickening of the Spirit, by the Spirit. In essence then, we all lost 1/3 of that which GOD intended us to be, and we became simple mortal men (and women). This scripture, then, depicts that event.

Adam wasn't created body, soul, and spirit. Genesis says God formed Adam from the dust of the ground and breathed into him the breath of life and he became a living soul. So, the dust of the ground and the breath of God became a living soul. A soul is a living being consisting of dust of the ground (body) and the breath/sprit (same word) of God. The soul is not something separate from the body and spirit. Additionally, Adam didn't die spiritually when he ate from the tree. There is nothing ins Scripture that speaks of spiritual death.

Scripture says a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. Adam lived 930 years. He died the day (thousand years) that he eat of the tree. This is the ancient Jewish and early Christian understanding of the passage.

 

[tohelp]

In the Bible a verse can have many meanings. There could be literal meaning, allegorical meaning and spiritual meaning.

Let us take Adam and Eve for example.
Busch5 is right when he says Adam died in the same day as he died before 1000 years which is to God like 1 day. Literally that is the meaning.
enlightened is also right when he says that Adam's spirit died when he sinned. Adam became spiritually dead the moment he comitted a sin.

Man (or Adam) is not made of 2 parts as Butch5 claims. That is an error.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

What might be the image of God? God is Spirit and He does not have a body. So "image" obviously does not indicate physical appearance. So this verse tells us that there is something in us that resembles God. That is the Spirit. Man had a spirit in him that resembled God. But that spirit is now dead. When we accept Jesus as our savior, He brings our spirit back to life. We are born again.

But the above verse also has the word "likeness". This shows His qualities. Creativity, emotions, rationalizing ability, etc. There is a part of us with these features and that is the soul.

But I do not how the verse in revelation could denote 1/3 of man being dead. I would be happy if you could explain a bit.

 

[Butch5]

In the Bible a verse can have many meanings. There could be literal meaning, allegorical meaning and spiritual meaning.

Let us take Adam and Eve for example.
Busch5 is right when he says Adam died in the same day as he died before 1000 years which is to God like 1 day. Literally that is the meaning.
enlightened is also right when he says that Adam's spirit died when he sinned. Adam became spiritually dead the moment he comitted a sin.

Man (or Adam) is not made of 2 parts as Butch5 claims. That is an error.



What might be the image of God? God is Spirit and He does not have a body. So "image" obviously does not indicate physical appearance. So this verse tells us that there is something in us that resembles God. That is the Spirit. Man had a spirit in him that resembled God. But that spirit is now dead. When we accept Jesus as our savior, He brings our spirit back to life. We are born again.

But the above verse also has the word "likeness". This shows His qualities. Creativity, emotions, rationalizing ability, etc. There is a part of us with these features and that is the soul.

But I do not how the verse in revelation could denote 1/3 of man being dead. I would be happy if you could explain a bit.

Hi tohelp,

We have the account of Adam's creation. The only thing there is the body and God's breath/sprit, nothing else. No offence but all you've presented is your opinion. I've presented Scripture showing Adam's creation and there is no mention "man's spirit". Ecclesiastes tells us what happens when a man dies.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
(Ecc 3:18-21 KJV)

If you'll notice the text in blue, it says, "they all have one breath." The word translated breath, is also translated spirit and is the same word used in Genesis regarding the breath of life breathed into Adam. The passage in Ecclesiastes says that man and beast have "one" breath. We know from Adam's creation that that one spirit is God's. Job said,

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

There one spirit in a man, that spirit is God's and if he takes is back all flesh would die. There's only one spirit in a man.

Also, if you'll do a computer search of the Scriptures you'll find that there is "nothing" in the Scriptures that teaches spiritual death.

 

[enlightened]

Adam wasn't created body, soul, and spirit. Genesis says God formed Adam from the dust of the ground and breathed into him the breath of life and he became a living soul. So, the dust of the ground and the breath of God became a living soul. A soul is a living being consisting of dust of the ground (body) and the breath/sprit (same word) of God. The soul is not something separate from the body and spirit. Additionally, Adam didn't die spiritually when he ate from the tree. There is nothing ins Scripture that speaks of spiritual death.

Scripture says a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. Adam lived 930 years. He died the day (thousand years) that he eat of the tree. This is the ancient Jewish and early Christian understanding of the passage.

If you say that the promised death was a physical death, then you are saying that GOD promised Adam he would die just for eating a piece of fruit (all others say this too). But the fruit from forbidden tree was pleasant to the eyes and good for food (GEN1:9), and it is also one of the TWO trees which comprise the TREE of LIFE (REV22:1-2); therefore, you are saying GOD punished Adam with death for eating good food. Is this Just? Would the Law of man justify you for doing the same to your children, or would you be imprisoned? No, the dearth was a spiritual death because GOD is just.

But Adam did not die a physical death for eating, he died for lying to his wife and getting her to sin first. is it not worse to cause one to sin, than for one to sin themselves? Adam was a liar, and he cause mankind to be spiritually dead;
hence the quickening we need from the SPIRIT.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Because i interpret the Beginning (GEN 1-3) much different than most, the greatest difference being the fact i believe Adam is he who became the devil, serpent and satan, i also interpret differently scriptures which deal with these 'personages'. As such, i would like all to read the way i interpret REV 12:4. But, because it is only an interpretation, i cannot say it is the TRUTH (from GOD) or 'the way it is', but i can say i do believe it to be the truth.

Adam was created body, soul and Spirit; however, once he sinned by eating the 'forbidden' fruit, he died spiritually, as was promised in the Commandment. In fact, we all died spiriitually in Adam when he ate, for since then, most have been born 'dead to the spirit', and are in need of the quickening of the Spirit, by the Spirit. In essence then, we all lost 1/3 of that which GOD intended us to be, and we became simple mortal men (and women). This scripture, then, depicts that event.

One must do a lot of spinning and/or ignoring scripture to arrive at your conclusion, in my opinion.

In Genesis 3, YHWH Elohim(יְהֹוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֥ים) is clearly handing out long-term punishments to 3 different characters: Adam, his wife(she doesn't receive the name Eve until shortly after the punishments are declared), and the serpent.

 

[enlightened]

In the Bible a verse can have many meanings. There could be literal meaning, allegorical meaning and spiritual meaning.

Let us take Adam and Eve for example.
Busch5 is right when he says Adam died in the same day as he died before 1000 years which is to God like 1 day. Literally that is the meaning.
enlightened is also right when he says that Adam's spirit died when he sinned. Adam became spiritually dead the moment he comitted a sin.

Man (or Adam) is not made of 2 parts as Butch5 claims. That is an error.



What might be the image of God? God is Spirit and He does not have a body. So "image" obviously does not indicate physical appearance. So this verse tells us that there is something in us that resembles God. That is the Spirit. Man had a spirit in him that resembled God. But that spirit is now dead. When we accept Jesus as our savior, He brings our spirit back to life. We are born again.

But the above verse also has the word "likeness". This shows His qualities. Creativity, emotions, rationalizing ability, etc. There is a part of us with these features and that is the soul.

But I do not how the verse in revelation could denote 1/3 of man being dead. I would be happy if you could explain a bit.

Read EZ1:26-28 and you will find that the image (likeness of the appearance) of the person on the Throne is that of a man; and the LIKENESS of HIS Glory is LIGHT. This is the LORD GOD, and HE certainly has an Image and a Likeness, both of which refer to the physical outward appearance. do you not understand these simple facts? Tell me: in order to speak (literally), must one not have a mouth? Then, since every act of CREATION was preceeded by a Spoken Command (literally), except for HIS very first act, which was when HE created the HEAVEN (singular) and the EARTH (the essence of Creation, the substance thereof.), must not the LORD GOD have had mouth to speak with. What, thought you that Adam was the first to inhabit the planet earth, and only Lucifer was clothed in beautiful light (EZ28:12-19). Interpret it any way you desire, but i have heard that blurb before, so you learned it from another.

Since Adam died spiritually when he first sinned, and cause all born form that point on to be in the same state (GEN5:3. Note the usage of image and likeness), then we are all just body and soul at birth. This being only 2 of the 3 'parts' of Adam (body, soul and SPIRIT). By JOB34:14-15,we see that man is made of body, breath (soul), and SPIRIT.
n

 

[enlightened]

Hi tohelp,

We have the account of Adam's creation. The only thing there is the body and God's breath/sprit, nothing else. No offence but all you've presented is your opinion. I've presented Scripture showing Adam's creation and there is no mention "man's spirit". Ecclesiastes tells us what happens when a man dies.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
(Ecc 3:18-21 KJV)

If you'll notice the text in blue, it says, "they all have one breath." The word translated breath, is also translated spirit and is the same word used in Genesis regarding the breath of life breathed into Adam. The passage in Ecclesiastes says that man and beast have "one" breath. We know from Adam's creation that that one spirit is God's. Job said,

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

There one spirit in a man, that spirit is God's and if he takes is back all flesh would die. There's only one spirit in a man.

Also, if you'll do a computer search of the Scriptures you'll find that there is "nothing" in the Scriptures that teaches spiritual death.

So what part of us needs quickening, if our spirit is just our soul?

 

[tohelp]

Hi Butch5

You are saying man does not have a spirit. You are also saying that there is only one spirit and that is God's spirit. Please read these verses:

1Cor 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1Cor 16:18 For they have refreshed my spirit and yours: therefore acknowledge ye them that are such.

There are many verses like these that show that a man has a spirit and that is not God's spirit but man's. You need to study the difference between soul and spirit.

 

[tohelp]

But Adam did not die a physical death for eating, he died for lying to his wife and getting her to sin first.

When did Adam lie to Eve and how did he make her sin?

 

[tohelp]

Read EZ1:26-28 and you will find that the image (likeness of the appearance) of the person on the Throne is that of a man; and the LIKENESS of HIS Glory is LIGHT. This is the LORD GOD, and HE certainly has an Image and a Likeness, both of which refer to the physical outward appearance. do you not understand these simple facts? Tell me: in order to speak (literally), must one not have a mouth? Then, since every act of CREATION was preceeded by a Spoken Command (literally), except for HIS very first act, which was when HE created the HEAVEN (singular) and the EARTH (the essence of Creation, the substance thereof.), must not the LORD GOD have had mouth to speak with. What, thought you that Adam was the first to inhabit the planet earth, and only Lucifer was clothed in beautiful light (EZ28:12-19). Interpret it any way you desire, but i have heard that blurb before, so you learned it from another.

You are saying that God cannot speak without a human mouth!! You don't understand God's glory. God does not have a body. He can take the form of a body so that man can see him. The bodily form of God is Jesus.

Since Adam died spiritually when he first sinned, and cause all born form that point on to be in the same state (GEN5:3. Note the usage of image and likeness), then we are all just body and soul at birth. This being only 2 of the 3 'parts' of Adam (body, soul and SPIRIT). By JOB34:14-15,we see that man is made of body, breath (soul), and SPIRIT.
n

I did not say that. Man has 3 parts. The spirit is there but it is dead or inactive. When you accept Jesus as saviour it will brought to life or activated or re-born.

 

[enlightened]

Hi Butch5

You are saying man does not have a spirit. You are also saying that there is only one spirit and that is God's spirit. Please read these verses:




There are many verses like these that show that a man has a spirit and that is not God's spirit but man's. You need to study the difference between soul and spirit.

There is the Spirit of GOD and the spirit of satan.

 

[enlightened]

When did Adam lie to Eve and how did he make her sin?

When he told her the of the commandment for the very first time. This was his subtlety. After getting her to say that either touching or eating the fruit would lead to a sure death, he took her to the Garden and touched the fruit first, then told her she could it it also. He had just proved that part of what she said was not true, since touching the fruit had no effect on him as she said it would, which gave her reason to believe she could eat as well, once he told she could.

 

[Butch5]

If you say that the promised death was a physical death, then you are saying that GOD promised Adam he would die just for eating a piece of fruit (all others say this too). But the fruit from forbidden tree was pleasant to the eyes and good for food (GEN1:9), and it is also one of the TWO trees which comprise the TREE of LIFE (REV22:1-2); therefore, you are saying GOD punished Adam with death for eating good food. Is this Just? Would the Law of man justify you for doing the same to your children, or would you be imprisoned? No, the dearth was a spiritual death because GOD is just.

Following that logic it would also be unjust fir spiritual death wouldn't it?

However, why assume that it was punishment?

But Adam did not die a physical death for eating, he died for lying to his wife and getting her to sin first. is it not worse to cause one to sin, than for one to sin themselves? Adam was a liar, and he cause mankind to be spiritually dead;
hence the quickening we need from the SPIRIT.

I don't think you prove this.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch5

You are saying man does not have a spirit. You are also saying that there is only one spirit and that is God's spirit. Please read these verses:




There are many verses like these that show that a man has a spirit and that is not God's spirit but man's. You need to study the difference between soul and spirit.

No, look at the verse in context. You have clear teaching on how God created man. Any verse you interpret must line up with God's teaching.

 

[Butch5]

So what part of us needs quickening, if our spirit is just our soul?

Quickening can be literal or metaphorical. I believe Paul uses it in reference to the new creation, whereas is it literal in reference to the resurrection.

 

[enlightened]

One must do a lot of spinning and/or ignoring scripture to arrive at your conclusion, in my opinion.

In Genesis 3, YHWH Elohim(יְהֹוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֥ים) is clearly handing out long-term punishments to 3 different characters: Adam, his wife(she doesn't receive the name Eve until shortly after the punishments are declared), and the serpent.

So, you are saying that GOD condemned the serpent without a trial, unlike Adam and Eve who had a trial? Is this Just according to scripture?

 

[Vanguard]

I'd just like to point out that the entire Book of Revelation is prophetic, and since much of Christianity has a futuristic view based off those prophecies, nothing in there written about "Satan" has actually happened yet, and therefore can't be referenced to anything else in the Bible.

Just saying...

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Butch5

You are saying man does not have a spirit. You are also saying that there is only one spirit and that is God's spirit. Please read these verses:




There are many verses like these that show that a man has a spirit and that is not God's spirit but man's. You need to study the difference between soul and spirit.

How about these.

GOD speaking about Himself
Matthew 12:18
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Paul speaking about us as believers.

1 Thessalonians 5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[Deborah13]

There are multiple scriptures in the OT where in one verse it says a person has a soul and a spirit.

I could post the scriptures from the NT that says we are dead in our spirit until we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

Soul - personality, mind, behaviors (dominated by the habits and thoughts of the old nature before accepting the Savior) and will continue to be but hopefully will have the mind renewed by the Word, and allow the Holy Spirit to teach and guide. Can be affected by Satan if we allow it. Will not be completely sanctified until the resurrection.

Spirit - made alive in Christ, made righteous in Christ, one with the Holy Spirit "Walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh/soul.