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[_ Old Earth _] A Few Question For Evolutionists

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Possumburg

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Just a few questions I have always wondered about. If evolution is true (and I do NOT believe it is)...
First off Where did the first life come from? Even simple single-celled organisms are pretty complex to have just accidentally formed from whatever they are made of.
Where did sexual reproduction come from? How did the first animals with this ability know how to use it?
If a fish had a mutation that caused it to have lungs, how did it know to get out of the water and breath air? How did it miraculously come to have the muscles to expand and contract those lungs for that matter?
When did animals start eating food instead of living off of gases? What came first the mouth used to eat the food, or the stomach used to digest the food?
What came first the heart or the blood? Where did the blood vessels come from?

These are just a few of the many questions I have. Can ANY of them be answered? If not how can evolution be a "Fact"?
I believe God created us all the way we are. Just like the Bible tells us.
 
The questions that you ask are much too complicates to be answered in an online post. My suggestion is that you read on real evolution (not the simplistic view that the CSE and ID theorist portray in order to try to debunk).

Read some current documentation and let your mind lead where it takes you.

Here is a good debunk of the most popular "irreducible complex" example of the eye that ID tried to mislead many of its followers with. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye

Though not authoritative, the wiki has a good means of explaining it on a level that can be understood without a grad degree in biology.
 
Yes interesting questions, a bit misguided but interesting :), see my response below.
 
Possumburg said:
Just a few questions I have always wondered about. If evolution is true (and I do NOT believe it is)...
First off Where did the first life come from? Even simple single-celled organisms are pretty complex to have just accidentally formed from whatever they are made of.
What you're talking about is "abiogenesis" not "evolution". "Darwin's theory itself is only for the evolution of life from other life. It has been hypothesized that similar mechanisms worked in the development of the first life from chemicals. This is an area where the science is necessarily very speculative. Some scientists argue that the odds against this make it a practical impossibility, which others believe they are taking steps toward a viable explanation. I am not qualified to judge these arguments; I will simply point out that the disagreement among qualified scientists is a good indication that the answer is not clear-cut either way." (Harvey)
Where did sexual reproduction come from? How did the first animals with this ability know how to use it?
This questions is completely different and requires a lot of time, but if you have an understanding of "Genetic recombination", "Increasing the rate of evolution", and a bit of background knowledge in the evolution of sexual organs you will see that even bacteria exchanges genetic material with other bacteria. So "sex" as we know it now, between humans, is just a more complex process designed to minimize harmful mutations (which most are) and maximize the survival of the species.

If a fish had a mutation that caused it to have lungs, how did it know to get out of the water and breath air? How did it miraculously come to have the muscles to expand and contract those lungs for that matter?
Nobody said that one day a fish just walked out of the water, although for the sake of easier understanding that is how it's often depicted in common "evolution" presentations. The more likely scenario is that the process involved many more steps:
1. The fish had either food and/or shelter just near the edge of the water, the water often recedes and the fish is often left out in the dry without oxygen from the water, so they are forced to go with the water.
2. Over time some fish evolved enabling them to stay out of the water for longer periods of time (through natural selection and/or mutation).
3. Those fish reproduced passing on their genes.
4. As more time passes the organism specializes in out-of-water breathing and develops better breathing mechanism such as lungs.
5. Lungs themselves are type of muscles (thus no need to develop muscles to contract and expand the lungs).
6. Again all of the changes occur due to natural selection and/or mutation and get passed on to the offspring, thus carrying the change.
7. Eventually the fish starts pushing itself around on the rocky/sandy shallows with it's fins, and the fins get more specialized for that purpose.
8. Fish with longer fins get better chances of finding food and/or shelter, natural selection and or mutation speeds up this cycle.
9. Eventually these "fish" have changed enough to have fins which can push them onto the shore and lungs which allow them to breathe air (outside of the water).
10. The "fish" is out of the water and it doesn't need to "know" anything about its lungs and/or fins.
When did animals start eating food instead of living off of gases? What came first the mouth used to eat the food, or the stomach used to digest the food?
What came first the heart or the blood? Where did the blood vessels come from?
I'm starting to suspect that you have very little knowledge in the subjects of evolution, reproduction, biology, etc. I think it would be safe to say that gases were never the primary food source for animals, so your question is wrong by definition. As far as your question about the mouth/stomach, this is pretty simple to explain: some bacteria must obtain food by consuming other substances. These substances can include autotrophic or heterotrophic organisms, milk, meat, and decaying materials. The process of breaking down food to obtain energy is called respiration (see http://mic.sgmjournals.org/cgi/content/full/146/3/551). The combination of cells brought about specialization, some specialized in breaking down food, others specialized in delivering it to the cells which broke down food to feed to organism, etc.

The heart or the blood? Oh, my... I hope that by now you see a patter here, you lack some basic knowledge and further enlightenment on this would require that I write several more pages. I'm starting to see why people don't want to believe in science now: "It' too darn hard to learn that much stuff, it's just easier to say: "God made it!".
These are just a few of the many questions I have. Can ANY of them be answered? If not how can evolution be a "Fact"?
Your questions, again, are incorrectly stated:
Part 1: Can any of them be answered? Yes
Part 2: How can evolution be fact? It can for two reasons:
a. because we answered yes to Part 1 of your question.
b. because evolution is not abiogenesis and evolution does exist no matter how misinformed you are about it.

I believe God created us all the way we are. Just like the Bible tells us.
Again remember that there is no contradiction between abiogenesis and evolution, since both of these ideas describe different topics. If God has involvement with abiogenesis- made the first living cell and designed it to evolve, then evolution takes care of the rest. These ideas don't exclude God, but they do exclude the Biblical accounts of the creation of life. Unless God himself wrote the Bible (which he didn't), then I don't understand how you can have solid convictions in regards to the credibility of the Bible. To further support my claim the Bible as a whole makes no claim for divine authorship. Although many passages are quoted in God's name, the five books of Moses (Genesis through Deuteronomy) never assert that their entire content is divine. So the slippery slope wreaks havoc with arguments about biblical authorship. If one word, just one word, of the Bible is in fact of human origin, then how can one defend the divinity of any of it? If one word, why not two, or 10, or the whole book?

Again, all of this does not mean that God and/or abiogenesis/evolution do not exist, but that the Bible's accounts of creation are questionable.
 
Thanks for the answers! I just wondered what the answers would be. Thanks for being civil with your answers as well, I kinda expected to be attacked. But anyways just wondered what your views were, thanks again for the answers.
 
Possumburg said:
Thanks for the answers! I just wondered what the answers would be. Thanks for being civil with your answers as well, I kinda expected to be attacked. But anyways just wondered what your views were, thanks again for the answers.
It was my pleasure...
 
doGoN said:
Possumburg said:
Thanks for the answers! I just wondered what the answers would be. Thanks for being civil with your answers as well, I kinda expected to be attacked. But anyways just wondered what your views were, thanks again for the answers.
It was my pleasure...
I retract my previous statements in that case.
 
Possumburg said:
doGoN said:
Possumburg said:
Thanks for the answers! I just wondered what the answers would be. Thanks for being civil with your answers as well, I kinda expected to be attacked. But anyways just wondered what your views were, thanks again for the answers.
It was my pleasure...
I retract my previous statements in that case.
Which previous statements? Your questions? Were my answers helpful, did it clear up some confusion as to what the relationship between evolution, abiogenesis and God is?
 
Possumburg said:
First off Where did the first life come from?
Does it matter? Evolution is an explanation for the biological diversity of life, not life itself. That said, the scientific consensus is that life has a chemical origin (indeed, the famous Miller-Urey experiments showed how versatile the formation of biological molecules is).

Possumburg said:
Even simple single-celled organisms are pretty complex to have just accidentally formed from whatever they are made of.
Indeed. However, evolutionary theory posits that the first life was simple. As you point out, modern single celled organisms are anything but simple.
The ancestor(s) common to all modern life is believed to be something as simple as a self-replicating molecule.

Possumburg said:
Where did sexual reproduction come from? How did the first animals with this ability know how to use it?
Sexual reproduction came from hermaphroditism, as did the knowledge to use it.

Possumburg said:
If a fish had a mutation that caused it to have lungs, how did it know to get out of the water and breath air? How did it miraculously come to have the muscles to expand and contract those lungs for that matter?
You make it sound like it was a single chance event. Evolutionary theory holds that major changse to a species occurs over millions of years, and is the product of a series of small, accumulated mutations.

For example, fish evolved lungs via the evolution of the air-sac: shallow fish evolved a simple bag in their mouths to hold air in, and eventually developed the ability to utilise this air for respiration (note that fish already had the ability to respirate, they just took the oxygen out of the water first). Eventually, they were so dependant on gaseous exchange that they lost the ability to breathe under water, and by that time they were reptiles.

Possumburg said:
When did animals start eating food instead of living off of gases?
Living organisms have always been processing biological molecules of some form. Digestion came before gaseous exchange.

Possumburg said:
What came first the mouth used to eat the food, or the stomach used to digest the food?
Short answer: the mouth, gut, and anus evolved simultaneously.

Long answer: The first multicellular organisms were simply groups of single-celled organisms grouped together in a tube: as the tube moved, food went in one way, came out the other, and had its nutrients absorbed by the single-celled organisms as it went along. With the advent of a circulatory system, the front, middle, and end sections specialised into the mouth, gut, and anus, respectively.

Possumburg said:
What came first the heart or the blood?
The blood. It was initially ''pumped'' around the body by the motion of the organism itself, and eventually a specialised organ was evolved for that sole purpose: the heart.

Possumburg said:
Where did the blood vessels come from?
Y'know, I'm not sure. I imagine they formed as the tubes I mentioned above grew in complexity: double-walled tubes with fluid inbetween were perhaps the first blood vessels.

Possumburg said:
These are just a few of the many questions I have. Can ANY of them be answered?
Of course. These are just questions of the specifics of how major organs evolved. It is fun to answer them.

Possumburg said:
If not how can evolution be a "Fact"?
Because strictly speaking evolution is any change in the frequency of inheritable traits within a given population over time. Since this is readily observed (and is indeed a necessary phenomenon of population dynamics), evolution is a fact.

Possumburg said:
I believe God created us all the way we are. Just like the Bible tells us.
The English translation under a literalist worldview, perhaps. I know many Christians who see no conflict between scientific knowledge and Biblical notions.
 
Ah the ol' irreducibility complex arguments.

Those these were a tragedy for sound science, they were certainly a successful PR campaign.
 
Natural Selection is a fact. Have we ever observed a fish change into a reptile? It is all just a guess as to what happened "millions of years ago". I have all the respect in the world for observational science, but molecules to man evolution is not and cannot be observed.
 
I have all the respect in the world for observational science, but molecules to man evolution is not and cannot be observed.
"Molecules to man" is a straw man of what evolution actually says.

However, we can see the genetic evidence of our past evolution; it's not just guesswork but derived from hard evidence. Are you familiar with ERVs? They are evidence of common ancestry of humans and other contemporary apes with an astronomical certainty; something along the lines of 1:10^300

Have we ever observed a fish change into a reptile?
Does the ToE claim that we should be able to observe this? I think not. Actually, such an observed reunification of two branches of the phylogenic tree would disprove evolution.

Descendants of the intermediate stages between fish and amphibian however still do exist, e.g. the mudskipper:
mudskipper8su.jpg


What could convince you that the ToE is accurate?
 
Possumburg said:
Natural Selection is a fact.
Agreed.

Possumburg said:
Have we ever observed a fish change into a reptile?
No. But then again, we haven't been looking for 3.5 billion years.

Possumburg said:
It is all just a guess as to what happened "millions of years ago".
Correct. However, it's a guess that's backed by an overwhelming supply of evidence. Take a look at this extensive and exhaustive article on the evidence for the theory of Common Descent:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#pred4

Possumburg said:
I have all the respect in the world for observational science, but molecules to man evolution is not and cannot be observed.
Have you ever seen me? If not, how can you be sure I exist? Oh, that's right, evidence.
 
If the ToE does not say that a single celled organism evolved into all the species we see today exactly what does it say? Almost every argument I see on here is basically "You don't understand the Theory of Evolution" So go ahead and tell me what it is all about then?
 
Possumburg said:
Natural Selection is a fact.

As are the other mechanisms of Evolution.

Have we ever observed a fish change into a reptile?

No, but that would invalidate Evolution.

It is all just a guess as to what happened "millions of years ago".

A guess based on evidence and observations, if you're going to call it a guess.

I have all the respect in the world for observational science, but molecules to man evolution is not and cannot be observed.

Everything is comprised of molecules, btw...and it isn't theorized that humans just formed from nothing.
 
Possumburg said:
If the ToE does not say that a single celled organism evolved into all the species we see today exactly what does it say?

Theory of Evolution has three major proposals:

1) The common ancestry of all life.
2) The inheritance of traits through successive generations.
3) The mechanisms that cause traits to be selected for or against.

Almost every argument I see on here is basically "You don't understand the Theory of Evolution" So go ahead and tell me what it is all about then?

Well, you could try reading actual texts and inform yourself.
 
So doesn't common ancestry imply that we all came from a single organism? Which is that whole molecules to man thing again?
 
Possumburg said:
So doesn't common ancestry imply that we all came from a single organism? Which is that whole molecules to man thing again?

Common ancestry implies that all life shares a common ancestor, not a single organism, which is not molecules to man.
 
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