A poll on hell!

[DivineNames]

"There is something hideous and morally revolting in the idea of eternal torments as just retribution for the crimes and sins of a short moment of life... The idea of hell is particularly revolting when it is interpreted in a legalistic sense. Such an interpretation is common and vulgar and must be completely banished from religious ethics, philosophy and theology."

(Berdyaev)

 

[bibleberean]

Although I don't agree with every perspective Clarence Larkin has on hell I do believe that this is interesting and the scriptures given should be prayerfully studied. I will post this in two parts.

bibleberean

26 Heaven and Hell
Rightly Dividing the Word, by Clarence Larkin, 1920II.

HELL

To have a correct view of the other world, and of "Hell," it is necessary that we have a Scriptural understanding of--

THE UNDERWORLD.

The Hebrew word "SHEOL" is found 65 times in the Old Testament. It is translated 31 times, "HELL;" 31 times, "GRAVE;" 3 times, "THE PIT." The corresponding word in the Greek of the New Testament is "HADES." It is translated 10 times "HELL." "Sheol" and "Hades" mean "The Unseen State," or the place to which the "Soul" and "Spirit" of the dead go between the death and the resurrection of the body.

The "bodies" of the dead go into the "Grave," the word for which in the Hebrew is "GEBER," and in the Greek "MNEMEION." Neither "Sheol" nor "Hades" denote the "Hell" of final punishment of the wicked. That is called in the Hebrew of the Old Testament "TOPHET," and in the Greek of the New Testament "GEHENNA." Neither do they denote "THE BOTTOMLESS PIT" (Re 20:1-3), that is "ABUSSOS," nor the "prison house" of the "Fallen Angels" (2Pe 2:4; Jude 1:6), that is "TARTARUS." Their general meaning is-- "THE UNDERWORLD."

unforturnately I cannot show the chart. bibleberean

Fortunately I can show the chart!

Click on this as necessary!

http://members.citynet.net/morton/images/underworld.gif

That we may the better understand the relation of the places mentioned above to each other let us turn to the Chart, The Heavens. The word "Sheol" means a "hollow subterranean place," therefore "Hades" must mean the same. It has "gates," for Jesus said that the "Gates of Hell" (Hades), should not prevail against the Church. Mt 16:18. And Jesus after His return from "The Underworld," said-- "I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the `KEYS' (of the Gates) of hell (Hades) and of death (the Grave)." Re 1:18.

To get these "Keys" Jesus had to descend into the "lower parts of the earth." Eph 4:9. The Apostolic Creed says that Jesus descended into "Hell" (Hades). Therefore Hades, or "The Underworld," must be in the "heart of the earth," and is so pictured on the Chart.

Jesus said to the penitent Thief "TODAY shalt thou be with me in `Paradise.'" Lu 23:43. And as Jesus "that day" descended into "The Underworld" or "Hades," "Paradise" must have been in Christ's day in "Hades." But as it had been prophesied of Jesus that His "SOUL" (for His body was in Joseph's Tomb on the surface of the earth) should not remain in "Hell" (Hades), (Ps 16:10; Ac 2:27), therefore, before His body could see corruption, Jesus came back from "Hades."

But He did not come back alone. He seized the "Keys of Hades," unlocked the Gates of the Paradise Section (P) in which He was confined, and emptied it of its captives, and when He ascended on high He took them to the Paradise section of the "Third Heaven" (E), where they now are, and since then the Paradise Section of "The Underworld" has been empty. Eph 4:8-10.

In the account of the experience of the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus" in the other world (Lu 16:19-31), Jesus gives us a description of "The Underworld" as it was in His day.

According to the narrative, for it is not a parable, for parables do not give proper names as Abraham and Lazarus, both the "Rich Man" and Lazarus had died and their bodies had been buried, and what happened to them in the "Underworld," was descriptive of what happened to them in their "disembodied state."

In that state they were conscious, could see, hear, speak, and recognized each other. The difference was that Lazarus was in the "Paradise" section of the "Underworld" (P), typified by Abraham's "bosom," while the "Rich Man" was in the "Hell" section (H), not the final Hell, which is "Gehenna" (Lake of Fire), but in the section of the "Underworld" where the "souls" of the "Wicked" dead go, and remain until the resurrection of the "Wicked" dead. Between the "Paradise" (P) section, and the "Hell" (H) section of the "Underworld" there is an "Impassable Gulf" (K), (Lu 16:26), which reveals the fact that there is no possibility of the "Wicked" dead ever getting out of "Hell" into "Paradise."

 

[bibleberean]

Actually, I am going to have to post this in more than two parts and again I am sorry I cannot post the chart.

I can post the chart in a link!

http://members.citynet.net/morton/images/underworld.gif

Bibleberean

26 Heaven and Hell

Rightly Dividing the Word, by Clarence Larkin, 1920

On the Chart this "Impassable Gulf" is represented as the entrance to the "Bottomless Pit," or "ABYSS" (A), the "prison house" of the "Demons" (Re 9:1-21), and where Satan is to be bound for 1000 years.

Re 20:1-3,7-8. The Old Testament speaks of a place in "The Underworld" called in the Hebrew "ABADDON," and in the Greek "APOLEIA."

The word is translated in the Old Testament, "DESTRUCTION" (Pr 27:20; Job 26:6; 28:22; 31:12; Ps 88:11; Pr 15:11), and the same in the New Testament (Mt 7:13; Ro 9:22; Php 3:19; 2Pe 2:1; 3:16). In Pr 27:20 it says-- "Hell (Hades) and `Destruction' (Abaddon) are never full," thus connecting "Abaddon" with "Hades" (Sheol).

The inference is that "Abaddon" is a part of "The Underworld," and when we turn to Re 9:1-3,11, this inference becomes a certainty, for there we read that the "King" of the "Bottomless Pit" is called in the Hebrew tongue "ABADDON," but in the Greek tongue his name is "APOLLYON," that is, the King of the "Bottomless Pit" is named after the Hebrew and Greek words that are translated-- "DESTRUCTION." Now the word translated "Bottomless Pit" is "ABUSSOS," or "ABYSS."

Nine times do we read of this "Abyss" in the New Testament. Ro 10:7; Re 9:1-2,11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1-3. It is the place into which the Demons besought Christ not to send them. Lu 8:31. The "Bottomless Pit" or "Abyss" (A) then is a deeper compartment in "The Underworld" than "Paradise" (P), or "Hell" (H), and is the place where the "Demons" and baser spirits are temporarily confined until they are finally consigned to the "Lake of Fire" to spend eternity with their Master, Satan.

 

[bibleberean]

Part III

The chart is not available so when Clarence Larkin gives the location of certain places in the heart of the earth it is in relation to his chart not where these compartments are actually located.

Bibleberean

26 Heaven and Hell

Rightly Dividing the Word, by Clarence Larkin, 1920

To the left of the "Bottomless Pit" is "TARTARUS" (T), the "prison house" of the "Fallen Angels." 2Pe 2:4; Jude 1:6. These "Angels" are not Satan's angels, for they are at liberty. These "Fallen Angels" confined in "Tartarus" are the "Sons of God" who married the "Daughters of Men," and whose abnormal sin caused the Flood. See Chapter Two. They are to remain in their "prison house" until the "Great White Throne" Judgment, when they with the "Wicked Dead" are to be judged. Jude 1:6.

To the right of the "Bottomless Pit" is "GEHENNA" (G). This is the "Final Hell" or "LAKE OF FIRE" prepared for the Devil and his angels, into which the "Wicked," after the "Great White Throne" Judgment, will be cast to spend eternity. Mt 25:41; Re 20:12-15. It is called "TOPHET" in the Old Testament Hebrew (2Ki 23:10; Isa 30:33; Jer 7:31-32; 19:6,11-14), and in the New Testament Greek it is twelve times called "GEHENNA" (Mt 5:22,29-30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mr 9:43,45-47; Lu 12:5; Jas 3:6), and five times the "LAKE OF FIRE." It is as yet unoccupied. The first persons to get into it are the "Beast" and the "False Prophet" (Re 19:20), then "SATAN" and his Angels a 1000 years later (Re 20:10), and then after the "Great White Throne" Judgment the "Fallen Angels," now confined in Tartarus, and all the wicked whose names are not found written in the "Book of Life." Re 20:12-15.

On the south side of Jerusalem was the "Valley of Hinnom." At a high place in this valley called "Tophet," in the times of Isaiah and Jeremiah, parents made their children to pass through the fire to Moloch. 2Ki 23:10. This fire was kindled with brimstone. Isa 30:33. The locality afterward became a place for the burning of garbage from the City of Jerusalem. The fires were kept up perpetually, and the decaying matter as yet unconsumed bred worms. Jesus took this valley called "Ge-Hinnom," corrupted into "GEHENNA," and made it a type of "Hell" or the "Lake of Fire," where "their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Mr 9:43-48.

At the upper part of the Chart "Heaven" is shown. It includes the present "Paradise" (E), and the "New Jerusalem" (J). And also gives the relative location of the "Judgment Seat of Christ" (C), and the "Great White Throne" (W). The "Arrow" marked lines give the course and destiny of the "Righteous" and "Wicked" dead.

There are those who claim that "Sheol" (Hades) and the "Grave" are identical, and as there is no "knowledge" in the grave (Ec 9:5,10), therefore the soul "sleeps" until the resurrection of the body. But as it is only the "body" that goes into the "grave," it is only the "body" that "sleeps" or has no knowledge. The "Soul" and "Spirit" of a man goes to "Sheol," not to the "Grave." In Ge 37:35 we read-- "And all his (Jacob's) sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, `For I will go down into the GRAVE unto my son mourning.'" The Revised Version substitutes for "Grave" the word "SHEOL," and the American Revision has in the margin-- "Sheol, abode of the dead," and the American Baptist Publication Society edition, "The Underworld." So we see that Jacob did not mean that he would go "unto my son" in the "GRAVE," for he did not believe that his son Joseph was in the "grave," but that he had been eaten by a "wild beast" (Ge 37:33).

What Jacob meant was that he would "go down" into SHEOL, "The Underworld," and there he would meet Joseph, for it would be no comfort to go to a place (the grave) where he would know no one.

In Ge 25:8 we read-- "Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years, and was `GATHERED TO HIS PEOPLE.'" The expression "Gathered to his people" has no reference to the "Grave" or "Family Burial Place," for that was over in Chaldea, but it means that Abraham went to "The Underworld" where the souls of his ancestors had gone, and where he would be reunited to them.

The same statement is made of Isaac (Ge 35:29) with the additional statement, "and his sons BURIED HIM," thus showing that while his "soul" was "gathered to his people" in "The Underworld," his "body" was buried in the "grave."

Hey, here is the chart!

http://members.citynet.net/morton/images/underworld.gif

 

[Michael Burke]

Comments or suggestions on poll?

If you wish to avoid offending brothers and sisters in Christ, I would remove the word "blimp." I was taught in college that a poll should be worded as unbiasedly as possible, so as not to skew the results. To ignore this rule on a Christian Forum, and inject your own bias into the poll itself, makes all of us look bad to any outsiders who may visit, and that's another reason to remove the rather sarcastic suggestion that Universalists believe Jesus will "drop a line from a blimp" hovering over hell. Thank you.

 

[Eve777]

"Would you sell an eye for a million dollars? How about both for $20 million? No one in his right mind would. Your eyes are priceless to you, yet they are merely the windows of your soul. Your life (your soul) is of such value, Jesus said that you should despise the value of your eye compared to it. He said that if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you, for it is better to enter Heaven blind, than to go to Hell seeing. In other words, of all the things that you should prioritize in you life, it's not your health, your vocation, etc., it's your eternal salvation".


Does Hell (or the Lake of Fire) exist? Why would Jesus warn us if it did not exist? Think about it?

 

[Shana]

I believe that it exists. I don't believe that it is eternal.

If I am not mistaken, this topic is off limits in the forums for now. God bless.

 

[Eve777]

If I am not mistaken, this topic is off limits in the forums for now

I am not on the topic of your beliefs, Shanna...there are a lot of people that don't believe they have to worry about Hell, not just the Universalists.

Catholics believe in purgatory when they die, for example... as a stop over to Heaven.......some believe that sinning does not apply to them because they are under Grace.......there are a lot more misguided souls running around out there than you would think....you'd be surprised.how many "Christians" don't have the Holy Sprit and continue to live a life of sin,,,but if you ask them,,they will tell you they are going to Heaven.. a lot of Sunday Morning bench warmers....they believe in Hell for you, just not for them... :o

 

[Shana]

Eve, I was just making the statement that the topic , eternal hell or eternal torment, is off limits for now, as I understand. I wasn't directing my statement to you. I don't want to become involved in the discussion if it is not a topic that is to be discussed on the forums right now. Evidently, Universalists were invited to respond on this topic. By the way, I do believe in hell. Thanks and God bless.

 

[Shana]

Okay, I am understanding now that it is okay to post on the topic. I don't believe that torment is neverending for those who are lost. I do believe that Jesus warned of Gehenna. The thing is, what was Jesus talking about and was He talking about something that would be never ending? Many disagree on some of the words that have been translated as eternal , and everlasting in the scriptures and what they really mean.

Comments or suggestions on poll?

I agree with Mike, that the wording of the UR perspective needs to be changed in the poll for this thread. Thanks and God bless.

 

[Judy]

Where I don't agree with Universalism I find the wording in your poll to be inflammatory.. :-?