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A priest called Muhammad

W

warner

Guest
A priest called Muhammad
Posted 02:57am (Mla time) Mar 23, 2005
By DJ Yap
Inquirer News Service
©2005 http://www.inq7.net
http://news.inq7.net/nation/index.p...&story_id=31433

nat_9-1.jpg

HE USED to be known as Father Stan among his flock in parishes around Metro Manila. These days, he goes by the name Muhammad, after the great prophet of the faith he now calls his own.

Three years ago, Estanislao Soria, a priest in the Archdiocese of Manila, made that great leap of faith from Christianity to Islam. He became Muhammad Soria, much to the consternation of his devout Catholic family.

"My family was so hurt they wouldn't talk to me. Only the wife of my cousin understands. My elder brother respects me in theory, but he just tolerates me," said the 64-year-old academic and former theologian.

Anger was also the reaction of some of his former parishioners and friends, he said.

It started with a challenge

But Soria said he never backed down from his decision, knowing that even the Devil could not stop him from removing his priestly robes and embracing Islam.

It was a decision that was political and even intellectual, he said, but it was also a matter of faith.

His change of faith began when he challenged former Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao Gov. Nur Misuari's statement that everyone in Mindanao was a Moro.

He argued that many groups other than Muslims also lived in Mindanao, among them the Manobo and Sama tribes. At that time, he was teaching theology at the Ateneo de Manila University.

Soria, a native of Dipolog City, then studied the history of Mindanao in order to back his argument with historical and sociological proofs. While he did find evidence that not all who lived in Mindanao were Moros, he also discovered something else.

"I saw that the negative things associated with Muslims were not true, that they were actually being oppressed by the colonialists," he said.

"I thought Muslims were stupid and not well-informed, and I wanted to convert them to Christianity," Soria said.

But the opposite happened, he said.

A different gospel

He came across the Gospel of Barnabas, a work purporting to be a depiction of the life of Jesus by his disciple Barnabas, and was "convinced" it held the truth.

The Gospel of Barnabas says Jesus did not die from crucifixion but actually ascended to heaven alive. The man who was crucified was actually Judas Iscariot, the traitor. The gospel also foretells the coming of Muhammad.

Majority of academics, including Christians and some Muslims, dismiss the Barnabas gospel as a pious fraud, but some Muslim scholars believe it to be genuine.

Doubts about Trinity

Soria said he had doubts about his faith as early as the time he was training to become a priest. He questioned the Christian concept of the Trinity and, when he was 21, even had an argument about it with his late father.

When a seminarian has doubts about his faith, he leaves, said Soria. But he did not want to do that, so he continued his vocation and became a priest in 1988.

His deeply Catholic upbringing had somehow influenced him into the religious life, he said. But that did not stop him from raising questions about his religion.

He worked with two parishes in Taguig and another in Caloocan City. During this time, he became more and more outspoken about his doubts about the Catholic faith.

Soon, he was transferred to the University of the Philippines-Diliman parish as assistant to "running priest" Fr. Robert Reyes, a longtime friend.

Soria said his transfer to UP was meant to give a safe sanctuary for his views. But the liberal atmosphere at the university actually strengthened his resolve to make a momentous decision: To convert to Islam.

End to all doubts

Soria became a Muslim on Sept. 2, 2002, some 14 years after he was ordained a priest.

Unlike his doubt-riddled career as a diocesan priest, his conversion to Islam was a decision he was very sure of, he said.

He is now used to the Muslim way of life and has even gone on five pilgrimages to Mecca, through the Islamic Dawah Movement, of which he is a member.

His family and some of his friends could not understand his choice, but some have been supportive, he said. One of them is his friend "through-thick-and-thin" -- Father Reyes.

Sex is human

Last year, Soria married Hannah, 24, after a betrothal arranged by a Baclaran imam (teacher).

As a priest, he led a "really celibate" life, but since converting to Islam, he said, he has adopted the Koran's teaching that sex is human and not to be disdained.

An activist during his teaching days at Ateneo, Soria is currently working with various groups to defuse Muslim-Christian tensions, particularly after the bloody Camp Bagong Diwa prison siege last week.

Tension between 2 faiths

He said tension already existed between the two faiths in this predominantly Catholic nation, but it only worsened because of the government's handling of the attempted jailbreak.

Historically, terrorism has been committed by those in power, he said. This was true even during the Spanish rule in the Philippines, except that it was the colonizers who portrayed the “indios†(natives) as the terrorists.

"[Jose] Rizal, [Andres] Bonifacio were terrorists, according to the Spaniards. Today, they are national heroes," he said.

Soria said he was not ready to become an imam.

"I can be but I'd rather not. I don't feel I'm well-versed enough with the Muslim tradition," he said.

Father Stan, still

Even though he changed his name to Muhammad, Soria said his friends still call him Father Stan, "including the Muslims."

"My Arab Muslim friends told me I should not change my name, so people would know I'm a Catholic priest who converted to Islam," he said.

"Pinagmamalaki nila yon (They are proud of that)," he said.


©2005 http://www.inq7.net
__________________
 
It's nice that this man could follow his conscience and embrace belief as he understood it. Had this man left Islam for Christianity, his family would not only be angry- they'd be inclined to kill him.

That's one of the nice things about Christianity- one can apostate from it without pain of death following.
 
Gospel of Barnabas!!!

A different gospel

He came across the Gospel of Barnabas, a work purporting to be a depiction of the life of Jesus by his disciple Barnabas, and was "convinced" it held the truth.

The Gospel of Barnabas says Jesus did not die from crucifixion but actually ascended to heaven alive. The man who was crucified was actually Judas Iscariot, the traitor. The gospel also foretells the coming of Muhammad.

Majority of academics, including Christians and some Muslims, dismiss the Barnabas gospel as a pious fraud, but some Muslim scholars believe it to be genuine.

What do we know about the "Gospel of Barnabas"?

Ever so often, Muslims mention the 'Gospel of Barnabas'. What are the reasons that nearly everybody, who has studied it (including many Islamic scholars), believe that the is a (Muslim?) forgery from the Middle ages? The below references should give you enough material to ponder if you don't believe it.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Muslim scholar Cyril Glassé states:


As regards the "Gospel of Barnabas" itself, there is no question that it is a medieval forgery. A complete Italian manuscript exists which appears to be a translation from a Spanish original (which exists in part), written to curry favor with Muslims of the time. It contains anachronisms which can date only from the Middle Ages and not before, and shows a garbled comprehension of Islamic doctrines, calling the Prophet "the Messiah", which Islam does not claim for him. Besides its farcical notion of sacred history, stylistically it is a mediocre parody of the Gospels, as the writings of Baha'Allah are of the Koran.
The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, Harper & Row, 1989, p. 64

Read more.... -CLICK HERE-

:o
 
The choice of the present four Gospels (including the writings of St. Paul who is credited with single-handedly writing the majority of the books of the New Testament) was imposed in the conference of Nicea 325 C.E. under the auspices of the Pagan Emperor Constantine for political reasons. Literally hundreds of gospels and religious writings were considered "Apocrypha" (which actually means "hidden from the people") and destroyed. Some of these were written by disciples of Jesus (pbuh), and not disciples of disciples who had never met Jesus (pbuh), such as Paul. If they were not more authentic than the current selection then they were at least of equal authenticity. Some of these are still available, such as the "Gospel of Barnabas" which agrees with the Qur'an and even mention Muhammad (pbuh) by name. Modern discoveries such as the discovery of the dead sea scrolls (Qumran scrolls) have also confirmed the claims of the Qur’an (such as their claim that no nail shall touch the Messiah). The most ancient copies of the Greek Gospels available today date fully three to four centuries after the departure of Jesus(pbuh). The Dead sea scrolls, however, coincide historically with the time of John the Baptist. They were quickly dated from the 2nd century BC through the 1st century C.E. by the script in which they were written and by archaeological investigations of the settlement near the Qumran caves. They were discovered alongside the most ancient copy of the Old Testament available today.

In an effort to defend the teachings of the current Greek gospels, Mr. F.F. Bruce has the following to say in his book "The New Testament documents. Are they reliable?":

"It is worth mentioning here that striking affinities of thought and language have been recognized between the Gospel and the Qumran texts. These affinities must not be exaggerated; the Qumran literature comes no where near presenting us with such a figure as the Jesus of this Gospel (John)"

Christian scholar of history readily confirm that after the famous council of Nicea (325 C.E.), the church of St. Paul (The Trinitarian Church) selected out of the over three hundred Gospels in their possession the four that most closely conformed to their doctrines. All others, including the Gospel of Barnabas, were ordered completely destroyed. They also ruled that all Gospels written in Hebrew were to be destroyed. This practice continued until at least the year 1616 C.E.

Well then, how did the Gospel of Barnabas reach us? It is well known and recorded that the Gospel of Barnabas was accepted as Canonical in the Churches of Alexandria till 325 C.E. Pope Damasus (304-384 C.E.) issued a decree that the Gospel of Barnabas should not be read. This decree was supported by Gelasus, Bishop of Caesaria who died in 395 C.E. Pope Demasus, however, did secure a personal copy of the Gospel of Barnabas for himself in 383 C.E. and placed it in his private library. Many decrees make mention of the Gospel of Barnabas, such as the decree of the Western churches in 382AD, Pope Innocent in 465C.E., the Glasian Decree of 496C.E., Pope Hormisdas, and it is mentioned in the Stichometry of Niceophorus. There are many others who made note of this Gospel throughout history or obtained their own copies.

In 478AD, the fourth year of Emperor Zeno, the remains of Barnabas were discovered and there was found on his breast a copy of the Gospel of Barnabas written by his own hand. (Acia Sanctorum Borland Junii Tom II, pages 422 and 450. Antwerp 1698) The famous Vulgate Bible appears to have been based upon this Gospel.

Among the early Christians was a man named Irenaeus (130-200 AD). According to the book "Jesus, Prophet of Islam," by Muhammad Ata’ Ur Rahim, Irenaeus quoted extensively in his writings from the Gospel of Barnabas. In the sixteenth century C.E. a close friend of Pope Sextus (1589-1590) called Fra Marino, became extremely interested in the writings of Irenaeus. One day he was invited to visit the Pope and lunch with him. After eating with him, the Pope became drowsy and fell asleep. Father Marino took to browsing through the various books and manuscripts in the private library of Pope Sextus and happened upon an Italian translation of the Gospel of Barnabas. Father Marino concealed it in his sleeve and left the Vatican with it. This Gospel passed through many hands until it reached the hands of "a person of great name and authority" in Amsterdam "who during his lifetime, was often heard to put a high value on this piece." After his death, it came into the possession of J.E. Cramer, Councilor of the King of Prussia. In 1713, Cramer presented this Gospel to the famous connoisseur of books, Prince Eugene of Savoy. In 1738, the library of the Prince, including this Gospel was incorporated into the Hofbibliothek in Vienna where it now rests.

Mr. Sale in his preface "To the Reader" of his translation of the meanings of the verses of the noble Qur’an says:

"… the discoverer of the original M.S., who was a Christian monk called Fra Marino, tells us that having accidentally met with a writing of Irenaeus (among others), wherein Irenaeus spoke against Paul, alleging, for his authority, the Gospel of St. Barnabas, he became exceedingly desirous of finding an existing copy of this Gospel, and that God of His mercy, having made Fra Marino an intimate friend of Pope Sixtus V, (pope 1585-1590), one day, as they were together in the Pope’s library, his holiness fell asleep, and the monk, to occupy himself, reaching down for a book to read, the very first he laid his hand on proved to be the very Gospel history that he was seeking. Overjoyed at the discovery, he scrupled not to hide his prize discovery in his sleeve; and, on the Pope’s awakening, took to leave of him carrying with him that celestial treasure, by reading of which he became a convert to Muhammedanism [sic]"

The Dead Sea Scrolls, the Gospel of Barnabas, and the New Testament, by M. A. Yusseff, p. 119) (also see Jesus a Prophet of Islam, by Muhammad `Ata ur-Rahim, pp. 39-44, 76-77)

Only the popularity of this copy of the Gospel of Barnabas saved it from the fate of most other copies. Most copies of the Gospel of Barnabas had a tendency of mysteriously disappearing into oblivion. This was the case with a Spanish copy which mysteriously disappeared from the College Library in England around the same time period. The Gospel of Barnabas was translated into English by Mr. and Mrs. Ragg and published in the Clarindon Press in Oxford in 1907. Dispite the fact that the authors disallowed the authenticity of this Gospel, still, mysteriously all copies disappeared from the market. Only two copies are known to have escaped this mysterious fate. One copy is housed in the Library of Congress in Washington, DC. The other is located in the British museum. A new printing has been made off of these copies and this printing is available today.

http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/libr ... y/ch7.html

One must ask, What was in the Gospel of Barnabas in the 4th century, that it was told not to be read?

Also if you want to read on the authenticty of the Gospel of Barnabas, read "The Dead Sea Scrolls, The Gospel of Barnabas, and The New Testament", by M. A. Yussuff.
 
Orthodox Christian said:
It's nice that this man could follow his conscience and embrace belief as he understood it. Had this man left Islam for Christianity, his family would not only be angry- they'd be inclined to kill him.

That's one of the nice things about Christianity- one can apostate from it without pain of death following.
hi

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God


Is christianity just Lip service then , just say I am a christian and you're ok.LIP SERVICE.
 
warner said:
Orthodox Christian said:
It's nice that this man could follow his conscience and embrace belief as he understood it. Had this man left Islam for Christianity, his family would not only be angry- they'd be inclined to kill him.

That's one of the nice things about Christianity- one can apostate from it without pain of death following.
hi

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God


Is christianity just Lip service then , just say I am a christian and you're ok.LIP SERVICE.
You wouldn't know Christianity if it hit you in your head.
Shalom and love in the name of YESHUA the ONE AND ONLY SHALOM
 
warner said:
Orthodox Christian said:
It's nice that this man could follow his conscience and embrace belief as he understood it. Had this man left Islam for Christianity, his family would not only be angry- they'd be inclined to kill him.

That's one of the nice things about Christianity- one can apostate from it without pain of death following.
hi

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God


Is christianity just Lip service then , just say I am a christian and you're ok.LIP SERVICE.

No Warner, we have had many Christians who have been killed by your Muslim brothers simply because they were 'infidels.' They died willingly, rather than turn their back on the Son of God. That's not lip service.

Also, we do not stone adultresses nor disobedient children. Jesus, the Savior, taught us that the mercy of God brings the lost sheep back into the fold. Should a person decide that they are to follow another faith, they are allowed to do so, and God will be their judge.

As I said before, a man leaving Islam to follow the true Son of God will do at peril for his life. What a lovely, lovely faith of blood and oppression.
 
Orthodox Christian said:
warner said:
[quote="Orthodox Christian":c84bd]It's nice that this man could follow his conscience and embrace belief as he understood it. Had this man left Islam for Christianity, his family would not only be angry- they'd be inclined to kill him.

That's one of the nice things about Christianity- one can apostate from it without pain of death following.
hi

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God


Is christianity just Lip service then , just say I am a christian and you're ok.LIP SERVICE.

No Warner, we have had many Christians who have been killed by your Muslim brothers simply because they were 'infidels.' They died willingly, rather than turn their back on the Son of God. That's not lip service.

Also, we do not stone adultresses nor disobedient children. Jesus, the Savior, taught us that the mercy of God brings the lost sheep back into the fold. Should a person decide that they are to follow another faith, they are allowed to do so, and God will be their judge.

As I said before, a man leaving Islam to follow the true Son of God will do at peril for his life. What a lovely, lovely faith of blood and oppression.[/quote:c84bd]
I think we should remove all those verses from the OT because the christians cringe so much when they are mentioned. Better still remove the whole book, just leave those few verse from the NT that say eat what yuo want, and Jesus is son of GOD. It seems the other verses there are just there for lip service as today the christian will honour the adulteress rather than punish her as the bible says, since they are children of adultery themselves, is it their fault ? well, Jesus called their forefathers adulterous generation, cvhildren of vipers, so i suppose it is ok then, they can carry on committing adultery and not doing anything against it. How many Children are born out of adultery every day in the west.
This is serious stuff here what jesus called them if you just translate the first part Into french itself it is heavy stuff, "fils De p....."
Man can you imgine GOD calling a nation such a thing.
Peace
:angel:
 
WARNER said:
I think we should remove all those verses from the OT because the christians cringe so much when they are mentioned. Better still remove the whole book, just leave those few verse from the NT that say eat what yuo want, and Jesus is son of GOD.
Far from cringing, we thank God that He sent His Son to earth to introduce mercy and peace. We no longer stone disobedient children, women are not property, marriage is to be sacred, and between one man and one woman- those are the ideals. People have the freedom to choose, and the freedom to chose because of love. All the hospitals, social services, universities came from Christianity. Even to this day, a Tsunami occurs in a Muslim land, and Muslims from oil rich countries contribute nearly nothing.

Yes, we can eat what we want, and Jesus is God's Son. Thanks for acknowledging that the NT clearly says both.

Warner said:
It seems the other verses there are just there for lip service as today the christian will honour the adulteress rather than punish her as the bible says, since they are children of adultery themselves, is it their fault ?
Thank you- it is truly refreshing to see a Muslim act like a Muslim. If it was up to you, the adultress would be killed. So also the Infidel.

Please take note, atheists and liberals, Warner is a true Muslim. This is who and what you support.

Warner said:
well, Jesus called their forefathers adulterous generation, cvhildren of vipers, so i suppose it is ok then, they can carry on committing adultery and not doing anything against it. How many Children are born out of adultery every day in the west.
Yes there are. People watch dirty movies too, and go about in skimpy clothes. People are free to chose whether to obey God or not.
Someday, in the day of Judgement, you and all of the people you forcibly compel to obey God grudgingly will meet Him face to face and not know Him at all, and will need to give explanation as to why you ignored this from the 'Old Testament:'
I desire mercy, and not sacrifice, says the Lord
Mercy- somthing you Muslims acknowledge that is a trait of God, yet it is not a trait of yours. Who then is your Father?
Warner said:
This is serious I love Jesus a lot here what jesus called them if you just translate the first part Into french itself it is heavy stuff, "fils De p....."
Man can you imgine GOD calling a nation such a thing.
Not following you on this part. Again, thanks for giving the genuine Muslim answer.
 
Orthodox Christian said:
WARNER said:
I think we should remove all those verses from the OT because the christians cringe so much when they are mentioned. Better still remove the whole book, just leave those few verse from the NT that say eat what yuo want, and Jesus is son of GOD.
Far from cringing, we thank God that He sent His Son to earth to introduce mercy and peace. We no longer stone disobedient children, women are not property, marriage is to be sacred, and between one man and one woman- those are the ideals. People have the freedom to choose, and the freedom to chose because of love. All the hospitals, social services, universities came from Christianity. Even to this day, a Tsunami occurs in a Muslim land, and Muslims from oil rich countries contribute nearly nothing.

Yes, we can eat what we want, and Jesus is God's Son. Thanks for acknowledging that the NT clearly says both.

Warner said:
It seems the other verses there are just there for lip service as today the christian will honour the adulteress rather than punish her as the bible says, since they are children of adultery themselves, is it their fault ?
Thank you- it is truly refreshing to see a Muslim act like a Muslim. If it was up to you, the adultress would be killed. So also the Infidel.

Please take note, atheists and liberals, Warner is a true Muslim. This is who and what you support.

Warner said:
well, Jesus called their forefathers adulterous generation, cvhildren of vipers, so i suppose it is ok then, they can carry on committing adultery and not doing anything against it. How many Children are born out of adultery every day in the west.
Yes there are. People watch dirty movies too, and go about in skimpy clothes. People are free to chose whether to obey God or not.
Someday, in the day of Judgement, you and all of the people you forcibly compel to obey God grudgingly will meet Him face to face and not know Him at all, and will need to give explanation as to why you ignored this from the 'Old Testament:'
I desire mercy, and not sacrifice, says the Lord
Mercy- somthing you Muslims acknowledge that is a trait of God, yet it is not a trait of yours. Who then is your Father?
Warner said:
This is serious I love Jesus a lot here what jesus called them if you just translate the first part Into french itself it is heavy stuff, "fils De p....."
Man can you imgine GOD calling a nation such a thing.
Not following you on this part. Again, thanks for giving the genuine Muslim answer.
Please take note, atheists and liberals, Warner is a true Muslim.

Far from cringing, we thank God that He sent His Son to earth to introduce mercy and peace. We no longer stone disobedient children, women are not property, marriage is to be sacred, and between one man and one woman- those are the ideals. People have the freedom to choose, and the freedom to chose because of love..[/quote]
So what happened to the commandment "thou shall committ adultery", has that become lip service too so you have to call over liberals and Atheists for support.A christian cannot handle it himslef he needs athesists to back him up and liberals.

Orthodox Christian said:
Even to this day, a Tsunami occurs in a Muslim land, and Muslims from oil rich countries contribute nearly nothing...
All muslims and islam are not to be held responsible for what despot govt and Puppet leaders do.

Orthodox Christian said:
All the hospitals, social services, universities came from Christianity. ...
This is a big lie. Go back in history and see who discovered a most of the medicine we are using to day.Surprised why many of the words originated from the Arabic, ever wonder where your algebra originated from, and was Ibn Sinah Christian too.
Please read and educate yourself. It is a shame to make statement with no evidences :
http://www.muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm
peace
:angel:
 
OC said:
Even to this day, a Tsunami occurs in a Muslim land, and Muslims from oil rich countries contribute nearly nothing...
Muhsen said:
All muslims and islam are not to be held responsible for what despot govt and Puppet leaders do.

And what did individual, rich Muslims contribute? We saw an outpouring from individuals... why no massive Muslim response?

Jesus was right. "By their fruits you will know them."

:-?
 
Warner said:
So what happened to the commandment "thou shall committ adultery", has that become lip service too so you have to call over liberals and Atheists for support.A christian cannot handle it himslef he needs athesists to back him up and liberals.
Warner, we who are Christian in belief and deed do not commit adultery. We not only avoid sexual relations with those other than our wives, but we also avoid committing adultery inwardly by looking at a woman with lust. We also look at our wives as Jesus does at the Church- desiring her, but not to use or dominate, but rather to join with.

We do not thereby pay "lip service" to the commandments of God- we follow them. We just do not make it a practice of forcing others to do so. That is the essential distinctive between the Islam you seem to espouse and the Christiainty of the New Testament- Jesus told us to go ahead and stone the adultress, if we are without sin. Of course, we are not- thus, we find another way to deal with her, as Jesus did- we counsel her to cease sinning. You would have us establish order by making her an example. Human beings are to us more precious than examples.

At least, that is NT Christianity. To be sure, we have certain Christians who would enforce their morality through legislation, and who would justify the death penalty. They cannot use the NT to justify either. Thus, you will see some of us emphasize the NT over the OT- for to us, the entire OT is to be understood in the light of Jesus' message of love, mercy, tolerance, and, I might hastily add, HOLINESS for the believer.

As for who we need to "back us up:" Only the Lord, who strengthens us. Only the Lord, who guides us. Only the Lord, who cautions us to NOT give ourselves over to the judgement of our brother. To the degree that we have departed from that message, the Christian Church has failed and even occasionally strayed into murder.

But we cling to the Message and the Messenger.
 
Gary_Bee said:
OC said:
Even to this day, a Tsunami occurs in a Muslim land, and Muslims from oil rich countries contribute nearly nothing...
Muhsen said:
All muslims and islam are not to be held responsible for what despot govt and Puppet leaders do.

And what did individual, rich Muslims contribute? We saw an outpouring from individuals... why no massive Muslim response?

Jesus was right. "By their fruits you will know them."

:-?
You keep claiming you have studied Islam but the more you post you get more contradicitory.if really and sincerelt you sudied Islam from the proper sources for 5 years you would have known that muslims do not give alms for every one to see.Even these despot Govt many are bad adn evil but they keep this at least as principle.They don't give charity and the Tv cameras there showing what they are giving to the>there are loads of muslim charities operating around the world giving millions but thwey don't show off.Not like the west when they attack a country they blow up that countries main warehouse of food.Then youy see Tv cameras coming to show they are giving these people.This is noit charity.And the west send charity through missionsiaries not to help but convert people to christianity.
I advise you to go and learn islam form a proper muslim source.saves embarassment
peace :angel:
 
IF the rich Muslims HAD contributed to Tsunami victims, it would have been obvious to anyone working on the ground. It did not happen. The conclusion is therefore that Muslim countries and Muslims (in their personal capacity) did NOT respond to Tsunami victims.

As Jesus said, "..you will know them by their fruits."
 
Gary_Bee said:
OC said:
Even to this day, a Tsunami occurs in a Muslim land, and Muslims from oil rich countries contribute nearly nothing...
Muhsen said:
All muslims and islam are not to be held responsible for what despot govt and Puppet leaders do.

And what did individual, rich Muslims contribute? We saw an outpouring from individuals... why no massive Muslim response?

Jesus was right. "By their fruits you will know them."

:-?
I think I would respect you more if you were truthful, You would have been more honest to say that you have studied for five years how to attack Islam, how to pick faults out of Islam and slander islam.Had you really studied Islam you would have answers your self for every claim you makse against Islam and the prophet Mohammed.The reason you don't see them is because you have been conditioned and programmed not to. It is dishonest on your part too to claim that you have read the whole of Bukhari.
Had you read the whole of Bukhari you would have had the answer for the above question and many other claims you have made against Islam.So next time pls be a Good Christian and tell the truth.The true message of the prophet jesus was not to slander others and tell lies and conceal the truth but put out lies.
peace
:angel:
 
Orthodox Christian said:
Warner said:
So what happened to the commandment "thou shall committ adultery", has that become lip service too so you have to call over liberals and Atheists for support.A christian cannot handle it himslef he needs athesists to back him up and liberals.
Warner, we who are Christian in belief and deed do not commit adultery. We not only avoid sexual relations with those other than our wives, but we also avoid committing adultery inwardly by looking at a woman with lust. We also look at our wives as Jesus does at the Church- desiring her, but not to use or dominate, but rather to join with.

We do not thereby pay "lip service" to the commandments of God- we follow them. We just do not make it a practice of forcing others to do so. That is the essential distinctive between the Islam you seem to espouse and the Christiainty of the New Testament- Jesus told us to go ahead and stone the adultress, if we are without sin. Of course, we are not- thus, we find another way to deal with her, as Jesus did- we counsel her to cease sinning. You would have us establish order by making her an example. Human beings are to us more precious than examples.

At least, that is NT Christianity. To be sure, we have certain Christians who would enforce their morality through legislation, and who would justify the death penalty. They cannot use the NT to justify either. Thus, you will see some of us emphasize the NT over the OT- for to us, the entire OT is to be understood in the light of Jesus' message of love, mercy, tolerance, and, I might hastily add, HOLINESS for the believer.

As for who we need to "back us up:" Only the Lord, who strengthens us. Only the Lord, who guides us. Only the Lord, who cautions us to NOT give ourselves over to the judgement of our brother. To the degree that we have departed from that message, the Christian Church has failed and even occasionally strayed into murder.

But we cling to the Message and the Messenger.
Orthodox Christian said:
Warner, we who are Christian in belief and deed do not commit adultery. We not only avoid sexual relations with those other than our wives, but we also avoid committing adultery inwardly by looking at a woman with lust. We also look at our wives as Jesus does at the Church- desiring her, but not to use or dominate, but rather to join with.

We do not thereby pay "lip service" to the commandments of God- we follow them. We just do not make it a practice of forcing others to do so. That is the essential distinctive between the Islam you seem to espouse and the Christiainty of the New Testament- Jesus told us to go ahead and stone the adultress, if we are without sin. Of course, we are not- thus, we find another way to deal with her, as Jesus did- we counsel her to cease sinning. You would have us establish order by making her an example. Human beings are to us more precious than examples..
Oh so is that a new name for it now from the Christian point of view,"counselling", was that what Anti muslim televanvangelist Jimmy swaggart was doing when he got caught with prostitutes? Counselling.
Very nice way of deception, call it another name, these priest who have mistresses and have love children with them is that counselling too.And what about those priests who abuse little boys.
No don't tell me I know this is counselling too, the Christian way.

:angel:
 
warner said:
It is dishonest on your part too to claim that you have read the whole of Bukhari.

I have. You obviously have not or else you would have been very embarrassed by the behavior of the prophet of Islam.

I am using the nine-volume translation of the Hadith made by Dr Muhammad Mushsin Khan entitled "The Translation of the Meaning of Sahih Al-Bukhari". It is recommended and approved by all Muslim authorities, including the spiritual heads of Mecca and Medina.

Enjoy!!
http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/hadith/

P.S. Unlike Islam, we are NOT allowed to lie for our faith.

:o
 
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