A question about God's character
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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If A is true, then there is something - a law or ruler higher than God is. Then our God isn't the highest.
It depends upon who is doing the judging.
Amos 3:6 . . . If there is calamity in a city, will not the LORD have done it?
This is a rhetorical question with the obvious answer of yes.
God has a purpose in it, so it would be good in His over all plan.
The people experiencing it (flood, earthquake) would not think of it as good.
"B" is true and "A" is false.
Reason: God is eternal and therefore un-caused. He is the First Cause and never an effect. God determines what is good. What is good does not rule over God's essence.
Col. 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
John 1:3 All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being
... well, there is such a things as a greater good ....so,
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Well, He does ordain things He says are wrong. Like the bearing false witness against Jesus and killing Him.
Act 4:27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.U
The Bible also tells that God cannot lie and hates lying lips, but:
2 Chronicles 18:20 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, 'I will persuade him.' The LORD said to him, 'In what way?' 21 So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the LORD said, 'You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.'
I was thinking yesterday about how a lot of professing Christians say the God of Calvinism is like a cruel monster.
But Atheists say the same thing about God they just read about in the Bible.
Christopher Hitchens wrote a book called "God is not great : how religion poisons everything." Maybe some of you haven't even read about what these "new Atheists" are saying, but they are not talking about the Calvinist God, just the plain God of the Bible.
I actually found the book in a PDF format.
316 pages. Ya might want to just browse through parts of it.
I have 3 quotes from one of the other new Atheists - Sam Harris
"Everyone who has eyes to see can see that if the God of Abraham exists, He is an utter psychopath--and the God of Nature too. If you can't see these things just by looking, you have simply closed your eyes to the realities of our world." ~ Sam Harris
(Notice in the above quote, he says God of Abraham, not God of Calvin)
"When someone like myself points out the rather obvious and compelling evidence that God is cruel and unjust, because he visits suffering on innocent people of a scope and scale that would embarrass the most ambitious psychopath, we're told that? God is mysterious." ~ Sam Harris
"We read the Golden Rule and judge it to be a brilliant distillation of many of our ethical impulses. And then we come across another of God’s teachings on morality: if a man discovers on his wedding night that his bride is not a virgin, he must stone her to death on her father’s doorstep (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)." ~ Sam Harris
But Atheists say the same thing about God they just read about in the Bible.
Christopher Hitchens wrote a book called "God is not great : how religion poisons everything." Maybe some of you haven't even read about what these "new Atheists" are saying, but they are not talking about the Calvinist God, just the plain God of the Bible.
I actually found the book in a PDF format.
316 pages. Ya might want to just browse through parts of it.
I have 3 quotes from one of the other new Atheists - Sam Harris
"Everyone who has eyes to see can see that if the God of Abraham exists, He is an utter psychopath--and the God of Nature too. If you can't see these things just by looking, you have simply closed your eyes to the realities of our world." ~ Sam Harris
(Notice in the above quote, he says God of Abraham, not God of Calvin)
"When someone like myself points out the rather obvious and compelling evidence that God is cruel and unjust, because he visits suffering on innocent people of a scope and scale that would embarrass the most ambitious psychopath, we're told that? God is mysterious." ~ Sam Harris
"We read the Golden Rule and judge it to be a brilliant distillation of many of our ethical impulses. And then we come across another of God’s teachings on morality: if a man discovers on his wedding night that his bride is not a virgin, he must stone her to death on her father’s doorstep (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)." ~ Sam Harris
I am familair with this sort of garbage.
These people are childeren of satan, so we should not expect anything different.
Whatever
Bear with me. We are called to be blameless for a reason. So that there is nothing for them to point at and feel justified in their persecution of us and their false ideas of us. It forces them to look at themselves, which is the last thing people of the world want to do, since they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
Now, imagine a woman who supports abortion. She supports killing an innocent child for no other reason than that child is an inconvenience. But at the same time, she will gnash her teeth at God has having sovereignty over her when He justly proclaims her guilty. The child is innocent, yet she is guilty. A just God proclaims her guilt, and she becomes angry. But that same woman destroys innocent life (sovereign over it), and claims it's her right to do so. Seeing herself in God's actions, although He is acting righteously, she lashes out at Him, when in reality, it is herself that she is lashing out at. Because she is doing the same thing, but her act is unrighteous. The very thing that she claims God is. In short, she subconsciously sees herself in God's actions, and that's offensive to her. The truth, it's offensive. I believe that most of those kinds of quotes are similarly motivated. God, in His righteousness, is offensive to them because He is the truth. He reveals the truth about themselves to them. Though they don't recognize that that is happening. Evil always attacks the innocent. And always protects the guilty. Look at liberalism in politics. Same thing. Does that make sense? I'll admit, maybe it's just tired ramblings.
For everyone.
Anyways. God's standards.... It brings to mind Abraham potentially sacrificing Isaac. If Abraham did this on his own, it's sin, but when God commands it, it's not sin, but obedience. In light of the questions at hand....
Bear with me. We are called to be blameless for a reason. So that there is nothing for them to point at and feel justified in their persecution of us and their false ideas of us. It forces them to look at themselves, which is the last thing people of the world want to do, since they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
Now, imagine a woman who supports abortion. She supports killing an innocent child for no other reason than that child is an inconvenience. But at the same time, she will gnash her teeth at God has having sovereignty over her when He justly proclaims her guilty. The child is innocent, yet she is guilty. A just God proclaims her guilt, and she becomes angry. But that same woman destroys innocent life (sovereign over it), and claims it's her right to do so. Seeing herself in God's actions, although He is acting righteously, she lashes out at Him, when in reality, it is herself that she is lashing out at. Because she is doing the same thing, but her act is unrighteous. The very thing that she claims God is. In short, she subconsciously sees herself in God's actions, and that's offensive to her. The truth, it's offensive. I believe that most of those kinds of quotes are similarly motivated. God, in His righteousness, is offensive to them because He is the truth. He reveals the truth about themselves to them. Though they don't recognize that that is happening. Evil always attacks the innocent. And always protects the guilty. Look at liberalism in politics. Same thing. Does that make sense? I'll admit, maybe it's just tired ramblings.
For everyone.
Anyways. God's standards.... It brings to mind Abraham potentially sacrificing Isaac. If Abraham did this on his own, it's sin, but when God commands it, it's not sin, but obedience. In light of the questions at hand....
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This
Basically God is by nature in his character " good " .
He is the standard by which we measure good or evil.
God does not do things because they are good, neither are things good just because God is doing them.
God is good and does not do things which are evil.
this is the 'Euthyphro dilemma' .
Basically God is by nature in his character " good " .
He is the standard by which we measure good or evil.
God does not do things because they are good, neither are things good just because God is doing them.
God is good and does not do things which are evil.
Let's be clear what you've called the God of Calvin's is nothing more than the God of the bible.
Most people on this forum would probably disagree with you. They will say "the god of Calvin is a made up idol."
If there understanding of the bible is that poor so be it.
If they choose to c.ose of most missionary organisations, much of history of Christianity because much of it was/is shaped by Calvin's.
That is their choice.
I'll use the Bible's words. The wicked do not attack the innocent. They attack the righteous. Yes they do protect the guilty, because the guilty are just like them.
Rom 1:32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
The wicked hate anybody with authority. Thus the push to de-fund the police and abolish ICE. The hate their teachers, their supervisors and so forth.
But we quote the Bible, they bring Calvin's name into it. So that begs the question, who's idol is it?
You give Bible passages and then give your misunderstanding of what it means to you.
Here, let's look at one (I know it will just be not discussed.)
John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
The "because" there is gar = A primary particle; properly assigning a reason (Strongs)
The word "because" is a conjunction that means "for the reason that" or "due to the fact that." It is used to introduce a clause that explains the reason for something.
Jesus is giving us a cause and effect relationship. A effect and the reason for that effect.
Effect = Something brought about by a cause or agent
Cause = The producer of an effect, result, or consequence
The effect is "you do not believe."
The cause or reason is "You are not of my sheep."
Jesus is plainly saying "because you are not one of my sheep, therefore you do not believe. There is no fix for this.
The above is clear exegesis (a critical explanation or interpretation of a text).
You anti's must turn this around 180 degrees to make it say "because you do not believe, you are not of my sheep. The fix is for them to start believing and then they will become one of His sheep.
Not because that is what it means, but what you wish it says.
This makes the assumption that a person become sheep who was some other animal, a goat for instance. Prove your assumption.
Aside: I dislike dealing with analogies ... better to go to explicit rather then implicit verses to prove a point.
I'm not making that assumption. People are born either sheep or goats - wheat or tares.
But the people who want to deny what those passages say and turn them around must make that assumption.
Let's look at it again.
John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep
I say they were not born sheep, thus they will never believe.
The anti's say they are not sheep because they don't believe, therefore if they start believing they will become sheep.
Most people seem to think that nobody is a sheep until they become one when they believe. You join the flock by believing.
But Jesus is denying this. The "because" is giving the reason for the unbelief.
I spelled it out last time.
Effect = You do not believe
Cause = you are not of my sheep or You are not of God (John 8:47)
I would agree ... aside, the use of analogies makes things less clear.
Ah, your thoughts are more clear to me now. Again, I agree. Above you wrote "The fix is for them to start believing and then they will become one of His sheep" and I attributed this statement to be your stance but I see I was incorrect. Ooops, my bad.