A Question of Salvation

[Andelin]

In Jonah 1:6 we read "At this the men greatly feared the Lord, and they offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made vows to Him.". This is referring to the sailors on the ship Jonah boarded to head from Joppa to Tarshish to flee from the Lord. Jonah had told them he was a Hebrew and worshipped the Lord, the God of heaven (the covenant God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob I believe is clear here). So from this I believe those sailors who did this were "converted" and saved and are now in heaven.

My question is this, is this true for the Ninevites also? We read in Jonah 3:5 "The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from greatest to the least, put on sackcloth." When Jonah's message reached the king of Nineveh he also put on sackcloth and made a decree for all to follow, which we know they did because Jonah 3:10 says "When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, He relented and did not bring on them the destruction He had threatened.". The wearing of sackcloth and covering oneself with ashes refers to the ancient Hebrew custom of indicating humility before God and were an outward sign of mourning and repentance. Were the Ninevites truly repentant and subsequently wanting a relationship with the covenant God of Israel or did they just believe this destruction would happen so did it solely to avoid that?

Is there any reference that I am missing that clearly indicates that the Ninevites were converted as I believe the sailors were? I could speculate what happened but would really like to know what the scripture says.

 

[Hopeful 2]

In Jonah 1:6 we read "At this the men greatly feared the Lord, and they offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made vows to Him.". This is referring to the sailors on the ship Jonah boarded to head from Joppa to Tarshish to flee from the Lord. Jonah had told them he was a Hebrew and worshipped the Lord, the God of heaven (the covenant God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob I believe is clear here). So from this I believe those sailors who did this were "converted" and saved and are now in heaven.

My question is this, is this true for the Ninevites also? We read in Jonah 3:5 "The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from greatest to the least, put on sackcloth." When Jonah's message reached the king of Nineveh he also put on sackcloth and made a decree for all to follow, which we know they did because Jonah 3:10 says "When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, He relented and did not bring on them the destruction He had threatened.". The wearing of sackcloth and covering oneself with ashes refers to the ancient Hebrew custom of indicating humility before God and were an outward sign of mourning and repentance. Were the Ninevites truly repentant and subsequently wanting a relationship with the covenant God of Israel or did they just believe this destruction would happen so did it solely to avoid that?

Is there any reference that I am missing that clearly indicates that the Ninevites were converted as I believe the sailors were? I could speculate what happened but would really like to know what the scripture says.

Welcome to the site, Andelin.
First off, the sailors did illustrate their fear of the Lord with their sacrifices and vows, but not their conversions.
They would have had to convert to Judaism, and obey the Law, in order to be found worthy of eternal life on the day of judgement.
The same holds true for the folks at Nineveh.
Their fear of impending disaster made them change their behavior, but that change had to be until the end of their lives to actually be of any use on the day of final judgement.
Both scenarios, Jonah and the Ninevites, were great lessons that any man can change their evil ways, but were not intended to illustrate anything regarding final judgement.
Just the first steps towards that judgement.

 

[Who Me]

Were the Ninevites truly repentant and subsequently wanting a relationship with the covenant God of Israel or did they just believe this destruction would happen so did it solely to avoid that?

That there repentance was genuine, can be seen in God not carrying out the judgement that Jonah preached.
Do you think that God would be fooled by a less than genuine repentance.

 

[Tenchi]

In Jonah 1:6 we read "At this the men greatly feared the Lord, and they offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made vows to Him.". This is referring to the sailors on the ship Jonah boarded to head from Joppa to Tarshish to flee from the Lord. Jonah had told them he was a Hebrew and worshipped the Lord, the God of heaven (the covenant God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob I believe is clear here). So from this I believe those sailors who did this were "converted" and saved and are now in heaven.

How would being "saved" be possible since Jesus had not died on the cross in Atonement for their sin? Salvation, at least in the New Testament sense, was not possible for anyone in Jonah's time. You've put "converted" in scare quotes, so I assume you realize this, but perhaps you've forgotten that it was quite common for people of Jonah's time to worship an assortment of pagan gods. To such people, Jonah's "god" would have been just another among many gods. So, then, I wouldn't put too much stock in their "worship" of Jehovah. They were simply fearful of the "god" worshipped by their passenger and so did the usual thing in appeasement of an angry god.

My question is this, is this true for the Ninevites also? We read in Jonah 3:5 "The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from greatest to the least, put on sackcloth." When Jonah's message reached the king of Nineveh he also put on sackcloth and made a decree for all to follow, which we know they did because Jonah 3:10 says "When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, He relented and did not bring on them the destruction He had threatened.". The wearing of sackcloth and covering oneself with ashes refers to the ancient Hebrew custom of indicating humility before God and were an outward sign of mourning and repentance. Were the Ninevites truly repentant and subsequently wanting a relationship with the covenant God of Israel or did they just believe this destruction would happen so did it solely to avoid that?

Is there any reference that I am missing that clearly indicates that the Ninevites were converted as I believe the sailors were? I could speculate what happened but would really like to know what the scripture says.

It seems things did not go well with Nineveh in the long term. Read Nahum 2, or Zephaniah 2. Christ, however, acknowledged that the people of Nineveh did actually repent (Matthew 12:41). It didn't last, apparently. Can one say, then, that the people of Nineveh converted and were saved? There doesn't appear to be any good scriptural basis for this thinking...

 

[Josef]

In Jonah 1:6 we read "At this the men greatly feared the Lord, and they offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made vows to Him.". This is referring to the sailors on the ship Jonah boarded to head from Joppa to Tarshish to flee from the Lord. Jonah had told them he was a Hebrew and worshipped the Lord, the God of heaven (the covenant God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob I believe is clear here). So from this I believe those sailors who did this were "converted" and saved and are now in heaven.

My question is this, is this true for the Ninevites also? We read in Jonah 3:5 "The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from greatest to the least, put on sackcloth." When Jonah's message reached the king of Nineveh he also put on sackcloth and made a decree for all to follow, which we know they did because Jonah 3:10 says "When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, He relented and did not bring on them the destruction He had threatened.". The wearing of sackcloth and covering oneself with ashes refers to the ancient Hebrew custom of indicating humility before God and were an outward sign of mourning and repentance. Were the Ninevites truly repentant and subsequently wanting a relationship with the covenant God of Israel or did they just believe this destruction would happen so did it solely to avoid that?

Is there any reference that I am missing that clearly indicates that the Ninevites were converted as I believe the sailors were? I could speculate what happened but would really like to know what the scripture says.

Hey All,
Andelin, believe you meant Jonah 1:16.

Jonah 1:16 Then the men feared the LORD exceedingly, and offered a sacrifice unto the LORD, and made vows.

Yes, this is referring to the sailors aboard the ship. We are not told what vows they made that day. Were they converted to be like those who waited for Messiah? Possibly, but Jonah does not say.

The Ninivites were truly repentant.

Jonah 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

How do we know this was a true repentance?

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God repented of His plans. Did the repentance last? We don't know for sure. Ninevah continued as the Assyrian Empire's capital until it was conquered by the Babylonians in 612BC. Did they revert back to their wicked ways? Is that why God allowed them to be conquered? Who can say? The optimist in me wants to believe that the repentance did last. But factually, we just don't know.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi Andelin

Nineveh is now modern day Iraq. By reading the book of Nahum we read that, even though the people of Nineveh repented after Jonah preached to them they ended up going back to their own ways of whoredom, drinking and idol worshiping. God destroyed Nineveh like He did Sodom and Gomorrah, but saved Judah.

 

[miamited]

HI Andelin

Well, as I understand God's word, no one is destined for God's coming salvation without Jesus. So whether or not they will receive one day God's promise of salvation is likely going to depend on their response when Jesus went to preach to them.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Vinny37]

In Jonah 1:6 we read "At this the men greatly feared the Lord, and they offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made vows to Him.". This is referring to the sailors on the ship Jonah boarded to head from Joppa to Tarshish to flee from the Lord. Jonah had told them he was a Hebrew and worshipped the Lord, the God of heaven (the covenant God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob I believe is clear here). So from this I believe those sailors who did this were "converted" and saved and are now in heaven.

My question is this, is this true for the Ninevites also? We read in Jonah 3:5 "The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from greatest to the least, put on sackcloth." When Jonah's message reached the king of Nineveh he also put on sackcloth and made a decree for all to follow, which we know they did because Jonah 3:10 says "When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, He relented and did not bring on them the destruction He had threatened.". The wearing of sackcloth and covering oneself with ashes refers to the ancient Hebrew custom of indicating humility before God and were an outward sign of mourning and repentance. Were the Ninevites truly repentant and subsequently wanting a relationship with the covenant God of Israel or did they just believe this destruction would happen so did it solely to avoid that?

Is there any reference that I am missing that clearly indicates that the Ninevites were converted as I believe the sailors were? I could speculate what happened but would really like to know what the scripture says.

You might think it pedantic but actually it is important to see that Jnh.1:16 has [LORD], not [Lord]. The former is a common but imperfect way to represent God’s name, not his lordship, and a fair amount of theology hangs on the distinction. Sadly copy/paste often downgrades LORD to Lord. But to your Q…

A big difference between OT and NT is that under Sinai there was no aim to convert. Naomi genuinely discouraged Ruth from entering. But even when conversion became key, Peter and co didn’t seem to bother with gentiles for about 10 years, at which point God stepped in. These data suggest to me that entering in to the covenants either of Sinai or Golgotha, were not imperative for being saved beyond death, though have been a salvation before death. Thus my reading of those Assyrians was that they were basically saved from mortal death—as had Egypt been by Joseph. Ultimately they died, and after that would stand before Yahweh, who judges our hearts. But they never entered into Sinai, since it wasn’t for them. In his global plan, Yahweh had blocked the gentiles from covenant fellowship (one or two snuck in with his permission), while Ethnic Israel was the show (Rm.9:18), and has now blocked the latter (some sneak in with his permission), since the church is the show.

 

[miamited]

You might think it pedantic but actually it is important to see that Jnh.1:16 has [LORD], not [Lord]. The former is a common but imperfect way to represent God’s name, not his lordship, and a fair amount of theology hangs on the distinction. Sadly copy/paste often downgrades LORD to Lord. But to your Q…

A big difference between OT and NT is that under Sinai there was no aim to convert. Naomi genuinely discouraged Ruth from entering. But even when conversion became key, Peter and co didn’t seem to bother with gentiles for about 10 years, at which point God stepped in. These data suggest to me that entering in to the covenants either of Sinai or Golgotha, were not imperative for being saved beyond death, though have been a salvation before death. Thus my reading of those Assyrians was that they were basically saved from mortal death—as had Egypt been by Joseph. Ultimately they died, and after that would stand before Yahweh, who judges our hearts. But they never entered into Sinai, since it wasn’t for them. In his global plan, Yahweh had blocked the gentiles from covenant fellowship (one or two snuck in with his permission), while Ethnic Israel was the show (Rm.9:18), and has now blocked the latter (some sneak in with his permission), since the church is the show.

Hi Andelin

It might be interesting to look at the work that God has done, as the Scriptures tell it. I think you'll find that Vinny37 has a pretty good grasp of what's happening in all of this work of God. Under the old covenant, there was no eternal salvation. The old covenant, if you read the consequences for obedience and disobedience, you will not find any mention of eternal life. The old covenant was God's covenant with the Jewish nation to watch over and protect them in this life. In Deuteronomy we find this as the 'reward' for obedience to God's commands:

"For if you carefully keep all these commandments which I command you to do--to love the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways, and to hold fast to Him--then the Lord will drive out all these nations from before you, and you will dispossess greater and mightier nations than yourselves. Every place on which the sole of your foot treads shall be yours: from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the River Euphrates, even to the Western Sea, shall be your territory. No man shall be able to stand against you; the Lord your God will put the dread of you and the fear of you upon all the land where you tread, just as He has said to you.

This is also where we find God's reference to Israel 'from the river to the seas' that the Palestinians are claiming for themselves.

Deuteronomy 28 gives a complete breakdown of all the promises for obedience and disobedience for following/not following "all his commands I give you today..." Under the old covenant God never asks anyone to go out and proselytize people of the other nations. He does allow that they can be a part of their people, but it isn't something that He asks of them.

So, Israel was never commissioned to go out and preach about God to the world. They were a people chosen through Abraham, and we don't really know 'why' God chose Abraham as he doesn't seem to know anything about God when He first calls him. But God promised that through Abraham He would raise up a people to do His bidding. But His bidding for them was never to preach anything like eternal salvation from God. Israel was raised up by God for the very purpose of writing down all of His testimony, and to slaughter the final sacrificial Lamb.

Then, once Israel completed the task for which they were assigned to do, what Jesus was referring to when he cried out, 'It is finished!" God's salvation came to all of mankind. God is now sitting and waiting patiently for those who will believe and trust the testimony and work that His Son, Jesus, accomplished. Then the end will come!

The Scriptures, from beginning to end, tell us 'how' we got here. Then offer us the testimony of all that God has done. What Jesus meant when he said, "My Father has been working until now...". Then, after all of that work of God was completed, He sent Jesus, Mashiach. He sent Him to His people for them to complete the final preparation for the opening of God's eternal salvation for us. Then the Scriptures continue to tell us 'how' it's all going to end.

That's the entire purpose, as I see it, and I believe as the Scriptures explain it, for God's dealing with His people, Israel. He did not raise Israel to save the world. He sent Jesus to do that. He raised up Israel to provide for us the explanation of all that God was doing in this realm of His creating, to raise up a body of believers who would enjoy His gift of eternal salvation.

And for those who would cry foul because people before Jesus wouldn't then be saved, that's why Jesus went down to Hades while he was in the tomb. The Scriptures tell us that he went to preach to them. So that everyone would then know of God's salvation.

God bless,
Ted