A Review: "The Rapture Question Answered"

[JM]

Nowhere could this author find Walvoord writing on page 148, or any other page, the quote Van Kampen attributes to him. Van Kampen's "quote" could be a deliberate garbled composite of the statement above from Walvoord's book. We hope this is not the case.

http://www.conservativeonline.org/journ ... 3_id04.htm

Let me know what you think!

J

 

[Vic C.]

I haven't read this book. I read The Sign. I should have read The Rapture Question answered first. :wink:

I haven't read Walvoord's book, so I can't comment in that either.

I did glance over the link though. Without going into detail or exploring all the text, the writer did misrepresent some of Van Kampen's ideas. One example:

When Christ speaks of the two men in the field and one taken and one left, context would dictate that the one taken is brought before the King who has returned (24:45-51), and is judged for his unfaithfulness (vv. 50-51). The picture is that the King has come down to reign, and the "one taken" is removed for judgment as the kingdom begins! This is not the Rapture!

This is not what he taught. He believes, if I remember correctly, that this is not the Rapture. It is the seperating of the wheat and tares; the sheep and goat judgement, which occurs after the Wrath is completed. (remember, he teaches Pre-Wrath rapture)

 

[Solo]

After 22 years of salvation, the pre-wrath position reconciles all scripture more than the pretrib rapture position. I have no problem with Jesus returning, taking his out of the picture, and then pouring the wrath out upon the unbelieving just as it was in the days of Noah. Afterards establishing his reign on earth for one thousand years prior to the unleashing of the devil and the resurrection of the unbelievers for the final judgement.

If I am wrong, it can only get better. :D

 

[Georges]

Iim not sure what the 1st post is stating.....I do have many of Walvoord's books in my library and know his position on prophecy pretty well. He and Pentecost were professors at Dallas The Seminary and this school is a strict pretrib rapture institution.

Both Walvoord and Pentecost are pretrib men. In fact Pentecost has written the granddaddy of all prophecy books "Things to Come". In that book he goes into great depth, the differences between the various rapture perspectives.

This is a 300 + page book you can buy on ebay for $10. Good book to have in your library.

 

[JM]

After 22 years of salvation, the pre-wrath position reconciles all scripture more than the pretrib rapture position. I have no problem with Jesus returning, taking his out of the picture, and then pouring the wrath out upon the unbelieving just as it was in the days of Noah. Afterards establishing his reign on earth for one thousand years prior to the unleashing of the devil and the resurrection of the unbelievers for the final judgement.

If I am wrong, it can only get better. :D

The only thing I'll add is this, if you remove all of Paul's writtings from the bible the pre-wrath view still works. This means that the mystery Paul revealed about the rapture and the nature of the Church isn't needed or even considered and is not part of the end times program the pre-wrath folks believe.

Has anyone but me read Things to Come? It's 500 pages, and worth every penny. I see a difference between Israel of the earth and the Church as seated in heavenly places.


:smt119 But I'm just some religious pretriber!

 

[Georges]

Ive got it and read it....see above post.... 8-)

It's a great reference to have.

 

[JM]

Anything else?

 

[BenJasher]

Allow me to simply state this on the whole question of there being a rapture. I will say this and then mind my own business.

All of the teaching I have ever received concerning the rapture tells a story of God taking His people out of the earth prior to, during, or after He pours out His wrath on the earth. Basically that is it in a nutshell, as I understand it.

The glaring difficulty I see with this is that in 35 years of walking with the Lord, I have come to understand that God's wrath was appeased with the Blood sacrifice of His Son. Jesus was the "propitiation" for our sins. As we all know, a propitiation is an atoning sacrifice. In the Greek, the word is spelled "hilaroo". It is where we get the word Hilarious from. It means to "make to laugh".

We are commissioned with the task of preaching the gospel of peace. God is at peace with mankind because of the Blood of Jesus, believe it or not.

Now, I also understand that the word wrath is used in the NT and attributed to God. It is even attributed to the Lamb.

But the word "wrath" is a very interesting word. When we use it in today's modern English, we speak of unbridled anger, or a close facsimile thereof. But in the Greek, the word is "orgay". The Romans are reputed to have had their 'orgies", and we normally think of all manner of sexual debauchery. And in that sense, probably rightfully so. But Orgay, means "intense desire", more often than not.

So, when you read in the scriptures about the "wrath of God", ask yourself a simple question: What is the"intense desire" of God? Is it not that all men should come to repentance? Peter tells us plainly that it is.

Ok, if God is no longer at odds with mankind, and His intense desire is that all men should come to repentance; where in the world does the very notion of a rapture fit in? The rapture theory is a square peg trying to fit in a round hole here. Who is going to take His gospel of peace to those who need to hear it if He snatches us out of the way? Illogical, antithetical nonsense. But please forgive me for saying so.

For me personally, I don't want to leave. I want to be left behind. Read the book by the same name, by Ron Poch. I will even send you a copy if you like. PM me if you are interested.

Consider:
Isaiah 4:3"And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem shall be called Holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem."

Also Zechariah 13:8-9 "And it shall come to pass that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts of it shall be cut off and die, but the third part shall be left."
The wicked are the ones being removed here, not the righteous.
verse 9: "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and will test them as gold is tested; they shall call upon My name and I will hear them. I will say " It is My people and they shall say the Lord is my God."

Malachi 4:1-2 "For behold, the day cometh, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff, and the day that is coming shall set them ablaze," says the Lord of Hosts, "so that it will leave them neither root nor branch."

Who is being taken away here? But there is more...

Verse 2 continues with: "But as for you who revere My name, the sun of righteousness will arise with healing inits wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves released from the stall."

When Jesus said that "two women will be at the well, one taken, the other left." It becomes obvious from the preponderance of other scriptures speaking on the same subject, that it was the wicked of the two who was taken. The righteous woman was left.

"The meek shall inherit the earth."

Proverbs 2:22: "But the wicked shall be cut off from the land, and the treacherous will be uprooted from it."

Proverbs 10:25: "When the whirlwind passes, the wicked is no more, but the righteous has an everlasting foundation."

Proverbs 10:30: "The righteous shall never be removed; But the wicked shall not dwell in the land."

Proverbs 12:7: "The wicked are overthrown and are no more, but the house of the righteous will stand."

Gosh, this is fun, but for me to post an exhaustive list of scriptures that clearly state that it is the wicked to be removed and not the righteous, I would run this post well past the point of readability. I may have done that already.

Like I said to start, my statement has been made. I will sit down and be quiet now. Thank you for allowing me my two cents worth.

 

[Georges]

Allow me to simply state this on the whole question of there being a rapture. I will say this and then mind my own business.

All of the teaching I have ever received concerning the rapture tells a story of God taking His people out of the earth prior to, during, or after He pours out His wrath on the earth. Basically that is it in a nutshell, as I understand it.

The glaring difficulty I see with this is that in 35 years of walking with the Lord, I have come to understand that God's wrath was appeased with the Blood sacrifice of His Son. Jesus was the "propitiation" for our sins. As we all know, a propitiation is an atoning sacrifice. In the Greek, the word is spelled "hilaroo". It is where we get the word Hilarious from. It means to "make to laugh".

We are commissioned with the task of preaching the gospel of peace. God is at peace with mankind because of the Blood of Jesus, believe it or not.

Now, I also understand that the word wrath is used in the NT and attributed to God. It is even attributed to the Lamb.

But the word "wrath" is a very interesting word. When we use it in today's modern English, we speak of unbridled anger, or a close facsimile thereof. But in the Greek, the word is "orgay". The Romans are reputed to have had their 'orgies", and we normally think of all manner of sexual debauchery. And in that sense, probably rightfully so. But Orgay, means "intense desire", more often than not.

So, when you read in the scriptures about the "wrath of God", ask yourself a simple question: What is the"intense desire" of God? Is it not that all men should come to repentance? Peter tells us plainly that it is.

Ok, if God is no longer at odds with mankind, and His intense desire is that all men should come to repentance; where in the world does the very notion of a rapture fit in? The rapture theory is a square peg trying to fit in a round hole here. Who is going to take His gospel of peace to those who need to hear it if He snatches us out of the way? Illogical, antithetical nonsense. But please forgive me for saying so.

For me personally, I don't want to leave. I want to be left behind. Read the book by the same name, by Ron Poch. I will even send you a copy if you like. PM me if you are interested.

Consider:
Isaiah 4:3"And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem shall be called Holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem."

Also Zechariah 13:8-9 "And it shall come to pass that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts of it shall be cut off and die, but the third part shall be left."
The wicked are the ones being removed here, not the righteous.
verse 9: "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and will test them as gold is tested; they shall call upon My name and I will hear them. I will say " It is My people and they shall say the Lord is my God."

Malachi 4:1-2 "For behold, the day cometh, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff, and the day that is coming shall set them ablaze," says the Lord of Hosts, "so that it will leave them neither root nor branch."

Who is being taken away here? But there is more...

Verse 2 continues with: "But as for you who revere My name, the sun of righteousness will arise with healing inits wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves released from the stall."

When Jesus said that "two women will be at the well, one taken, the other left." It becomes obvious from the preponderance of other scriptures speaking on the same subject, that it was the wicked of the two who was taken. The righteous woman was left.

"The meek shall inherit the earth."

Proverbs 2:22: "But the wicked shall be cut off from the land, and the treacherous will be uprooted from it."

Proverbs 10:25: "When the whirlwind passes, the wicked is no more, but the righteous has an everlasting foundation."

Proverbs 10:30: "The righteous shall never be removed; But the wicked shall not dwell in the land."

Proverbs 12:7: "The wicked are overthrown and are no more, but the house of the righteous will stand."

Gosh, this is fun, but for me to post an exhaustive list of scriptures that clearly state that it is the wicked to be removed and not the righteous, I would run this post well past the point of readability. I may have done that already.

Like I said to start, my statement has been made. I will sit down and be quiet now. Thank you for allowing me my two cents worth.

Ben....in retrospect, the famous rapturesque passage of...

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Very often mistakened for the rapture of the righteous when in fact it is the taking away of the wicked at the second coming...

The hint is in the language used when the disciples ask "where Lord" in Mat's sister passage.....

Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together.

In Judaism, the gathering of eagles is synonomous with the Feast of Fowls which in Judaism is the Feast of Leviathan. The Feast of Leviathan is associated with the Feast Day of Sukkot (Tabernacles).

 

[JM]

The only problem I have with your view is this: It is supported by passages that speak to Israel. The Church was a mystery until Paul revealed it Rom. 16:25 and prophecy of the OT does not cover this mystery at all.

The Pauline Myteries are:

(1) The “mystery of faith†(1 Tim. 3:9). “The faith†is not only the body of doctrine that sets forth the heavenly truths revealed in Paul’s gospel, but that spiritual apprehension of them that held them fast in the spirit and in a good conscience. It is not opinions, but vital revelations of the Gospel, held as living oracles of God.

(2) The mystery of the union of Christ and the Church as His Body and Bride, is especially revealed in Eph. 5, but appears throughout all the Pauline epistles, even in Romans 12:5, as also in 1 Cor. 12:12, and Eph. 1:22, 23. This union is the basis of all the exhortations to love and obedience.

(3) The “mystery of Christ†(Eph. 3:4), shows that in this mystical Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, all having been chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, having been cut off from their connection by birth with the first Adam, at the Cross, and created anew in Christ. Paul was made minister of this mystery and given the task “to make all men see what is the stewardship of this mystery which for ages has been hid in God Who created all things†(Eph. 3:9). The object was that through this Church might be made known the manifold wisdom of God unto the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.

The Church itself was to belong to heaven, though formed by the Spirit on earth, Christ Himself being the Head of it, and every believer a member of Christ and of one another in this Body which will be (has been) given the highest place in glory, though recreated from earth’s sinners, according to “the purpose of the ages,†which the Father purposes in the Son. The highest place given to the lowest creatures, thus reveals the character of the Father  His manifold wisdom forever as nothing else could do. God is Himself love, and the Cross is an exhibition of that love and the commendation of it.

The Church, being given the highest position in heaven, will exhibit the activity of that love which is called in Scripture, grace. The world knows nothing of this. It regards the Church as having taken Israel’s place, and being simply an earthly religious organization seeking to obey the general human conscience. The world knows nothing of the fact that the Church is already called, justified, and glorified, being united to Christ Himself, in death, risen and seated with Him in the heavenly places; and that same favor is extended to it, that is extended to the Father’s Beloved, its Head; and its worship is by the Holy Spirit.

(4) The mystery of God  even Christ, “in whom are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge hidden†(Col. 2:2, 3). This heavenly and glorified Lord Jesus is revealed to the heart of the believer as the Object of his worship, faith, praise and fellowship  by the Holy Spirit. This heavenly One is altogether unknown by the unsaved man.

(5) The mystery of Christ indwelling the believer (Col. 1:26, 27). He is called “Christ in you, the hope of glory.†“Abide in me, and I in you†(Col. 1:27; John 15:4). This is the great two-fold mystery, which in these Colossians verses is said to “fill up†the Word of God, being the highest revelation therein, and being the mystery which hath been hid from the ages and generations, but now being manifested. The “riches of the glory of this mystery†is made known to saints.

(6) The mystery of the Rapture of the Church at the Lord’s coming into the air, involving both the raising of those who have fallen asleep in the Lord Jesus, and also those alive at the moment (1 Thess. 4; 1 Cor. 15).

(7) The mystery of the fellow-heirship in Christ of Jew and Gentile (Eph. 3:3, 4, 9). This mystery does not seem great to us now who live on this earth, where we are accustomed to Jew and Gentile distinction as well as national differences generally, but when we remember that the Church was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (when there was no such distinction, or, indeed, any human being whatsoever), we see how great a secret this is: especially in view of the peculiar promises to national Israel in the Old Testament.

(8) The mystery of the wisdom of God, in secret in Christ: so that Paul and true preachers speak the wisdom of God that hath been hidden before the ages for our glory (1 Cor. 2:7). These things are revealed to us by the Spirit Who not only refuses to use man’s wisdom but also man’s words: “in words which the Spirit teacheth combining (or expressing) spiritual things with spiritual words.â€Â

(9) The mystery of the Kingdom of God, in righteousness, peace, and joy in the Spirit (Rom. 14:17). Only new-born or new-created men in Christ know this mystery ( 2 Cor. 5:17; John 3:3).

(10) The mystery of iniquity (2 Thess. 2:7). Satan is not permitted as yet to bring forth fully the “apostasy,†which will come when the world worships Satan intelligently (Rev. 13), the Church having been previously taken away according to 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18, and Revelation 3:10). Babylon or “confusion†is another name for this mystery in this age  see harlot church (Rev. 17), centered in seven-hilled Rome.

(11) The mystery of the hardening in part of Israel (Rom. 11:25). Though there is at present a remnant according to the election of grace, yet national Israel’s eyes are peculiarly blinded to their own Scriptures, to Christ as their Messiah, and to grace as God’s only method of salvation.

(12) The mystery of God’s will purposed in Christ, looking unto “a dispensation of the fullness of times, to sum up (Eph. 1:10) all things in Christ (that is). the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth†(not the lower or lost world, as in Phil. 2:10; Rev. 5:13). The foundation of this in Eph. 2:10, will be the ¬œBlood of His Cross†(Col. 1:19, 20). The saints alone have this mighty future purpose of God revealed to them; all others count upon man and the earth, which is cursed.  Wm. R. Newell

A mystery is something not known, nowhere before Paul do we find these mysteries revealed.

Peace,

JM

 

[Vic C.]

Gosh, this is fun, but for me to post an exhaustive list of scriptures that clearly state that it is the wicked to be removed and not the righteous, I would run this post well past the point of readability. I may have done that already.

Like I said to start, my statement has been made. I will sit down and be quiet now. Thank you for allowing me my two cents worth.

Don't worry about it one bit Ben, this forum is for hashing out End Times prophecy, doctrine and ideas. It would be a very boring Forum if we all said a few things then just sit back and say no more.

Feel free to continue to post your thoughts and beliefs.

Ben....in retrospect, the famous rapturesque passage of...

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Very often mistakened for the rapture of the righteous when in fact it is the taking away of the wicked at the second coming...

The only problem I have with your view is this: It is supported by passages that speak to Israel. The Church was a mystery until Paul revealed it Rom. 16:25 and prophecy of the OT does not cover this mystery at all.

I agree with George and Jason. I too believe the Matthew verses George mentioned line up with the verses you quoted. I don't seperate the church and Israel as much as our dispensational members do but... I too believe these verses are exclusive to "Israel".

Keep posting your thoughts Ben. There is not one single person here, spirit-led or not, that is 100% correct in their eschatological views.

 

[Darrell dunn]

Keep posting your thoughts Ben. There is not one single person here, spirit-led or not, that is 100% correct in their eschatological views.

[/quote]

I DO NOT AGREE, BECAUSE WHAT I POST IS FROM THE LORD, AND HE DOSE NOT LIE OR CHANGE.

 

[Vic C.]

Mohammed claimed the very same thing, you know. :-?

I'd like to avoid the exclusive "I'm right, everyone else is wrong" mindset here, in this End Times Forum.

Also... just a reminder:

Rule 13 - Posting Etiquette:
Please keep the posts down to a respectable length. You stand a better chance of getting your point across. People may not want to read them if they are too long. No using all CAPTIAL LETTERS in your responses. That is considered an aggressive action.

8-)

 

[Darrell dunn]

Sorry about the Capital letters. Didn't realize that I had done that.

But what I post is straight from the Lord, right out of his mouth, and the bible.
No other teacher at all.

I have told you before that I try to stay close enough to the Lord, that he can answer right now.

I have in the past wondered off of the path far enough that he couldn't speak to me and that is scary for me.

I do not speak on those things that I have no knowledge.

And I trust the lord so much, You can stone me if I tell a lie.

 

[BenJasher]

Thanks Vic for the welcome.

I won't make this long, but I want to remark on something here.

In all the responses to my post, I noticed that noone addressed my reasons for not believing that the idea of a rapture is a valid scriptural concept. The responses centered on my deeply abbreviated list of scriptures, mainly, and tended to inform me that they were not used in their proper context, (Which changes nothing), to addressing the Pauline mysteries. (??)

Take another look at my post. Notice the word "Consider:" followed by a list of scriptures. Anything coming before "Consider:" is the meat of what I had to say. Anything after that, well...

I DO NOT AGREE, BECAUSE WHAT I POST IS FROM THE LORD, AND HE DOSE NOT LIE OR CHANGE.

Next time you say that, use some smilies, that way we all know you don't really mean to taken seriously. :-D :turn-l: :smt021

 

[Geo]

If that's a context that has anything to do with the end-times I would say:

How similar to the reasoning the anti-christ might have to explain the
rapture to his followers. See, all the wicked have been taken, doesn't it
prove that I'm the true christ.

However, I do not find a reason why God would not grant you what you
ask for, here are a few details for the qualifying groups skillfully hardend
over many years, to show you why 'the wicked ' simply do not deserve
this kind of treatment, and had to be taken away prior to its events:

Rev. 6:15-17 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and
the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty
men, and every bondman, and every freeman, hid
themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the
mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on
us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on
the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great DAY of His wrath is come; and who
shall be able to stand?

Isaiah 2:12, 19 For the Day of the Lord of Hosts shall be upon
every one that is proud and lofty, and upon
every one that is lifted up, and he shall be
brought low;

19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks,
and into the caves of the earth, for fear of
the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty,
when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Luke 21:26 Mens hearts failing them for fear, and for looking
after those things which are coming on the earth. .

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be
ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE ALL these things that
shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I trust human science that much to believe that nobody is that far out of
touch to not realize a mistake when it really starts to hurt. Just like there
are no true atheists in the moment of death.

 

[Vic C.]

Sorry about the Capital letters. Didn't realize that I had done that.

It's all good Darrell. :-D It was an emotional response and I understand that. I posted the TOS rule as a reminder that it not become a habit for anyone here to CAP all letters and words. Plus, I may have provoked you; my comment about no one being 100% correct was in response to your "scrambled eggs" comment in another thread. 8-) Sorry. :
__________________________________________________________________________

I trust human science that much to believe that nobody is that far out of
touch to not realize a mistake when it really starts to hurt. Just like there
are no true atheists in the moment of death.

Geo, interesting comment and post. I follow what you are saying. It occurs to me though that there will still be unrepented ones regardless of the outpouring of Wrath.

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

 

[Vic C.]

Darrell, check the "stickey" thread at the top of the Forum. I posted the link I PM'd you about the other day.

Vic

 

[Geo]

Yes Vic, good additional find. That means there will come a
point of no return. What makes it all the way more troublesome
to know time is running out TO KNOW GOD.

And one P.S. to the original poster: Ben, your suggestion to a brother
in the Lord to add a smiley to his declaration that he has a true
relationship with the living God did not go unnoticed.

You seem to find it mildly amusing, and I suspect nearly impossible
that there is a living God that talks to his children. Don't you know
that this is the actual content of the New Testament? That Jesus
Christ came in the flesh and then sent us the Holy Spirit.
Where have you been the last 35 years?

 

[Darrell dunn]

Geo

After the rapture there will be 7 years that the word will be preached.

This is represented by the seven days that Noah set on the ark before the rain started.
Gen.7:1-10
And the Lord said unto Noah, come thou and all thy house into the ark---------
V4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth

First the foolish virgins will preach for about 3 1/2 years then the 144,000 for about 3 1/2 years.

Then after that only those that live through the rest will be what we call saved.
There are several scriptures that say endure till the end and they will be saved.