S
Soma-Sight
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Did everyone who died before Jesus died go to Hell? Justify your answer.
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J
Julian Pyke
Guest
No.
If they had Faith God would forgive them of their sins, and made a sacrafice sybolising their savior (for the future) then they would go to Heaven.
They had to have faith that Jesus would come, and in God.
If they sinned they had to make a sacrafice sybolising Jesus.
If they had Faith God would forgive them of their sins, and made a sacrafice sybolising their savior (for the future) then they would go to Heaven.
They had to have faith that Jesus would come, and in God.
If they sinned they had to make a sacrafice sybolising Jesus.
A
aiki
Guest
No.
Who appeared with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration?
Moses and Elijah. (Matthew 17:3)
What happened to Enoch?
He was "translated that he should not see death". (Heb. 11:5)
Did God send the "apple of His eye", King David, to Hell?
Not likely.
Why were sacrifices for sin made by the people of Israel if the end result was still Hell?
I'm too lazy right now to write more.
In Christ, Aiki.
Who appeared with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration?
Moses and Elijah. (Matthew 17:3)
What happened to Enoch?
He was "translated that he should not see death". (Heb. 11:5)
Did God send the "apple of His eye", King David, to Hell?
Not likely.
Why were sacrifices for sin made by the people of Israel if the end result was still Hell?
I'm too lazy right now to write more.
In Christ, Aiki.
R
Rick W
Guest
Soma-Sight said:
They were to have faith. looking to the future for a coming Messiah, as we are to have faith looking to the past of Him that had come.
The Pharisee's were very curious about who John the Baptist was. It's quite evident they were looking for a Messiah to come.
John 1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
John 1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elijah? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that Prophet? And he answered, No.
John 1:22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
John 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Isaiah.
John 1:24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
John 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elijah, neither that prophet?
John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
John 1:27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
John 1:28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
stovebolts
Member
Soma-Sight said:
A simple question requires a simple answer.
First of all, show me 'hell' in the OT, I'm I'll show you shoel which is simply the grave. (Sometimes pit, but not as a rule)
So, the answer is... with the exception of a couple select prophets that were swept away by God's hand, yes, everyone went to Sheol, (er, uh, cough.... hell) even David. But even David speaks about the Lord comforting him in Sheol.
Ohhh, btw, I stake no claim on being a scholar but figured I'd throw in me .02
A
Abiyah
Guest
Soma-Sight said:
Hello there ! Just wanted to add to this question using God's Word.
I think one thing that we need to ask ourselves is this....... Is God Fair ? Would it be FAIR that the people that lived before Christ had no opportunity for salvation ? The answer is no, it would not be fair. And God is perfectly fair... right ? I myself would answer this question like this......... YES, OF COURSE GOD IS FAIR.
I PETER 3:18-19
" For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, BUT QUICKENED BY THE SPIRIT [ quickened= made alive ]. BY WHICH ALSO HE WENT AND PREACHED UNTO THE SPIRITS IN PRISON. "
Jesus Christ, the Saviour, went all the way back to the begining after His crucifixtion and preached salvation to those souls that did not make it to the Right side of Heaven, as it is written and described in Luke 16, in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man; Christ explained to us what it was like in Heaven, that some people are not on the right side of Heaven, but those on the wrong side could see across the divider, and that Rich Man desired to be on the Right side of Heaven.
Therefore those people that passed away BEFORE Christ crucifixtion, did have the opportunity of Salvation through Him.
Abiyah
M
Moge
Guest
I agree with StoveBolts; simple question, simple answer.
YES, all who died before the sacrifice of Jesus went to the realm of the dead, the pit, the grave; what we call in our Anglican vernacular "hell"
It is really brain dead simple if you think about it. If there was no "hell" before Christ, and nobody went there when they died; then who, pray tell were the ones whose graves opened up that they might walk the streets of Jerusalem when He died? Who were the disobedient dead that He led captive when He ascended on High? Who was it that Jesus preached to when He descended into the lower parts of the earth? The other brother mentioned this quite well earlier in this thread.
If, in the Israelite mind, there was no concept of a resting place for the righteous dead, which was also a "pit" or "prison house" for the unrighteous dead, then the parable of the rich man and Lazarus was a waste of time for Jesus to tell it. I just don't think that Jesus made a habit of wasting His breath.
Simple. Brain dead simple.
YES, all who died before the sacrifice of Jesus went to the realm of the dead, the pit, the grave; what we call in our Anglican vernacular "hell"
It is really brain dead simple if you think about it. If there was no "hell" before Christ, and nobody went there when they died; then who, pray tell were the ones whose graves opened up that they might walk the streets of Jerusalem when He died? Who were the disobedient dead that He led captive when He ascended on High? Who was it that Jesus preached to when He descended into the lower parts of the earth? The other brother mentioned this quite well earlier in this thread.
If, in the Israelite mind, there was no concept of a resting place for the righteous dead, which was also a "pit" or "prison house" for the unrighteous dead, then the parable of the rich man and Lazarus was a waste of time for Jesus to tell it. I just don't think that Jesus made a habit of wasting His breath.
Simple. Brain dead simple.
B
bibleberean
Guest
This might be of some value...
Excerpted from the book Rightly Dividing the Word by Clarence Larkin 1920
II. HELL
To have a correct view of the other world, and of "Hell," it is necessary that we have a Scriptural understanding of--
THE UNDERWORLD.
The Hebrew word "SHEOL" is found 65 times in the Old Testament. It is translated 31 times, "HELL;" 31 times, "GRAVE;" 3 times, "THE PIT." The corresponding word in the Greek of the New Testament is "HADES." It is translated 10 times "HELL." "Sheol" and "Hades" mean "The Unseen State," or the place to which the "Soul" and "Spirit" of the dead go between the death and the resurrection of the body.
The "bodies" of the dead go into the "Grave," the word for which in the Hebrew is "GEBER," and in the Greek "MNEMEION." Neither "Sheol" nor "Hades" denote the "Hell" of final punishment of the wicked. That is called in the Hebrew of the Old Testament "TOPHET," and in the Greek of the New Testament "GEHENNA."
Neither do they denote "THE BOTTOMLESS PIT" (Re 20:1-3), that is "ABUSSOS," nor the "prison house" of the "Fallen Angels" (2Pe 2:4; Jude 1:6), that is "TARTARUS." Their general meaning is-- "THE UNDERWORLD..."
...The word "Sheol" means a "hollow subterranean place," therefore "Hades" must mean the same. It has "gates," for Jesus said that the "Gates of Hell" (Hades), should not prevail against the Church. Mt 16:18.
And Jesus after His return from "The Underworld," said-- "I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the `KEYS' (of the Gates) of hell (Hades) and of death (the Grave)." Re 1:18. To get these "Keys" Jesus had to descend into the "lower parts of the earth." Eph 4:9.
The Apostolic Creed says that Jesus descended into "Hell" (Hades).
Therefore Hades, or "The Underworld," must be in the "heart of the earth," and is so pictured on the Chart. Jesus said to the penitent Thief "TODAY shalt thou be with me in `Paradise.'" Lu 23:43.
And as Jesus "that day" descended into "The Underworld" or "Hades," "Paradise" must have been in Christ's day in "Hades."
But as it had been prophesied of Jesus that His "SOUL" (for His body was in Joseph's Tomb on the surface of the earth) should not remain in "Hell" (Hades), (Ps 16:10; Ac 2:27), therefore, before His body could see corruption, Jesus came back from "Hades." But He did not come back alone. He seized the "Keys of Hades," unlocked the Gates of the Paradise Section in which He was confined, and emptied it of its captives, and when He ascended on high He took them to the Paradise section of the "Third Heaven" where they now are, and since then the Paradise Section of "The Underworld" has been empty. Eph 4:8-10.
In the account of the experience of the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus" in the other world (Lu 16:19-31), Jesus gives us a description of "The Underworld" as it was in His day. According to the narrative, for it is not a parable, for parables do not give proper names as Abraham and Lazarus, both the "Rich Man" and Lazarus had died and their bodies had been buried, and what happened to them in the "Underworld," was descriptive of what happened to them in their "disembodied state."
In that state they were conscious, could see, hear, speak, and recognized each other. The difference was that Lazarus was in the "Paradise" section of the "Underworld" , typified by Abraham's "bosom," while the "Rich Man" was in the "Hell" section, not the final Hell, which is "Gehenna" (Lake of Fire), but in the section of the "Underworld" where the "souls" of the "Wicked" dead go, and remain until the resurrection of the "Wicked" dead. Between the "Paradise" section, and the "Hell" section of the "Underworld" there is an "Impassable Gulf" , (Lu 16:26), which reveals the fact that there is no possibility of the "Wicked" dead ever getting out of "Hell" into "Paradise."
The "Impassable Gulf" is represented as the entrance to the "Bottomless Pit," or "ABYSS" ,the "prison house" of the "Demons" (Re 9:1-21), and where Satan is to be bound for 1000 years. Re 20:1-3,7-8.
The Old Testament speaks of a place in "The Underworld" called in the Hebrew "ABADDON," and in the Greek "APOLEIA." The word is translated in the Old Testament, "DESTRUCTION" (Pr 27:20; Job 26:6; 28:22; 31:12; Ps 88:11; Pr 15:11), and the same in the New Testament (Mt 7:13; Ro 9:22; Php 3:19; 2Pe 2:1; 3:16). In Pr 27:20 it says-- "Hell (Hades) and `Destruction' (Abaddon) are never full," thus connecting "Abaddon" with "Hades" (Sheol).
The inference is that "Abaddon" is a part of "The Underworld," and when we turn to Re 9:1-3,11, this inference becomes a certainty, for there we read that the "King" of the "Bottomless Pit" is called in the Hebrew tongue "ABADDON," but in the Greek tongue his name is "APOLLYON," that is, the King of the "Bottomless Pit" is named after the Hebrew and Greek words that are translated-- "DESTRUCTION."
Now the word translated "Bottomless Pit" is "ABUSSOS," or "ABYSS." Nine times do we read of this "Abyss" in the New Testament. Ro 10:7; Re 9:1-2,11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1-3. It is the place into which the Demons besought Christ not to send them. Lu 8:31.
The "Bottomless Pit" or "Abyss" then is a deeper compartment in "The Underworld" than "Paradise" , or "Hell" , and is the place where the "Demons" and baser spirits are temporarily confined until they are finally consigned to the "Lake of Fire" to spend eternity with their Master, Satan.
Near to the"Bottomless Pit" is "TARTARUS", the "prison house" of the "Fallen Angels." 2Pe 2:4; Jude 1:6. These "Angels" are not Satan's angels, for they are at liberty.
These "Fallen Angels" confined in "Tartarus" are the "Sons of God" who married the "Daughters of Men," and whose abnormal sin caused the Flood. They are to remain in their "prison house" until the "Great White Throne" Judgment, when they with the "Wicked Dead" are to be judged. Jude 1:6.
In another place next to the "Bottomless Pit" is "GEHENNA" . This is the "Final Hell" or "LAKE OF FIRE" prepared for the Devil and his angels, into which the "Wicked," after the "Great White Throne" Judgment, will be cast to spend eternity. Mt 25:41; Re 20:12-15. It is called "TOPHET" in the Old Testament Hebrew (2Ki 23:10; Isa 30:33; Jer 7:31-32; 19:6,11-14), and in the New Testament Greek it is twelve times called "GEHENNA" (Mt 5:22,29-30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mr 9:43,45-47; Lu 12:5; Jas 3:6), and five times the "LAKE OF FIRE."
It is as yet unoccupied. The first persons to get into it are the "Beast" and the "False Prophet" (Re 19:20), then "SATAN" and his Angels a 1000 years later (Re 20:10), and then after the "Great White Throne" Judgment the "Fallen Angels," now confined in Tartarus, and all the wicked whose names are not found written in the "Book of Life." Re 20:12-15.
On the south side of Jerusalem was the "Valley of Hinnom." At a high place in this valley called "Tophet," in the times of Isaiah and Jeremiah, parents made their children to pass through the fire to Moloch. 2Ki 23:10. This fire was kindled with brimstone. Isa 30:33. The locality afterward became a place for the burning of garbage from the City of Jerusalem. The fires were kept up perpetually, and the decaying matter as yet unconsumed bred worms.
Jesus took this valley called "Ge-Hinnom," corrupted into "GEHENNA," and made it a type of "Hell" or the "Lake of Fire," where "their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Mr 9:43-48.
Excerpted from the book Rightly Dividing the Word by Clarence Larkin 1920
II. HELL
To have a correct view of the other world, and of "Hell," it is necessary that we have a Scriptural understanding of--
THE UNDERWORLD.
The Hebrew word "SHEOL" is found 65 times in the Old Testament. It is translated 31 times, "HELL;" 31 times, "GRAVE;" 3 times, "THE PIT." The corresponding word in the Greek of the New Testament is "HADES." It is translated 10 times "HELL." "Sheol" and "Hades" mean "The Unseen State," or the place to which the "Soul" and "Spirit" of the dead go between the death and the resurrection of the body.
The "bodies" of the dead go into the "Grave," the word for which in the Hebrew is "GEBER," and in the Greek "MNEMEION." Neither "Sheol" nor "Hades" denote the "Hell" of final punishment of the wicked. That is called in the Hebrew of the Old Testament "TOPHET," and in the Greek of the New Testament "GEHENNA."
Neither do they denote "THE BOTTOMLESS PIT" (Re 20:1-3), that is "ABUSSOS," nor the "prison house" of the "Fallen Angels" (2Pe 2:4; Jude 1:6), that is "TARTARUS." Their general meaning is-- "THE UNDERWORLD..."
...The word "Sheol" means a "hollow subterranean place," therefore "Hades" must mean the same. It has "gates," for Jesus said that the "Gates of Hell" (Hades), should not prevail against the Church. Mt 16:18.
And Jesus after His return from "The Underworld," said-- "I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the `KEYS' (of the Gates) of hell (Hades) and of death (the Grave)." Re 1:18. To get these "Keys" Jesus had to descend into the "lower parts of the earth." Eph 4:9.
The Apostolic Creed says that Jesus descended into "Hell" (Hades).
Therefore Hades, or "The Underworld," must be in the "heart of the earth," and is so pictured on the Chart. Jesus said to the penitent Thief "TODAY shalt thou be with me in `Paradise.'" Lu 23:43.
And as Jesus "that day" descended into "The Underworld" or "Hades," "Paradise" must have been in Christ's day in "Hades."
But as it had been prophesied of Jesus that His "SOUL" (for His body was in Joseph's Tomb on the surface of the earth) should not remain in "Hell" (Hades), (Ps 16:10; Ac 2:27), therefore, before His body could see corruption, Jesus came back from "Hades." But He did not come back alone. He seized the "Keys of Hades," unlocked the Gates of the Paradise Section in which He was confined, and emptied it of its captives, and when He ascended on high He took them to the Paradise section of the "Third Heaven" where they now are, and since then the Paradise Section of "The Underworld" has been empty. Eph 4:8-10.
In the account of the experience of the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus" in the other world (Lu 16:19-31), Jesus gives us a description of "The Underworld" as it was in His day. According to the narrative, for it is not a parable, for parables do not give proper names as Abraham and Lazarus, both the "Rich Man" and Lazarus had died and their bodies had been buried, and what happened to them in the "Underworld," was descriptive of what happened to them in their "disembodied state."
In that state they were conscious, could see, hear, speak, and recognized each other. The difference was that Lazarus was in the "Paradise" section of the "Underworld" , typified by Abraham's "bosom," while the "Rich Man" was in the "Hell" section, not the final Hell, which is "Gehenna" (Lake of Fire), but in the section of the "Underworld" where the "souls" of the "Wicked" dead go, and remain until the resurrection of the "Wicked" dead. Between the "Paradise" section, and the "Hell" section of the "Underworld" there is an "Impassable Gulf" , (Lu 16:26), which reveals the fact that there is no possibility of the "Wicked" dead ever getting out of "Hell" into "Paradise."
The "Impassable Gulf" is represented as the entrance to the "Bottomless Pit," or "ABYSS" ,the "prison house" of the "Demons" (Re 9:1-21), and where Satan is to be bound for 1000 years. Re 20:1-3,7-8.
The Old Testament speaks of a place in "The Underworld" called in the Hebrew "ABADDON," and in the Greek "APOLEIA." The word is translated in the Old Testament, "DESTRUCTION" (Pr 27:20; Job 26:6; 28:22; 31:12; Ps 88:11; Pr 15:11), and the same in the New Testament (Mt 7:13; Ro 9:22; Php 3:19; 2Pe 2:1; 3:16). In Pr 27:20 it says-- "Hell (Hades) and `Destruction' (Abaddon) are never full," thus connecting "Abaddon" with "Hades" (Sheol).
The inference is that "Abaddon" is a part of "The Underworld," and when we turn to Re 9:1-3,11, this inference becomes a certainty, for there we read that the "King" of the "Bottomless Pit" is called in the Hebrew tongue "ABADDON," but in the Greek tongue his name is "APOLLYON," that is, the King of the "Bottomless Pit" is named after the Hebrew and Greek words that are translated-- "DESTRUCTION."
Now the word translated "Bottomless Pit" is "ABUSSOS," or "ABYSS." Nine times do we read of this "Abyss" in the New Testament. Ro 10:7; Re 9:1-2,11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1-3. It is the place into which the Demons besought Christ not to send them. Lu 8:31.
The "Bottomless Pit" or "Abyss" then is a deeper compartment in "The Underworld" than "Paradise" , or "Hell" , and is the place where the "Demons" and baser spirits are temporarily confined until they are finally consigned to the "Lake of Fire" to spend eternity with their Master, Satan.
Near to the"Bottomless Pit" is "TARTARUS", the "prison house" of the "Fallen Angels." 2Pe 2:4; Jude 1:6. These "Angels" are not Satan's angels, for they are at liberty.
These "Fallen Angels" confined in "Tartarus" are the "Sons of God" who married the "Daughters of Men," and whose abnormal sin caused the Flood. They are to remain in their "prison house" until the "Great White Throne" Judgment, when they with the "Wicked Dead" are to be judged. Jude 1:6.
In another place next to the "Bottomless Pit" is "GEHENNA" . This is the "Final Hell" or "LAKE OF FIRE" prepared for the Devil and his angels, into which the "Wicked," after the "Great White Throne" Judgment, will be cast to spend eternity. Mt 25:41; Re 20:12-15. It is called "TOPHET" in the Old Testament Hebrew (2Ki 23:10; Isa 30:33; Jer 7:31-32; 19:6,11-14), and in the New Testament Greek it is twelve times called "GEHENNA" (Mt 5:22,29-30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mr 9:43,45-47; Lu 12:5; Jas 3:6), and five times the "LAKE OF FIRE."
It is as yet unoccupied. The first persons to get into it are the "Beast" and the "False Prophet" (Re 19:20), then "SATAN" and his Angels a 1000 years later (Re 20:10), and then after the "Great White Throne" Judgment the "Fallen Angels," now confined in Tartarus, and all the wicked whose names are not found written in the "Book of Life." Re 20:12-15.
On the south side of Jerusalem was the "Valley of Hinnom." At a high place in this valley called "Tophet," in the times of Isaiah and Jeremiah, parents made their children to pass through the fire to Moloch. 2Ki 23:10. This fire was kindled with brimstone. Isa 30:33. The locality afterward became a place for the burning of garbage from the City of Jerusalem. The fires were kept up perpetually, and the decaying matter as yet unconsumed bred worms.
Jesus took this valley called "Ge-Hinnom," corrupted into "GEHENNA," and made it a type of "Hell" or the "Lake of Fire," where "their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Mr 9:43-48.
S
Servant_2000
Guest
Soma-Sight said:
Those who are dead “in Christ†are in His presence now. This includes Old Testament saints (2 Corinthians 5:8 Philippians 1:23 Matthew 17:3 and Moses and Elijah in God’s presence). Those who are dead in Christ now or before He comes for the rapture will receive resurrected bodies at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
The unsaved dead are shut out from the presence of the Lord in Hades and are conscious now of their punishment (Luke 16:23) and await final eternal torment when Hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). Thus Hades may be seen as the current abode of the unsaved dead.
S
Soma-Sight
Guest
Sorry I am a bit confused on something?.... :-?
How can you determine someone as "unsaved" when the defintion of "saved" is a verbal confession of the Lord Jesus Christ? The ones that were "saved" in the OT through your reasoning never knew Jesus.....
So either
1. The doctrine of Jesus death as exclusive atonement is erroneuos....
2. Alternative "faith" or "works" based methods of "salvation" existed before the Cross and quite possibly after.....
J
jgarden_47
Guest
Soma-Sight said:
What possible reason would God have for condemning the entire OT to Hell?
S
Soma-Sight
Guest
According to Christian sound doctrine if you dont have the blood of Jesus you are damned no matter the circumstances or time.....
That is why God will condemn all OT people.....
Another Gospel another Way?
That sounds blasphemous!
Otherwise the "ways" of salvation that existed in the OT would still be valid today as "time" is irrelevant!
L
Lyric's Dad
Guest
I think of the parable of the rich man and lazarus. One went to the bosom of Abraham to await salvation based on the way that he lived and the faith He had in God. The other went to the pit based on his way of life and lack of faith in God.Soma-Sight said:
C
Cure of Ars
Guest
If you look at Hebrews 11 it talks about the faith of the heros of the OT. It then says, "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin..." (Hebrews 12:1)
If these OT heros where in hell then we would not be "surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses".
In Catholic theology there is a concept called invincible ignorance. If a person does not know about Jesus specifically or does not know that he needs to have faith in Jesus and be baptised, by no fault of his or her own, then Jesus will not judge them on that. I think the bottom line is that we as Christians are bound to have "faith working through love" to be saved but God is not bound to send someone to hell for something that is not their fault. Salvation is a gift and as long as you don't reject this gift it is possible to be saved by Christ's mercy.
If these OT heros where in hell then we would not be "surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses".
In Catholic theology there is a concept called invincible ignorance. If a person does not know about Jesus specifically or does not know that he needs to have faith in Jesus and be baptised, by no fault of his or her own, then Jesus will not judge them on that. I think the bottom line is that we as Christians are bound to have "faith working through love" to be saved but God is not bound to send someone to hell for something that is not their fault. Salvation is a gift and as long as you don't reject this gift it is possible to be saved by Christ's mercy.
[quote="servant_2000Those who are dead “in Christ†are in His presence now. This includes Old Testament saints (2 Corinthians 5:8 Philippians 1:23 Matthew 17:3 and Moses and Elijah in God’s presence). Those who are dead in Christ now or before He comes for the rapture will receive resurrected bodies at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
The unsaved dead are shut out from the presence of the Lord in Hades and are conscious now of their punishment (Luke 16:23) and await final eternal torment when Hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). Thus Hades may be seen as the current abode of the unsaved dead.[/quote]
Hmm...Yeah. And other than Luke 16, what proof do you have of your interesting views?
The 'dead in Christ' are not dead if they are in God's presence right now. The Bible says that the 'dead in Christ will rise first'. They are 'dead in Christ' because they have the promise of eternal life and like Christ mentioned in Acts 2:34, God will not 'leave their souls in hell or suffer them to see corruption'. The dead in Christ rise from the graves, not come back conscious and re-inhabit them. The resurrection is useless and redundant if that is so.
The wicked are not in hell right now in punishment because their punishment occurs at the end of time. There is not two punishments. Again, you are using Luke 16 as your theological reference to interpret the rest of scriptures that don't support Luke 16.
The Bible says that the wicked are 'reserved unto the day of judgment to be punished'. They suffer the wages of sin which is death. They are not conscious anywhere at this time but await their resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20 where they are resurrected to judgment and then to their punishment.
The OT saints are awaiting the resurrection call as anticipated by Job, Daniel and David. Job 10:10-14, Acts 2:31-34; Daniel 12:1
Christ comes to make all things right and fulfill his promise He made in John 14:1-3. An interesting thing to promise His disciples if He knew they would be in heaven with Him upon their death.
There are numerous threads on this forum dealing with the resurrection, the non-immortality of the soul and the fallacy of Luke 16:19-31, servant. I suggest you look at them.
The unsaved dead are shut out from the presence of the Lord in Hades and are conscious now of their punishment (Luke 16:23) and await final eternal torment when Hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). Thus Hades may be seen as the current abode of the unsaved dead.[/quote]
Hmm...Yeah. And other than Luke 16, what proof do you have of your interesting views?
The 'dead in Christ' are not dead if they are in God's presence right now. The Bible says that the 'dead in Christ will rise first'. They are 'dead in Christ' because they have the promise of eternal life and like Christ mentioned in Acts 2:34, God will not 'leave their souls in hell or suffer them to see corruption'. The dead in Christ rise from the graves, not come back conscious and re-inhabit them. The resurrection is useless and redundant if that is so.
The wicked are not in hell right now in punishment because their punishment occurs at the end of time. There is not two punishments. Again, you are using Luke 16 as your theological reference to interpret the rest of scriptures that don't support Luke 16.
The Bible says that the wicked are 'reserved unto the day of judgment to be punished'. They suffer the wages of sin which is death. They are not conscious anywhere at this time but await their resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20 where they are resurrected to judgment and then to their punishment.
The OT saints are awaiting the resurrection call as anticipated by Job, Daniel and David. Job 10:10-14, Acts 2:31-34; Daniel 12:1
Christ comes to make all things right and fulfill his promise He made in John 14:1-3. An interesting thing to promise His disciples if He knew they would be in heaven with Him upon their death.
There are numerous threads on this forum dealing with the resurrection, the non-immortality of the soul and the fallacy of Luke 16:19-31, servant. I suggest you look at them.
S
Servant_2000
Guest
quibox, you bust my chops everytime I write something. For one thing, everything I believe in comes from the Bible and the Bible alone. Not as some hodge podged Scholar, but as a theology student who happens to love the LORD, because the LORD has loved me first....
Secondly, I have placed you on IGNORE...you don't like what I have to say, then why don't you and your SDA cadret here, you know, Soma, Spuntnik, Jay T, ect...head on over to discuss your displeasures with christianity, with some of my friends....and take your false doctrines with you. They will be happy to discuss with you many of your ideas, because they have been there, and done that....then after a while come on back and discuss what freedom you have gained. Or what you have really learned.
http://www.formeradventist.com/discus
They will be happy to answer your questions for you.
BYE BYE...
Secondly, I have placed you on IGNORE...you don't like what I have to say, then why don't you and your SDA cadret here, you know, Soma, Spuntnik, Jay T, ect...head on over to discuss your displeasures with christianity, with some of my friends....and take your false doctrines with you. They will be happy to discuss with you many of your ideas, because they have been there, and done that....then after a while come on back and discuss what freedom you have gained. Or what you have really learned.
http://www.formeradventist.com/discus
They will be happy to answer your questions for you.
BYE BYE...
N
notapseudonym
Guest
First off I am far from a bible scholar.
Second: Christ's death transcends time just as the sin commited by Adam and Eve in the garden transcends time.
Christ's redmptive sacrifice applies to all men as does Adam's sin.
Second: Christ's death transcends time just as the sin commited by Adam and Eve in the garden transcends time.
Christ's redmptive sacrifice applies to all men as does Adam's sin.
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
servant_2000: quibox, you bust my chops everytime I write something. For one thing, everything I believe in comes from the Bible and the Bible alone. Not as some hodge podged Scholar, but as a theology student who happens to love the LORD, because the LORD has loved me first....
Secondly, I have placed you on IGNORE...you don't like what I have to say, then why don't you and your SDA cadret here, you know, Soma, Spuntnik, Jay T, ect...head on over to discuss your displeasures with christianity, with some of my friends....and take your false doctrines with you. They will be happy to discuss with you many of your ideas, because they have been there, and done that....then after a while come on back and discuss what freedom you have gained. Or what you have really learned.
Sputnik: One thing that I've learned over the years is not to award a merit badge to any disgruntled former 'anythings'. In my local SDA church the congregation is made up of a number of people of former denominations as well as long-term Adventists. They could probably tell 'appropriate' negatives about their former churches also. And, I would not be interested one iota in hearing about it.
So, the point is ...just because one is a former SDA - and quite possibly a disgruntled one at that - does not make them anything other than a disgruntled former SDA. The fact that such people have such an obsession for 'exposing' the SDA Church to begin with says more about them than the Church they are attempting to expose. Just think about it.
I've said this any number of times but I'll say it yet again. If an Adventist doctrine - or the doctrine of ANY denomination - doesn't pass the litmus test (i.e. does it align with scripture?) then it needs to be thrown out. Perhaps there ARE areas of Adventist doctrine that might be somewhat ambiguous and perhaps need to be thrown out. But then, the same could be said for ANY Christian denomination one could name. SDAs don't have the monopoly on questionable teachings. But, if anything, they have FAR LESS questionable teachings than those of mainstream Christianity.
Secondly, I have placed you on IGNORE...you don't like what I have to say, then why don't you and your SDA cadret here, you know, Soma, Spuntnik, Jay T, ect...head on over to discuss your displeasures with christianity, with some of my friends....and take your false doctrines with you. They will be happy to discuss with you many of your ideas, because they have been there, and done that....then after a while come on back and discuss what freedom you have gained. Or what you have really learned.
Sputnik: One thing that I've learned over the years is not to award a merit badge to any disgruntled former 'anythings'. In my local SDA church the congregation is made up of a number of people of former denominations as well as long-term Adventists. They could probably tell 'appropriate' negatives about their former churches also. And, I would not be interested one iota in hearing about it.
So, the point is ...just because one is a former SDA - and quite possibly a disgruntled one at that - does not make them anything other than a disgruntled former SDA. The fact that such people have such an obsession for 'exposing' the SDA Church to begin with says more about them than the Church they are attempting to expose. Just think about it.
I've said this any number of times but I'll say it yet again. If an Adventist doctrine - or the doctrine of ANY denomination - doesn't pass the litmus test (i.e. does it align with scripture?) then it needs to be thrown out. Perhaps there ARE areas of Adventist doctrine that might be somewhat ambiguous and perhaps need to be thrown out. But then, the same could be said for ANY Christian denomination one could name. SDAs don't have the monopoly on questionable teachings. But, if anything, they have FAR LESS questionable teachings than those of mainstream Christianity.
Where are the dead before Jesus died?
Abiyah: You quoted 1Pet.3:18-19.
Reading it in a literal translation " He was put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet made alive in spirit, in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also, He heralds to those once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited, in the days of Noah...."
Notice, He was put to death in flesh (the article 'the' is not in the originals), yet MADE ALIVE IN SPIRIT.
We are told Christ was crucified, and then made alive, resurrected, in spirit. So, He had his new spiritual body. And He went to hearald to the spirits in prison. What did He proclaim? I believe He proclaimed His resurrection.
As for "the spirits in prison", humans are never called "spirits" in the Bible.
These must be the angels who sinned, kept not their own position or sovereignty, as we are told in 2 Pet.2:4 and Jude 6. They have been thrust down to gloomy prison, being held with imperceptable chains until they are judged.
It appears to me that these sinning angels were the 'sons of God' who saw the daughters of Adam, that they were fair, and of them took wives, as we read in Genesis 6. Their offspring were the Nephilim, called heroes of old, warriors of renown. And this was during the times leading up to the flood.
To conclude: these spirits were not humans who died during the flood.
Man is a living soul, a free moving animated being. When he dies he ceases to exist until he is resurrected.
God bless you, Bick
Abiyah: You quoted 1Pet.3:18-19.
Reading it in a literal translation " He was put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet made alive in spirit, in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also, He heralds to those once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited, in the days of Noah...."
Notice, He was put to death in flesh (the article 'the' is not in the originals), yet MADE ALIVE IN SPIRIT.
We are told Christ was crucified, and then made alive, resurrected, in spirit. So, He had his new spiritual body. And He went to hearald to the spirits in prison. What did He proclaim? I believe He proclaimed His resurrection.
As for "the spirits in prison", humans are never called "spirits" in the Bible.
These must be the angels who sinned, kept not their own position or sovereignty, as we are told in 2 Pet.2:4 and Jude 6. They have been thrust down to gloomy prison, being held with imperceptable chains until they are judged.
It appears to me that these sinning angels were the 'sons of God' who saw the daughters of Adam, that they were fair, and of them took wives, as we read in Genesis 6. Their offspring were the Nephilim, called heroes of old, warriors of renown. And this was during the times leading up to the flood.
To conclude: these spirits were not humans who died during the flood.
Man is a living soul, a free moving animated being. When he dies he ceases to exist until he is resurrected.
God bless you, Bick