A tough salvation question!!!! (Bible Scholars only)

[Bick]

Where were the dead before the cross?

Moge: Jesus told the story of the rich man and the poor man because the Jewish leaders: Rabbis, Pharisees, etc, according to historian John Lightfoot, had come to believe that the dead actually had another body, which could see, feel, hear, be in pain, be thirsty, etc. These traditions brought in, probably from Babylon, were making void the teaching of Moses and the prophets regarding death. For instance:

Psa.6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol who can give you praise?"

Psa.30:9 "What profit will there be in my blood when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? Shall it declare thy truth?"

Psa.115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."

Eccl.8:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything."

This account is figurative, not literal. I'm sure there are a number of lessons Christ was teaching, the main one being the last verse, when after the rich man in torment asked if Lazarus could go tell the rich man's brothers. The answer was: "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead." Almost a prophecy of Christ's death and resurrection.

God bless you, Bick

 

[Servant_2000]

Back to the basic question...

In the times of the Old Testament, when the old covenant was in effect, people's sins were indeed covered. Forgiveness was only provisional, dependent on Christ's first coming.

Hebrews 11:39 NIV makes this clear: "These (Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc.) were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."

And in fact, these are the people -- the "before Christ came" people of faith, specifically, Abraham and David -- of whom Paul was speaking in Romans 4:1-8.

THEIR sins were covered, but only until Christ came. At that time ALL sins were forgiven by virtue of the cross. So Abraham's sins are no longer covered. And neither are yours and mine. They are -- REMOVED!

Psalm 103:12: “As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.â€Â

Isaiah 43:25: “I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions, for My own sake, and remembers your sins no more.â€Â

 

[Servant_2000]

servant_2000: quibox, you bust my chops everytime I write something. For one thing, everything I believe in comes from the Bible and the Bible alone. Not as some hodge podged Scholar, but as a theology student who happens to love the LORD, because the LORD has loved me first....

Secondly, I have placed you on IGNORE...you don't like what I have to say, then why don't you and your SDA cadret here, you know, Soma, Spuntnik, Jay T, ect...head on over to discuss your displeasures with christianity, with some of my friends....and take your false doctrines with you. They will be happy to discuss with you many of your ideas, because they have been there, and done that....then after a while come on back and discuss what freedom you have gained. Or what you have really learned.

Sputnik: One thing that I've learned over the years is not to award a merit badge to any disgruntled former 'anythings'. In my local SDA church the congregation is made up of a number of people of former denominations as well as long-term Adventists. They could probably tell 'appropriate' negatives about their former churches also. And, I would not be interested one iota in hearing about it.

So, the point is ...just because one is a former SDA - and quite possibly a disgruntled one at that - does not make them anything other than a disgruntled former SDA. The fact that such people have such an obsession for 'exposing' the SDA Church to begin with says more about them than the Church they are attempting to expose. Just think about it.

I've said this any number of times but I'll say it yet again. If an Adventist doctrine - or the doctrine of ANY denomination - doesn't pass the litmus test (i.e. does it align with scripture?) then it needs to be thrown out. Perhaps there ARE areas of Adventist doctrine that might be somewhat ambiguous and perhaps need to be thrown out. But then, the same could be said for ANY Christian denomination one could name. SDAs don't have the monopoly on questionable teachings. But, if anything, they have FAR LESS questionable teachings than those of mainstream Christianity.

Perhaps this is the reason many leave Adventism...

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." Galatians 5:1.

 

[Bick]

Did everyone who died before Jesus died go to Hell? Justify your answer.

The answer is NO! They are dead awaiting resurrection.

 

[Imagican]

The anwer is NO.

Christ freed ALL upon His death and reserection. That is the POINT of His death and rising.

Soma, I will offer this;

You have come to a realization that is NOT ENTIRELY able to be received as of yet. Don't 'cut off' the BENEFIT that has been 'given'.

Right now you 'feel' that you have been 'duped'. YOU HAVE. But there is a 'greater' truth that you appear to be avoiding. DON'T let this happen.

God IS REAL. A belief in Christ is NOT invalid EVEN THOUGH MOST that profess this 'belief' IS. There IS a 'greater' understanding than that which if offered through traditional teaching. There is MUCH MORE than what the 'churches' seem to 'grasp or teach'. You have been given the opportunity to 'tap in'. Don't allow this to bring into your life an 'undeserved' self-righteousness. Allow it to HELP YOU GROW.

You have been 'given' the oportunity that MANY will NEVER experience. Take it for 'what it's WORTH'. You can shun it ALL for the sake of that which you realize is 'false'. OR, you can USE THIS to HELP yourself and others.

You have SEEN 'truth'. NOW, LET THAT TRUTH lead you into a 'growth' that would NOT have been possible previous. For EVEN though the rudiments of the 'faith' that MOST follow are rooted in fables, there IS STILL truth to be found IN THE WORD.

You state that the Bible MUST be 'bogus' for it teaches to RAPE. WRONG. Even in the scripture that you offered it states that those that GOD chose to BE DESTROYED were DONE so at HIS DISCRETION. And by HIS RULES. Neither you nor I have any conception of WHY God chose to destroy these people. And the 'rape' to which you refer is NOT RAPE. It states that women COULD be taken as WIVES. There was MUCH tradition that was STILL mandatory. These were to BECOME a 'part' of a nation that was DIRECTLY under God's 'supervision', (if you will). While PREVIOUS, they were a part of a people that God had chosen to UTTERLY destroy. Sounds like MERCY if you ask me.

And Soma, even when given revelation directly from God, this does NOT make it POSSIBLE for US to understand the intricate workings of God INSTANTANEOUSLY. It takes TIME and effort to understand the 'total truth'.

But, let me offer a 'hint in the RIGHT direction' concerning UNDERSTANDING. The word LOVE is the MOST significant in the HUMAN, (or Spiritual), domain. Dwell HERE and there is MUCH to be gained. Allow the anger at the realization of your deception rule your future and it will be 'bleak' indeed.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, And DON'T forget, the HEARTS of men WILL BE JUDGED. Not ONLY their 'faith' in a 'religion', BUT THEIR VERY HEARTS. And THIS pertains to ALL men, (and women, he he he). Time has NO BEARING on this 'truth'.

MEC

 

[Solo]

Oh, And DON'T forget, the HEARTS of men WILL BE JUDGED. Not ONLY their 'faith' in a 'religion', BUT THEIR VERY HEARTS. And THIS pertains to ALL men, (and women, he he he). Time has NO BEARING on this 'truth'.

MEC

Mankind is condemned already and is already eternally judged at death. Those who are born again, born of God have been given eternal life, those who are not born again, have received their condemnation.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:16-18

 

[Imagican]

Solo,


What you have stated is 'of 'a' truth'. For mankind IS 'condemned' to death.

But, we also have scripture that PLAINLY states that upon 'judgement DAY', EACH will be judged acording to their INDIVIDUAL sins or 'acts'.

You don't DENY that there WILL be 'further judgement'? Judgement 'made' on an INDIVIDUAL basis? For even those that have ALREADY been 'determined' to DIE, will be offered UNDERSTANDING of this 'death' upon their 'final judgement'.

MEC

 

[Solo]

Solo,


What you have stated is 'of 'a' truth'. For mankind IS 'condemned' to death.

But, we also have scripture that PLAINLY states that upon 'judgement DAY', EACH will be judged acording to their INDIVIDUAL sins or 'acts'.

You don't DENY that there WILL be 'further judgement'? Judgement 'made' on an INDIVIDUAL basis? For even those that have ALREADY been 'determined' to DIE, will be offered UNDERSTANDING of this 'death' upon their 'final judgement'.

MEC

What will the judgment be concerning those that have been given eternal life at the moment of being born again; and what will the judgment be concerning those that have not been born again and are condemned already?

 

[Jeffrey1188]

In the old testiment, people (Abraham for example), We're justified by following the Law, making sacrifies (part of the law), etc. THEN Jesus "fulfilled the Law", making the Ultimate sacrifice. So God's faithful before Christ that did what God told them to do. Also, as from what i can remember in the OT, God only spoke to people who "knew him" and sent messengers (Moses for ex) to the rest. If, perhaps, ALL people at that time were headed to Hell, would not God be indescrimanent in who he spoke to? Just a thought.

So I've drawn the conclusion that the people before Jesus probably arent all sentenced to eternal Hell. They were justified by following God and what his law told them to do. Then Jesus came, fulfilled the Law, and changed things. Now the Law, though it was still applicable, isnt really prevelent. The word became flesh, and died for all sins... So thats how WE are saved after Christ.

-Jeff

 

[Diolectic]

Did everyone who died before Jesus died go to Hell? Justify your answer.

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

 

[jgredline]

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Diolectic
Great verse and welcome to the board..

 

[Fnerb]

Did everyone who died before Jesus died go to Hell? Justify your answer.

Not sure if this scripture has been posted yet, but what about Romans 4?

Romans 4:3 - What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

and then in Romans 4:23-24

The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousnessâ€â€for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

This would tell me that Abraham was righteouss through the same means we are, by the belief in Jesus Christ.

 

[Fnerb]

Edit: Double post by mistake.

 

[jgredline]

FYI Soma-Sight is no longer with us....He has been sent on vacation ......

 

[Bick]

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Diolectic, Pulling that one text out of it context can be misleading.

Let's look at the context, starting at verse 23:

"The same day came to him the Saducees, which say there is no resurrection."
OK, they are trying to trick Jesus with a hypothetical case of a woman marrying 7 different brothers, one at a time after each died.
So, they ask, 'In the resurrection whose wife shall she be?'

Mind now, resurrection is the topic of conversation.

And Jesus answers them, (29) "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor or given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." AV.

(31) "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB? God is not the God of the dead, but the living" AV.

HOW can Jesus say this? Because God, who sees the end from the beginning, sees them resurrected and alive, even though it is in the future.

It is further explained in Luke 20:37-38: But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." NIV.

Since all aren't alive, God sees the future when all shall live.

Bick