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A Very Mean Elisha?

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Veritas

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This question came up in another thread. It is in regards to what Elisha did in 2 Kings...

Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!†When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number. And he went from there to Mount Carmel, and from there he returned to Samaria. 2 Kings 2:23-25

Orion said:
Kinda goes against the "love your enemies" of the New Testament.

But what were the other circumstances that made it okay for these youth to be mauled to death by a bear?

To start this out... Elisha pronounced a curse similar to the covenant curse of Levitcus 26:21-22

"If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted."

There were 42 people mauled... that means there were probably more in the crowd (according to the Hebrew word used for "youth", these were people who were between the ages of 12-30). Who knows how many more were in the mass demonstration but is was a direct confrontation between the forces of Baal and the prophet of God that had just healed the water supply (casting doubt on the power and beneficence of Baal).
 
How did you come up with 12-30?
The same word is used for Joseph and Joshua but I don't know what age they were when the reference was made. I'm just curious where the numbers 12-30 came from.
 
I heard a really good teaching on this a while back and I wish I could find it! If I can find something similar I will post it.
The key is in..
but is was a direct confrontation between the forces of Baal and the prophet of God
God is fearful and Holy- and also Just. His ways can go against the humanistic type of "love" we are indoctrinated in, in society.
 
Potluck said:
How did you come up with 12-30?

I was trusting some other research by christians on these sites....

http://thethirstygargoyle.blogspot.com/ ... th-me.html

http://www.ukapologetics.net/07/elishah1.htm

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qmeanelisha.html

From what I read, I think the age range is partially determined from the range assumed for an army in 1 Kings 20:14-15 where the word is used. Along with when it was used for Joseph and Isaac.

Oh... another interesting thing these sites bring up is that Elisha lived sixty years after this incident. So he was probably in his twenties, and around the same age as his hecklers.
 
Cool.
Little tidbits like that fascinate me. :)

Anyway one must also remember things were much different socially then than it is today.
The most prevailing goal was to continue the family line. Sons born was a big event. And with the mortality rate of that era a son's death was more than just a tragic loss, it was a family disaster especially if there was only one that survived birth and infancy. The family generations didn't change beliefs as a rule, being taught from one generation to another. Their culture was their beliefs, their beliefs their culture, based on their practices and rituals. Solidly.
I can well imagine not a few family lines were disrupted. Bethel wasn't exactly a God fearing city either. And though we're not told if those families were of the ruling class or not I'm not going to discount the possiblity.
We just don't think "family line" these days. It's an alien concept to us.
 
At first reading this story seems to suggest that a 'man of God' deliberately used the power of God to wreak a horrible death upon some smart-alecky kids. Sure the kids shouldn't have been mocking, but come on? Death by bear?

However, as has been established, Elisha and the crowd (and it was quite a crowd) were all in the same age range, which puts a different spin on this.

First of all, it wasn't part of the 'job description' of the prophet of God to be a gentle shepherd of innocent sheep. It was a rough time, and the squabbles between those who followed Jehovia and those who followed Baal often resulted in the death of somebody. Elijah had earned respect, but it was a hard road for him, especially when the queen was out for his head.

Now, Elijah is gone and Elisha, a young man who obviously had some doubts of his own ability to handle the job (see vs 9) is responsible for speaking God's mind to the nation, a thankless and dangerous task. He had already faced a situation where the sons of the prophets, perhaps not recognizing his authority yet, shamed him into sending a futile search party out for Elijah. Now, as he is leaving Jericho a mob of adolescents start mocking him.

(Oh, and I do read this incident as taking place in Jericho, as Elisha is leaving for Bethel. But, I could be wrong about that.)

This was far more than a personal insult. The mocking not only showed a lack of respect for Elisha, it was evidence that folks were not accepting Elisha as God's choosen successor to Elijah. And, it was also evidence that the folks were losing respect and fear of God as well. Elisha needed to act on this, and he needed to act decisively and in a way that confirmed that God had established him as Elijah's successor.

Thus he cursed them in the name of the Lord. After that, he left it up to God as to what would happen next.

What happened next was that some bears came out of the woods and started mauling the crowd. Nowhere does the text say that anyone died here, just that the bears mauled 42 of the crowd. Being mauled by a bear isn't necessarily fatal, and most likely if anyone had actually been killed, the story would have recorded it.

So, we really can't say that Elisha did anything here other than call a curse down upon the unruly mob. According to the story, it was an act of God that caused the bears to show up. Was God justified in taking such a step?

I think so. Again, far more was at stake here than Elisha's feelings about hair-loss. The nation was being split and the people were turning away from God to follow the horrible local god Baal. The nation itself was primed for invasion (and they eventually were invaded). The bear incident established that God did recognize Elisha as His prophet and that He expected Elisha to be treated with the respect the office demanded, which was higher than the office of king. It was going to be Elisha's job to get the king to obey God. If a mob of smart-mouthed, disrespectful youth could get by with mocking Elisha's authority, then why on earth would a king take him seriously?
 
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=827

Elisha is Mocked
(2:23b)
“Young lads.†The KJV has “little children†which really misses the meaning here. These were not children, but young men. The word “lads†is the Hebrew naar and was used of servants, of soldiers and of Isaac when he was 28 years old. This was a crowd of young men, perhaps students of the false prophets, who were here as antagonists to Elisha’s prophetic ministry and authority. If not students, they were sent by the false prophets or idolatrous priests of Bethel to stop Elisha from entering the city. In Elisha Satan had an enemy and he was acting to protect his territory. Remember, however, Elisha was going to Bethel not to curse, but to bless.

“Came out of the city and mocked him . . . Go up, you baldhead.†“Mocked†is the Hebrew galas and denotes a scornful belittling of something or someone, but it issues from an attitude which counts as valueless that which is really of great value.

Leaders have always had to deal with disrespect. It is seen throughout the Old Testament and it is found in the New Testament as well. But the greatest disrespect here is in relation to God. These young men, undoubtedly under Satan’s influence, were attacking not just Elisha, the man, but they were also attacking his message. But the issue was, regardless of the personality of the man, his physical appearance, or even his short comings, Elisha was God’s man with God’s message. As a result, in the final analysis they were mocking or rejecting God and what He was attempting to do through Elisha as God’s spokesman. Elisha was simply an instrument of God (cf. 2 Thess. 5:12, 13 “on account of the workâ€Â). The work referred to in 1 Thessalonians is God’s work--the work of building men in the Word and in Christ through these men. And there is a certain sense in which this applies to all believers.

The attack of these young men is twofold:

(1) “Go upâ€Â… “go up.†That is, ascend up as you claim Elijah did. The translation of Elijah was a miracle of God and portrayed the biblical truth and hope of the translation of the saints. Though Old Testament saints did not understand this, it was still a type of this truth. Elisha was a prophet of God and by doing this these young men were denying the work of God, denying the Word of God and God’s actions in history.

(2) The second aspect of the attack is seen in the words: “you baldhead.†Whether Elisha was actually bald, or whether he had a different hairstyle, i.e., cropped short on top, they were ridiculing the prophet and telling him to get lost like Elijah. Krummacher writes:

Baldness was regarded by the lower orders as a kind of disgrace; for as it was one of the usual consequences of leprosy, so it was accounted a sign of personal and mental degradation. Hence, in using this opprobrious epithet, the young profligates had a most malicious intention. Their expressions are not to be viewed as a mere burst of youthful wantonness; but as poisoned arrows, pointed and directed by refined and satanic malignity. It is as if they had said, “Thou effeminate leper! Thou would-be prophet! We fear thee not! Go up! Go up!†as if they mean, “Imitate thy master!†. . . It seems to have been a scoffing allusion to the ascent of Elijah; partly sceptical, and partly in derision of Elisha . . . 20

These attacks are typical of the schemes and methods by which Satan seeks to nullify the ministry of God’s saints and the work of God. He attacks the message (the Word) and the messenger or both. He seeks to discourage or discredit the teacher or he attacks those hearing the message. Regarding the messenger, Satan may seek to call attention to petty issues, circumstances, misunderstandings, or focus on personalities, or physical appearance. It can be almost anything, but whatever, it is a means to a beachhead from whence he seeks to launch one attack after another to get people’s eyes off the Lord and their ears closed to His Word. We must be careful that we do not cooperate with Satan and throw fuel on his fires.

The important thing here is Elisha’s reaction to this and God’s action in response. This is designed to emphasize to us the seriousness of the issues here.

Elisha Curses the Young Men
(2:24a)
This seems harsh, but God and His leaders have, on occasion, acted harshly in order to impress upon man the seriousness of life and the Word of God. Ananias and Saphira are an illustration of this in the New Testament.

(1) What Elisha did not do: Before looking at what Elisha did, let’s consider for a moment what he did not do! (a) He did not turn and run. (b) He did not argue with them or run after them (Matt 7:6). (c) He did not compromise his message. (d) He was not acting or reacting out of self love or anxiety or self-defense from the standpoint of his ego or pride. (e) He did not complain to the Lord or want to throw in the towel. (f) He simply ignored their words, actions, and attitudes. God’s response proves this.

What does this teach us? When trouble strikes, we should never resort to the solutions of the world, i.e., to human viewpoint escape or defense tactics (cf. Ps. 143:11-12; 147:10-11).

(2) What Elisha did: Elisha took up his armor, “He cursed them in the name of the Lord.†This is not cursing for cursing or reviling for reviling (1 Pet. 2:23). He was trusting in the Lord and leaving it in God’s hands. The key here is in the word “curse.†It does not mean to swear with vile words. This is the Hebrew word galal meaning “be swift, slight, trifling, or of little account.†The primary meaning is “to be light or slight.†Both verb and noun forms seem to represent a formula which expresses a removal or lowering from the place of blessing.

Cursing stands in contrast to the word blessing or favor (cf. Gen. 27:11, 12). The emphasis is on the absence, reversal, or removal of a blessed state or rightful position which brings God’s protection, provision and blessing. The principle is very simple: without God’s blessed salvation and protection we all stand cursed. The moment God removed His wall of protection from Job, Satan attacked him and wrecked havoc in Job’s life.

So Elisha, as a prophet, saw their hardened and rebellious condition, unresponsive to correction. In the name of the Lord (i.e. by His authority) Elisha simply turned them over to the Lord and to their own devises, which had the effect of removing them from even the common protection of God. He probably said something like, “may God deal with you according to what you deserve,†or “may you be cursed for your sins of rebellion.†This would demonstrate to the city and to people all around a vital truth: without the Lord there is no protection and that blasphemy of God’s servants and His Word in order to hinder God’s message is serious business. Note that Elisha did not call out the bears, God did. Two female bears (not three bears--papa bear, mamma bear, and baby bear) came out and tore up forty-two young men.

You would think this would strike the fear of God into the hearts of the entire area for years to come. But no--the heart of man is such that they either ignore it, reject it, or soon forget it.

Conclusion
God does not take it lightly when we ignore His Word or hinder its propagation in the world among His people. This is serious business (cf. 1 Cor 3:16-17 with 10; 11:30).

As believers, we should expect opposition. The more we move out for the Lord, the more attacks we may have to face from our adversary through his various schemes (cf. 1 Pet 4:10-12). As Paul stated it in 2 Timothy 3:12, “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Chrst Jesus will be persecuted†(NIV).

We need more Elishas, those who will stand fast and act in biblical ways leaving the results to the Lord. This is precisely what Paul did in connection with the strong criticism often leveled at him by some of the Corinthians (cf. 1 Cor. 4:1f). As with Elisha and Paul, we need to move forward in our ministries while always trusting God to make a way and remove the obstacles.
 
Hey handy. We've seen what you describe before. Pharoah and Moses. Through curses suffered by Pharoah God established His authority through Moses.
 
Go upâ€Â… “go up.†That is, ascend up as you claim Elijah did. The translation of Elijah was a miracle of God and portrayed the biblical truth and hope of the translation of the saints. Though Old Testament saints did not understand this, it was still a type of this truth. Elisha was a prophet of God and by doing this these young men were denying the work of God, denying the Word of God and God’s actions in history.

That is the correct interpretation of the idiom. They were not ignorant children having a game, they were willingly taunting the prophet of God for who he was, and they received a punishment promised in the Law of Moses, that wild animals would bereave Israel of their children if they were disobedient.

~Josh
 
I fail to see how the apologists explanations (valid or invalid) extenuate the atrociousness. Whether they were little kids or grown men, the curse and subsequent approval by Yahweh to maul and kill those people is still heinous.

Apologists will rationalize or explain away anything. I find that very disturbing.

Thanks,
~Eric
 
wavy, I'm curious... there is death all around us... it happens all the time... does this seem heinous of God to you?
 
wavy said:
I fail to see how the apologists explanations (valid or invalid) extenuate the atrociousness. Whether they were little kids or grown men, the curse and subsequent approval by Yahweh to maul and kill those people is still heinous.

Apologists will rationalize or explain away anything. I find that very disturbing.

Thanks,
~Eric

How is this any worse than God authorizing men to execute false prophets with swords (Jehu did this)? Upon the assumption that God exists, then God has right and the position of ruler and his judicial orders should be carried out just as an earthly King's - and since God can weigh the heart (something you cannot do in a court of law) He is justified in that he knows more about the true guiltiness or innocence of a person than any court of law could ever determine. Because of that there is an expanded criteria for Judgement. It's the theme of God's soveriegnty - all through out the Bible. It doesn't always make sense to us, but it hinges upon the righteous character of God.

~Josh
 
Veritas said:
wavy, I'm curious... there is death all around us... it happens all the time... does this seem heinous of God to you?

To an omnipotent and loving god who might exist? Yes. But I do not believe in such gods (or any god).


Thanks,
~Eric
 
cybershark5886 said:
How is this any worse than God authorizing men to execute false prophets with swords (Jehu did this)?

It isn't any worse. Such barbaric acts by a supposedly omnipotent and loving creator are equally heinous.

Upon the assumption that God exists...

Exactly. Enough said.

Thanks,
~Eric
 
wavy said:
I fail to see how the apologists explanations (valid or invalid) extenuate the atrociousness. Whether they were little kids or grown men, the curse and subsequent approval by Yahweh to maul and kill those people is still heinous.

Apologists will rationalize or explain away anything. I find that very disturbing.

Thanks,
~Eric
Eric,
What if God has a plan to reconcile all things unto Himself, even the lives of these young people in Elisha's day. Imagine the 500,000 who died in Burma and 50,000 in China recently, being brought together in Christ in the next age. Imagine there really is a God of love. Unfortunately, you will need to communicate PM, if you want to further our discussion due to restriction.
Grace, Bubba
 
wavy said:
Veritas said:
wavy, I'm curious... there is death all around us... it happens all the time... does this seem heinous of God to you?

To an omnipotent and loving god who might exist? Yes.

ok. I just wanted to get at the core of the issue. Because until the view above is changed, absolutely everything in the Bible (and life) will be heinous of God by default. No matter the particular topic in Bible we pick, you will have the same objection... so this topic doesn't really "stick out" anyways.

wavy said:
But I do not believe in such gods (or any god).

But you do believe in the concept of "heinous". If there is "heinous", then there is also something that is "virtuous". You have a rule, a law, that you are measuring things by. Do you think this law you are using applies to all people?

Wavy, by the way... I just got a new page. Bubba made a post to you in the previous page, you should make sure to look at it too. ...Sorry Bubba... I'm always frustrated when that happens to me. :)
 

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