A Weekend in Hell

[Razeontherock]

The OP 1 Peter 3v19:20 is the clearest description of what happened to Jesus. His body was in the tomb, HIS Spirit was in Hell preaching to the disobedient souls. I wonder what was the theme of His sermon? We can only guess or speculate.

Anyway at end of the service, He didn't stay for tea and biscuits but burst out! Next job was to see Mary Magdalene. She had sneaked off to the tomb, according to John 20:1 it was still dark and so still Sabbath, so she could have got into trouble but she couldn't wait to go and complete the embalming of her beloved Lord. What's interesting is His request -
Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ” John 20:17 NKJV. So sometime between seeing Mary and revealing himself to Thomas where He invites Thomas to actually touch His hands and side, Jesus goes to see His father God, though we're not told why. Lots of questions; one day we'll know the answers for sure.

Another verse telling us where Jesus spent that weekend-
Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.” (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:8‭-‬10 NKJV.

Of course we know why Jesus went to see His Father between Mary and Thomas. Like everything else, OT types and shadows teach us more about Christ than the NT does, but the NT makes plain what we really need to know. Including that Jesus is our High Priest!

You also have Him preaching to disobedient "souls." This gets confusing, since not all versions speak of soul vs spirit the same way; some versions are also sloppy, using both words interchangeably. We have both. If we are to use those words such that Angels are Spirit, (I've never heard Angels referred to as souls) then it makes quite a difference if Jesus preached to disobedient souls or spirits, but it still isn't definitive. Which is fine, because no one passage is definitive standing by itself anyway. It needs the whole of Scripture, and there are always two or three witnesses within Scripture itself to establish anything God really intends to say.

We know what the High Priest does after the sacrifice is complete. This speaks to the anomaly you noted between Mary and Thomas. We do not know about His descent into hell, or Paradise, and/ or gehenna. How could we? This might be 'across the border' of what our finite mortal minds can comprehend, which does have its limits. There is certainly a limit to what we can know from Scripture, and I think this factoid is one that leaves some mystery.

Even so, we see Jesus arise having the keys to death and hell. What we have translated as hell here is specifically the abode of the wicked, so I don't see how Jesus does that without at least a visit to conquer it. We are not specifically told.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Well, you haven replied to me boot I do have one important mistake you make in the post above that you suggest Jesus died on Thursday or three days had nothing to do with the death of Him. Jesus used the Jewish clock to define a day. The Jewish day when Paleo Hebrew was spoken began at 6pm and any part of a day caused that day to be counted. Jesus was murdered at the Sacrifice on Friday, possibly late afternoon but that was day one in the tomb and day two was Saturday followed by, most likely, a few hours of what we would call Saturday night and the Ancient Hebrew knew as Sunday Night because they used the scriptures of Genesis one to define a day the way YHWH does... there was evening and there was morning.

That is how they were counted then so any part of Friday was one and and if He rose at seven pm that would have counted to them as day three.

 

[Razeontherock]

Well, you haven replied to me boot I do have one important mistake you make in the post above that you suggest Jesus died on Thursday or three days had nothing to do with the death of Him. Jesus used the Jewish clock to define a day. The Jewish day when Paleo Hebrew was spoken began at 6pm and any part of a day caused that day to be counted. Jesus was murdered at the Sacrifice on Friday, possibly late afternoon but that was day one in the tomb and day two was Saturday followed by, most likely, a few hours of what we would call Saturday night and the Ancient Hebrew knew as Sunday Night because they used the scriptures of Genesis one to define a day the way YHWH does... there was evening and there was morning.

That is how they were counted then so any part of Friday was one and and if He rose at seven pm that would have counted to them as day three.

Who are you referring to here? This accounting of time is of course correct. I do hold Jesus' descent into hell to begin in the garden on what we consider Thursday night, but in Jewish Scripture (which the Gospels are) that is Friday. Come to think of it even at the Last Supper, pointing out His betrayer may have been bitter enough to be hellish.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Who are you referring to here? This accounting of time is of course correct. I do hold Jesus' descent into hell to begin in the garden on what we consider Thursday night, but in Jewish Scripture (which the Gospels are) that is Friday. Come to think of it even at the Last Supper, pointing out His betrayer may have been bitter enough to be hellish.

I'm sorry, I must have quoted your post but I was speaking to Andrew.

 

[Winnie]

I like to think He did preach to those who died who were not in hell or heaven yet.
That's the only thing that makes sense in that paragraph really.

 

[Andyintheuk]

.


Eph. 4:9 1Pet 3:18-20
You have already mentioned the verses in Matt 27 and when combined with the two above as well as the story of Lazarus and the rich man explains what happened to the Old Testament Saints.

This Mistake of yours, thinking that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Isaiah and thousands, likely billions of Former Saints. It clearly goes against the teachings and promises of Jesus because He clearly teaches Eternal Life for the Believer. This errant theology did not come from the Holy Spirit because He never disagrees with the scriptures.

I am concerned for you because it is so eeasy go enter at the wrong gate.

Taylor, what comes out of your post loud and clear is your passion for the Bible. I hope that at least one Christian's curiosity is piqued, there are too many Christian who for no good reason never touch it. To me that's like never changing the oil in your can; it i'nt going to run too well for too long.

Anyway back to your points. You disagree with my understanding of the the fate of the Old Testament saints without saying what your view is and giving chapter and verse authority to support your views. I'm intrigued to hear them.

Any theory (and that's all it can be until we finally go upstairs ourselves because the Bible is not clear on this at all) must include Jesus. Any other theory implies that there is a 2nd way into Heaven. Jesus tells us that He's the only way in -
I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. John 10:9 NKJV

No, the Old Testament saints had to believe in Jesus, keeping the law was insufficient, one slip-up and you're out!

Abraham believed in God's plan of redemption-
What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Romans 4:1‭-‬3 NKJV

At end of the day this is all speculation, we can try to second guess God's righteous judgement on questions like this and others like the fate of those who die in infancy. We do know that we have a loving, righteous God who gets His judgements right every time, therefore we don't need an appeals process.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Romans 4:1‭-‬3 NKJV

My apologies for kind of getting into this. But I couldn't help but wonder why do many Churches often quote the verse you quote Andy that “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” What about the second part of the deal(?) where Abraham agreed to take his son Isaac up the mountain to sacrifice ( murder?) his son Isaac according to Genesis 22. This incident gives me the goosebumps, each time I read and it underscores how obedient and trusting Abraham was. Kind of epitome of obedience. This is seldom pointed out. It's so easy to believe ( only).....
I wonder if God would ask us Christians to do that --- sacrifice a son---- how many of us will agree? And what will God's reaction be to that? In all fairness when churches teach that Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness, they must also point out Abraham's incredible trust and obedience. I believe God took that also into account before crediting Him with righteousness for "believing" . That believing had plenty of obedience as a component. Abraham, according to the Biblical account ( Gen 22) does not even as " But why Lord?" . He just did what God asked him to do. I believe God loves Abrahams who not only believed but obeyed and not those Abrahams who just believed and..... quoted scriptures

Genesis 22: 1-5
Sometime later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!”

“Here I am,” he replied.

Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”

Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about.
On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance.
He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”

 

[Razeontherock]

My apologies for kind of getting into this. But I couldn't help but wonder why do many Churches often quote the verse you quote Andy that “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” What about the second part of the deal(?) where Abraham agreed to take his son Isaac up the mountain to sacrifice ( murder?) his son Isaac according to Genesis 22. This incident gives me the goosebumps, each time I read and it underscores how obedient and trusting Abraham was. Kind of epitome of obedience. This is seldom pointed out. It's so easy to believe ( only).....
I wonder if God would ask us Christians to do that --- sacrifice a son---- how many of us will agree? And what will God's reaction be to that? In all fairness when churches teach that Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness, they must also point out Abraham's incredible trust and obedience. I believe God took that also into account before crediting Him with righteousness for "believing" . That believing had plenty of obedience as a component. Abraham, according to the Biblical account ( Gen 22) does not even as " But why Lord?" . He just did what God asked him to do. I believe God loves Abrahams who not only believed but obeyed and not those Abrahams who just believed and..... quoted scriptures

Genesis 22: 1-5
Sometime later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!”

“Here I am,” he replied.

Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”

Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about.
On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance.
He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”

This is of course all true about Abraham, and when people erroneously claim that our theological term "Faith" means nothing more than what a modern dictionary says, this is a useful story to help illustrate just how wrong that is.

What about Isaac? He barely gets a mention in passing. Consider the Faith of Isaac!! I don't care what age he was, he could've taken his old man out. Yet he never raised a hand against his father. Not when the knife was drawn, not even when the knife was raised?!? What a giant of Faith!
Without his critical contribution of demonstrating his Faith by his inaction, the story we have would read rather differently, such that we'd likely not have this family's story at all.

I think there's a valid parallel between Isaac and that Sabbath that Jesus spent in the tomb; the only 24 hour day He spent in the tomb.

What I find really amazing about Isaac is he didn't even need to have his name changed to do this, whereas both his father and son DID need God to intervene and change their nature as well as their names for them to be able to walk out their Faith. And no those two did not do more than Isaac, because greater love has no man than this, that he should lay down his life for his friends.

 

[Andyintheuk]

This is of course all true about Abraham, and when people erroneously claim that our theological term "Faith" means nothing more than what a modern dictionary says, this is a useful story to help illustrate just how wrong that is.

What about Isaac? He barely gets a mention in passing. Consider the Faith of Isaac!! I don't care what age he was, he could've taken his old man out. Yet he never raised a hand against his father. Not when the knife was drawn, not even when the knife was raised?!? What a giant of Faith!
Without his critical contribution of demonstrating his Faith by his inaction, the story we have would read rather differently, such that we'd likely not have this family's story at all.

I think there's a valid parallel between Isaac and that Sabbath that Jesus spent in the tomb; the only 24 hour day He spent in the tomb.

What I find really amazing about Isaac is he didn't even need to have his name changed to do this, whereas both his father and son DID need God to intervene and change their nature as well as their names for them to be able to walk out their Faith. And no those two did not do more than Isaac, because greater love has no man than this, that he should lay down his life for his friends.

I've often thought about Isaac. When we talk about God being the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Isaac does tend to get glossed over, presumably because he favoured Esau who was eventually disgraced when he showed contempt for his inheritance, trading it for a bowl of pottage. But you're right, that poor child could have been scarred for life. An in depth study of Isaac would be very interesting.

I wonder if Abraham knew he'd just performed a dress rehearsal for Christ's crucifixion?

 

[chessman]

I wonder if Abraham knew he'd just performed a dress rehearsal for Christ's crucifixion?

Evidently.

Abraham your father rejoiced-greatly to see My day. And he saw it, and was glad”.​

John 8:56 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 8:56&version=DLNT

This was true prior to Jesus’s crucifixion and resurrection.

 

[Andyintheuk]

I like to think He did preach to those who died who were not in hell or heaven yet.
That's the only thing that makes sense in that paragraph really.

I'm sure you're right Winnie, His Spirit left His body and went to Hell. It's logical because Jesus had to take the whole of our punishment, not just the 1st half, a painful death on the cross but all the way, right into Hell itself. There according to 1 Peter 3:19 He preached to the disobedient before exiting to complete His resurrection. If you bear in mind that Jesus is as holy as God, that 2nd part would have been worse than the 1st. He did both willingly to rescue us and bring us with Him to present us before God in Heaven. Thank you Jesus, thank you God.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Taylor, what comes out of your post loud and clear is your passion for the Bible. I hope that at least one Christian's curiosity is piqued, there are too many Christian who for no good reason never touch it. To me that's like never changing the oil in your can; it i'nt going to run too well for too long.

Anyway back to your points. You disagree with my understanding of the the fate of the Old Testament saints without saying what your view is and giving chapter and verse authority to support your views. I'm intrigued to hear them.

Any theory (and that's all it can be until we finally go upstairs ourselves because the Bible is not clear on this at all) must include Jesus. Any other theory implies that there is a 2nd way into Heaven. Jesus tells us that He's the only way in -
I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. John 10:9 NKJV

No, the Old Testament saints had to believe in Jesus, keeping the law was insufficient, one slip-up and you're out!

Abraham believed in God's plan of redemption-
What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Romans 4:1‭-‬3 NKJV

At end of the day this is all speculation, we can try to second guess God's righteous judgement on questions like this and others like the fate of those who die in infancy. We do know that we have a loving, righteous God who gets His judgements right every time, therefore we don't need an appeals process.

Brother, I did in that post. I used the same verse in Matthew and coupled them with the verses at the top of the post.

 

[ezra]

His Spirit left His body and went to Hell. It's logical because Jesus had to take the whole of our punishment, not just the 1st half, a painful death on the cross but all the way, right into Hell itself.

that remark is so far out in left field that is where it will stay Jesus never went to hell for punishment for our sins

 

[Razeontherock]

Evidently.

Abraham your father rejoiced-greatly to see My day. And he saw it, and was glad”.​

John 8:56 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 8:56&version=DLNT

This was true prior to Jesus’s crucifixion and resurrection.

Further yet: God having given our species dominion, somebody had to be willing to effectively do what Jesus did in will fully submitting to crucifixion. Isaac did so. This is a topic nobody ever discusses or questions, but it is a key component of the entire plan of Salvation: if Jesus stepped into our world as God and did what no human had ever done, He would have violated our dominion, over riding it, and effectively taking it back. I know some aren't ready to entertain the thought and that's ok, but it further illustrates how incredibly Merciful God is ... Isaac demonstrated his willingness and that was enough. He was spared. Jesus demonstrated His willingness and fulfilled all the horror of bearing the sins of the world, as well as fulfilling all the OT sacrifices such that they were rendered unnecessary.

Then He went and harrowed hell itself! And the next thing He did was to call Mary, the first preacher, by name.

What a Savior! What a plan!

 

[ezra]

He went and harrowed hell itself!

sorry disagree the only hell was the tomb/grave..

 

[Razeontherock]

that remark is so far out in left field that is where it will stay Jesus never went to hell for punishment for our sins

So far out in left field it's in the Creeds!

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh boy. The things the human mind can conjure up when the context of the Whole Bible is not to the read, LORD. A few Topical Studies from the Nave's Topical Bible(Cheep and available free on the web) or having read through the Bible a few times under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit and one will discover the Creeds are not scripture and some of their points were the imaginings of the Human Mind. Jesus did not descend into Hell, not Hell as we know it. In Luke 16:19-31 we see that Jesus, who never named people in his parables, teaches us there are two locations and neither is His home.

They are Hell and Paradise. The Lost are waiting for the final Resurrection and the Saved from the Old Testament are in Paradise, waiting for the Messiah, Jesus, to take them to heaven and to close Paradise. In Matthew 27, verse fifty-one or fifty through about fifty-three or four, we find the Old Testament Saints running through the Holy City. Where was Abraham and the others going? The generally accepted thought is Jesus had preached the Gospel to them and was escorting them to Heaven and they were seen for a testimony of what we are to expect for ourselves, we will not expire, none of us.

This is also my understanding.
The creed that says that Jesus descended into hell is no longer used because it is now believed that Jesus never went to hell to preach, but to Abraham's Bossom to bring out those that were waiting, as you've said.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Taylor, what comes out of your post loud and clear is your passion for the Bible. I hope that at least one Christian's curiosity is piqued, there are too many Christian who for no good reason never touch it. To me that's like never changing the oil in your can; it i'nt going to run too well for too long.

I agree but I believe you would need to understand my history to understand, having been an entertainer, I owe Yashua more than most converts.

Anyway back to your points. You disagree with my understanding of the the fate of the Old Testament saints without saying what your view is and giving chapter and verse authority to support your views. I'm intrigued to hear them.

I'm sorry you seem to not have understood but I did give the scriptures. The two at the head of the post added to your Matthew verses are the bases The Spirit used in teaching me on this point.

Any theory (and that's all it can be until we finally go upstairs ourselves because the Bible is not clear on this at all) must include Jesus. Any other theory implies that there is a 2nd way into Heaven. Jesus tells us that He's the only way in -
I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. John 10:9 NKJV

I'm sorry but Yashuah, a.k.a. Jesus, is a historically provable fact a is the the period of darkness, as night, in the day time extended as far as Rome where one of their Histoirians recorded the out of place event occurred, even in Rome. When I debated Christian Apologetics I kept my copy of the Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics at my side and could give you the names and location of their statements but a younger man recorded the out of place event occurred, even in Rome. When I debated Christian Apologetics but a considerably younger man surrendered to preach and I gave several volumes including that one.

No, the Old Testament saints had to believe in Jesus, keeping the law was insufficient, one slip-up and you're out!

And I have indicated that is true, all I'm contending is that they were not in Hell but rather were in Paradise, neither Hell nor Heaven and I used the so called parable of Christ where the Poor Man wa in Paradise and the Rich Man was in Hell, wantint a drop of water. I did not include the address to this, thinking it common knowledge and well known, my bad. (Luke 16:19-31) Many consider this to be a parable but I and some others believe it to be truth because in none of the parables name a person.

At end of the day this is all speculation, we can try to second guess God's righteous judgement on questions like this and others like the fate of those who die in infancy. We do know that we have a loving, righteous God who gets His judgements right every time, therefore we don't need an appeals process.

I am greatly troubled by that statement. Among American and European ChristianI do not, just believe, hoping it is true. I know it is true because I believed and the Holy Spirit filled the vacuum in myself and I found the Joy I was searching for. My scripture teaches me that all Christians that are Christian in more than name, only are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and except a being quench Him, He takes over your life and your instruction in the scriptures making them come alive and sharper than a two edged sword.

I'm sure you're right Winnie, His Spirit left His body and went to Hell. It's logical because Jesus had to take the whole of our punishment, not just the 1st half, a painful death on the cross but all the way, right into Hell itself.{/quote]

But Jesus did not descend into Hell except in the manor the Ancients, maybe as late as early 20th Century understood Hell to be. But over the past 2000 years God has progressively revealed Himself and today, with much reading and discussion with many Christian minds and a better understanding of the Lazuras and the Rich man account we understand much better. After all, would YHWH send a Rightous Man to suffer in Hell for doing and believing right?

There according to 1 Peter 3:19 He preached to the disobedient before exiting to complete His resurrection. If you bear in mind that Jesus is as holy as God, that 2nd part would have been worse than the 1st. He did both willingly to rescue us and bring us with Him to present us before God in Heaven. Thank you Jesus, thank you God.

 

[ezra]

So far out in left field it's in the Creeds!

i dont use creeds. who wrote the creeds ?

 

[WIP]

This is also my understanding.
The creed that says that Jesus descended into hell is no longer used because it is now believed that Jesus never went to hell to preach, but to Abraham's Bossom to bring out those that were waiting, as you've said.

We still use it in our church.