A Weekend in Hell

[GodsGrace]

We still use it in our church.

this is the creed that's recited at the Catholic churches here by me:

The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[ezra]

this is the creed that's recited at the Catholic churches here by me:

The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

when growing up in the methodist church we use to say this every Sunday along with responsive reading..no thanks

 

[GodsGrace]

when growing up in the methodist church we use to say this every Sunday along with responsive reading..no thanks

No thanks to repeating it every week, or to the content?
I like that it exists because it states exactly what Christians are supposed to believe. Sometimes we lose tract of this and we make up our own understanding, or requirement , for being called a Christian.

 

[ezra]

No thanks to repeating it every week, or to the content?
I like that it exists because it states exactly what Christians are supposed to believe. Sometimes we lose tract of this and we make up our own understanding, or requirement , for being called a Christian.

repeating it content is ok i just dont need to say it.. if you ask a hundred people what is a Christian you would get a hundred different answers some correct some made up to fit them.. we have the written word and that is enuf for me.in acts the jailer asked good sirs what must i do to be saved? reply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you and your family will be saved/// some take that as if one is saved all saved at same time

 

[ezra]

Sometimes we lose tract of this and we make up our own understanding, or requirement , for being called a Christian.

yes i agree just not a fan of the creeds

 

[Razeontherock]

This is also my understanding.
The creed that says that Jesus descended into hell is no longer used because it is now believed that Jesus never went to hell to preach, but to Abraham's Bossom to bring out those that were waiting, as you've said.

What about the passage that includes disobedient spirits? He preached to those in Paradise? 1 Peter 3:20

How does the Church, who's job is to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints, decide to up and change ancient doctrine?

 

[Razeontherock]

i dont use creeds. who wrote the creeds ?

Those much closer to the Source than anyone here.

 

[th1b.taylor]

this is the creed that's recited at the Catholic churches here by me:

The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I ascribe to that also. It fits with Baptist theology and it fits smoothly along side my personal theology.

 

[Razeontherock]

No thanks to repeating it every week, or to the content?
I like that it exists because it states exactly what Christians are supposed to believe. Sometimes we lose tract of this and we make up our own understanding, or requirement , for being called a Christian.

That Creed is, as you say, changed. I'm not sure when the RC version of it changed so substantially, but I do recall hearing a big ruckus about it.

It sure seems to me like what you say here, "just make up our own understanding." I understand the magisterium was involved. I still don't see how this jibes with Scripture

 

[th1b.taylor]

What about the passage that includes disobedient spirits? He preached to those in Paradise? 1 Peter 3:20

How does the Church, who's job is to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints, decide to up and change ancient doctrine?

as far as I can see they understand that YHWH is still progressively revealing Himself.

 

[Razeontherock]

as far as I can see they understand that YHWH is still progressively revealing Himself.

I don't see safety in going past Scripture, if that contradicts Scripture.

What I've seen as legitimate progressive revelation ALWAYS proves to be personal insight into what the Apostles knew; i.e., "the Faith once delivered." Is this not the purpose of Jesus' statement that His sheep know His voice?

 

[th1b.taylor]

I don't see safety in going past Scripture, if that contradicts Scripture.

What I've seen as legitimate progressive revelation ALWAYS proves to be personal insight into what the Apostles knew; i.e., "the Faith once delivered." Is this not the purpose of Jesus' statement that His sheep know His voice?

Yes and in the past when I've been wrong He has corrected me. I do not hold with the thought He would continue with me for twenty-seven years of my, now better than twenty-eight year journey without correcting me on this one issue.

 

[Razeontherock]

As I've said before, Enoch was there when it happened. Others were too, but it's his perspective of the event I'm most curious about; (after Jesus', of course) I think he's a pretty cool guy.

My 37 year walk with our Lord can have a different view from yours on some things that are beyond what Scripture says plainly, and He's ok with that.

 

[Andyintheuk]

This is also my understanding.
The creed that says that Jesus descended into hell is no longer used because it is now believed that Jesus never went to hell to preach, but to Abraham's Bossom to bring out those that were waiting, as you've said.

There are a few verses that seem to confirm that Jesus did actually go to Heĺl or Hedes, Sheol or whatever you want to call it-

Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’ “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. Acts 2:26‭-‬31 NKJV

But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.” (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:7‭-‬10 NKJV

I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Revelation 1:18 NKJV

I'm pretty sure that Jesus wasn't spared the full punishment that was due to us but He took it on in our pĺace and so conquered both death and Helĺ.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

This is of course all true about Abraham, and when people erroneously claim that our theological term "Faith" means nothing more than what a modern dictionary says, this is a useful story to help illustrate just how wrong that is.

What about Isaac? He barely gets a mention in passing. Consider the Faith of Isaac!! I don't care what age he was, he could've taken his old man out. Yet he never raised a hand against his father. Not when the knife was drawn, not even when the knife was raised?!? What a giant of Faith!
Without his critical contribution of demonstrating his Faith by his inaction, the story we have would read rather differently, such that we'd likely not have this family's story at all.

I think there's a valid parallel between Isaac and that Sabbath that Jesus spent in the tomb; the only 24 hour day He spent in the tomb.

What I find really amazing about Isaac is he didn't even need to have his name changed to do this, whereas both his father and son DID need God to intervene and change their nature as well as their names for them to be able to walk out their Faith. And no those two did not do more than Isaac, because greater love has no man than this, that he should lay down his life for his friends.

I simply loved your reply. Thank you for sharing this profound insight about Isaac and Abraham and their gigantic faith . Honestly it never occurred to me what you just write about Isaac. I kept marvelling Abraham's faith each time I read the passage. Indeed it's Isaac who is the unsung hero in this incident. His faith was as great as his father's.

 

[GodsGrace]

repeating it content is ok i just dont need to say it.. if you ask a hundred people what is a Christian you would get a hundred different answers some correct some made up to fit them.. we have the written word and that is enuf for me.in acts the jailer asked good sirs what must i do to be saved? reply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you and your family will be saved/// some take that as if one is saved all saved at same time

When election is spoken of in the N.T., Paul is speaking of the election of the nation of Israel, or the choice God made to reveal Himself through Israel.

When salvation is being spoken of in the N.T. it is always a personal salvation. We must all come to God by ourselves, in a personal way.
We cannot hang onto anyone's coattails.

So yes, I agree with your last sentence.

 

[GodsGrace]

What about the passage that includes disobedient spirits? He preached to those in Paradise? 1 Peter 3:20

How does the Church, who's job is to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints, decide to up and change ancient doctrine?

Hi R
I personally have no explanation for 1 Peter 3:20 and I don't care to use commentaries; I like to rely on what I've been taught.

I do know that Jesus did not preach to those in 1 Peter 3:20 but He only proclaimed, or stated to them, that the salvation process is now complete.

Most believe that Jesus could not have entered hell. So 1 Peter must be referring to Luke 16, hades. He went there to release those in Abraham's bossom so that they could now enter heaven, and He proclaimed to those in the flame that all was now complete.

It seems to me that those "in the flames" were already in hell, but perhaps Jesus made His proclamation from Abraham's Bossom. It does appear that they could hear each other by verse 24.

As to the church, I'm not sure which church you're referring to, but I can't answer except to say that we do have continuing revelation. There is so much more history known today that we may better be able to understand the written word.

Also, the bible does say a few ideas that are difficult to understand.

 

[GodsGrace]

That Creed is, as you say, changed. I'm not sure when the RC version of it changed so substantially, but I do recall hearing a big ruckus about it.

It sure seems to me like what you say here, "just make up our own understanding." I understand the magisterium was involved. I still don't see how this jibes with Scripture

The CC changed the creed because its theologians have come to the conclusion that it's not possible for Jesus to have entered hell. It really does not make any sense. God cannot be part of hell just as satan cannot be part of heaven. The divide has been created and cannot be crossed over.

Of course the magesterium was involved.

What do you mean about it jiving with scripture?
Which part of the creed to you believe does not jive with scripture??

Here it is again. I might have misunderstood you, sorry if so.

The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[GodsGrace]

I ascribe to that also. It fits with Baptist theology and it fits smoothly along side my personal theology.

Well amen to that!
It is, after all, mainline Christianity.

 

[Andyintheuk]

Hi Taylor. I know we've had our spats and disagreements, but I'm wondering if a lot of that is us misunderstanding each other's posts?

We each of us seem to hold doggedly to our theories about the saints that came back to life following Jesus's crucifixion. Old Testament or recently departed? When we do go upstairs one of us is going to point to the other and say: 'I told ya!' But so what? Isn't that some of the fascinating aspects of the Bible? It poses questions, answers lots but not all, giving us plenty to speculate and chat about. One day all these mysteries will be revealed.

Still on the subject of the Old Testament saints, I notice some seem to think they got stored in some sort of a 'holding bay'. Personally I believe that so long as they believed in God's redeeming plan and the coming of the Messiah, they went straight to Heaven. When I go upstairs I'm looking forward to chatting with Noah, David, Daniel, Isaiah etc.

To me it doesn't seem likely that Elijah went up in a whirlwind in a glorious heavenly chariot to a 'holding bay'.
Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. II Kings 2:11 NKJV

I take your point about two heavens but they don't run concurrently, one for OT saints and the other for NT. Rather the first is a heaven that God created in Genesis 1 and then it's eventual replacement -
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:1 NKJV