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Allah admits he is the best deceiver

In 4 places in the Quran (that I am aware of) Allah admits outright that he is the "best deceiver":

Quran 3:54 said:
Arabic: ومكروا ومكر الله والله خير الماكرين

Transliteration: Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena

Literal: And they cheated/deceived and God cheated/deceived, and God (is) the best (of) the cheaters/deceivers
Source
Quran 8:30 said:
Arabic: واذ يمكر بك الذين ÙƒÙÂروا ليثبتوك او يقتلوك او يخرجوك ويمكرون ويمكر الله والله خير الماكرين

Transliteration:
Wa-ith yamkuru bika allatheena kafaroo liyuthbitooka aw yaqtulooka aw yukhrijooka wayamkuroona wayamkuru Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena

Literal:
And when those who disbelieved deceive/scheme at you to affix/affirm you, or kill you, or bring you out, and they scheme/deceive , and God deceives/schemes and God (is) best (of) the deceivers/schemers
Source
Quran 10:21 said:
Arabic: واذا اذقنا الناس رحمة من بعد ضراء مستهم اذا لهم مكر ÙÂÙŠ اياتنا قل الله اسرع مكرا ان رسلنا يكتبون ماتمكرون

Transliteration: Wa-itha athaqna alnnasa rahmatan min baAAdi darraa massat-hum itha lahum makrun fee ayatina quli Allahu asraAAu makran inna rusulana yaktuboona ma tamkuroona

Literal: And if We made the people taste/experience mercy from after calamity/disastrous distress touched them, then for them (is) cheatery/deceit/schemes in Our verses/evidences . Say: "God (is) quicker/faster (in) cunning/scheming , that Our messengers write what you cheat/ deceive/scheme."
Source
Quran 13:42 said:
Arabic: وقد مكر الذين من قبلهم ÙÂلله المكر جميعا يعلم ماتكسب كل Ù†ÙÂس وسيعلم الكÙÂار لمن عقبى الدار

Transliteration: Waqad makara allatheena min qablihim falillahi almakru jameeAAan yaAAlamu ma taksibu kullu nafsin wasayaAAlamu alkuffaru liman AAuqba alddari

Literal: And those from before them had cheated/deceived/schemed, so to God (is) all the cheatery/deceit/scheme. He knows what every self gains/acquires , and the disbelievers will know to whom (is) the house's/home's end/turn (result).
Source

A lot of Muslims tend to counter this by appealing to the context of the verse, saying "Oh Allah only deceives the non-Muslims" - but this is irrelevant because we have a (supposedly) omniscient being, telling us that he is the best deceiver. Therefore he is saying there is no deceiver higher than himself. Therefore Muslims cannot be certain that Allah is not deceiving them as well.

Most translators translate this word (makr) benignly as "planner" but this not what it makr means (one who plots to cheat you by deception) - "cheater" or "deceiver" is closer in meaning. Translating it as "planner" is a non-sequitor argument - Yes, Makr can be translated as "scheme"/"schemer" (but ALWAYS with a negative connotation), and scheme can mean "plan" but this does not mean that you can say "makr" means "planner".

How can you trust your deity if he admits in his unaltered perfect word that he is the best deceiver?

More at my full article here:
http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Makir
 
lot of Muslims tend to counter this by appealing to the context of the verse, saying "Oh Allah only deceives the non-Muslims" - but this is irrelevant because we have a (supposedly) omniscient being, telling us that he is the best deceiver. Therefore he is saying there is no deceiver higher than himself. Therefore Muslims cannot be certain that Allah is not deceiving them as well.

Most translators translate this word (makr) benignly as "planner" but this not what it makr means (one who plots to cheat you by deception) - "cheater" or "deceiver" is closer in meaning. Translating it as "planner" is a non-sequitor argument - Yes, Makr can be translated as "scheme"/"schemer" (but ALWAYS with a negative connotation), and scheme can mean "plan" but this does not mean that you can say "makr" means "planner".

How can you trust your deity if he admits in his unaltered perfect word that he is the best deceiver?

More at my full article here:
http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Makir

Didnt you think that the problem in in your understanding of that verse!?

I liked the part when you mentioned what Muslims say becuase I am Muslim and I see this verse totaly different then what you calim about Muslims!!!!


The verse talks about group of Decievers who wanted to Kill Jesus (pbuh), but can they decieve God!?

sure not!

So God decieved them as HE made their destruction in their Deceives and Evil!

Does the verse says that God decieve beleivers or Muslims or anyone else!?

Sure not!

But for Decievers who think they are smart and can decieve God for sure they are nothing compared to their creator!

Peace
 
Love25 said:
Didnt you think that the problem in in your understanding of that verse!?
Oh come on this excuse is really getting old, don't you think?

Love25 said:
I liked the part when you mentioned what Muslims say becuase I am Muslim and I see this verse totaly different then what you calim about Muslims!!!!
Please don't misrepresent what I said. I said "a lot of Muslims" not "all Muslims".

The rest of your post goes on about the context of the verses; but if you read my OP again you will see I have already addressed this apologetics. Here it is again:

A lot of Muslims tend to counter this by appealing to the context of the verse, saying "Oh Allah only deceives the non-Muslims" - but this is irrelevant because we have a (supposedly) omniscient being, telling us that he is the best deceiver. Therefore he is saying there is no deceiver higher than himself. Therefore Muslims cannot be certain that Allah is not deceiving them as well.

......

How can you trust your deity if he admits in his unaltered perfect word that he is the best deceiver?
In short, the context is irrelevant, because omniscient Allah is making a definitive statement: "I am the best deceiver". Secondly, how can you trust an admitted "best deceiver" (god remember?) to not lie to you? You have no assurance of this. I daresay, even if the Quran contained Allah's words saying "I am not deceiving Muslims" (it doesn't but just for arguments sake) then we still should be doubtful because he has already admitted to being the "best deceiver" which means it could be a double fakeout.

Thanks
 
Please don't misrepresent what I said. I said "a lot of Muslims" not "all Muslims".

Really!? :)

--------------------------------------

In short, the context is irrelevant, because omniscient Allah is making a definitive statement: "I am the best deceiver". Secondly, how can you trust an admitted "best deceiver" (god remember?) to not lie to you? You have no assurance of this. I daresay, even if the Quran contained Allah's words saying "I am not deceiving Muslims" (it doesn't but just for arguments sake) then we still should be doubtful because he has already admitted to being the "best deceiver" which means it could be a double fakeout.

you dont take words that you like out of the Context IN the same verse and begin to explain it as you like!

The verse are very clear and it talks about those who wanted to decieve God so God deceived them by;

Making their destruction in their deceive!

So when we say God is best Deciever this simply apply to those who think they can decieve God and the way God decieve is making their destruction in their own decieve, and for sure Muslims or even Non Muslims who dont try to decive God not metnioned here!

Peace
 
Love25 said:
What kind of answer is this? It's right there in my OP.

Love25 said:
again you dont take words that you like out if the Context of the same verse and begin to explain it as you like!
Okay you explain this to me in your words please:

1. An omniscient being says "I am the BEST Deceiver". If he is truly omniscient (all knowing) would he know if there were someone "better" at deceiving than he is?

2. Can you trust someone not to lie to you who tells you "I am the BEST Deceiver"? (ie. someone who is an admitted accomplished liar).

Love25 said:
The verse are very clear and it talks about those who wanted to decieve God so God deceived them by;
Again you are going on about context, but you are ignoring my point. Allah cannot be trusted to be telling you (Muslims) the truth because he has admited repeatedly to being the "best deceiver". Which means it is unlikely that you, not being as good a deceiver as he is, would not be able to easily see through the deception that he has put for you.

Love25 said:
So when we say God is best Deciever this simply apply to those who think they can decieve God
No, it applies to Allah, since he describes himself as the "best deceiver"

Love25 said:
and the way God decieve is making their destruction in their own decieve, and for sure there is no Muslims or even Non Muslims who dont try to decive God!
Again irrelevant. God is the BEST Deceiver. Think about that. He may be deceiving every Muslim right now - and since he's a better deceiver than you, you probably would no realise it - you might even defend him.
 
Allah admits to Deceiving Muslims in the Quran:

Quran 8:43-44 said:
When Allah showed them to you in your dream as few; and if He had shown them to you as many you would certainly have become weak-hearted and you would have disputed about the matter, but Allah saved (you); surely He is the Knower of what is in the breasts.

And when He showed them to you, when you met, as few in your eyes and He made you to appear little in their eyes, in order that Allah might bring about a matter which was to be done, and to Allah are all affairs returned.
Allah deceived Muhammad in a dream by portraying the opposing forces as a few because he did no want the Muslims to become intimidated (ie. he wanted them to fight)

Kathir said:
[Ø¥ÙÂذْ ÙŠÙÂرÙÂيكَهÙÂم٠اللَّه٠ÙÂÙÂÙ‰ مَنَامÙÂÙƒÙŽ Ù‚ÙŽÙ„ÙÂيلاً وَلَوْ أَرَاكَهÙÂمْ ÙƒÙŽØ«ÙÂيراً Ù„ÙŽÙ‘ÙÂÙŽØ´ÙÂلْتÙÂمْ وَلَتَنَـزَعْتÙÂمْ ÙÂÙÂÙ‰ الاٌّمْر٠وَلَـكÙÂÙ†ÙŽÙ‘ اللَّهَ سَلَّمَ Ø¥ÙÂنَّه٠عَلÙÂيمٌ بÙÂذَات٠الصÙÂّدÙÂور٠- ÙˆÙŽØ¥ÙÂذْ ÙŠÙÂرÙÂيكÙÂÙ…ÙÂوهÙÂمْ Ø¥ÙÂذ٠الْتَقَيْتÙÂمْ ÙÂÙÂÙ‰ أَعْيÙÂÙ†ÙÂÙƒÙÂمْ Ù‚ÙŽÙ„ÙÂيلاً ÙˆÙŽÙŠÙÂÙ‚ÙŽÙ„ÙÂّلÙÂÙƒÙÂمْ ÙÂÙÂÙ‰ أَعْيÙÂÙ†ÙÂÙ‡ÙÂمْ Ù„ÙÂيَقْضÙÂÙ‰ÙŽ اللَّه٠أَمْراً كَانَ Ù…ÙŽÙÂْعÙÂولاً ÙˆÙŽØ¥ÙÂÙ„ÙŽÙ‰ اللَّه٠تÙÂرْجَع٠الأÙÂÙ…ÙÂور٠]

(43. (And remember) when Allah showed them to you as few in your dream; if He had shown them to you as many, you would surely have been discouraged, and you would surely have disputed in making a decision. But Allah saved (you). Certainly, He is the All-Knower of that is in the breasts.) (44. And (remember) when you met, He showed them to you as few in your eyes and He made you appear as few in their eyes, so that Allah might accomplish a matter already ordained, and to Allah return all matters (for decision).)

Mujahid said, "In a dream, Allah showed the Prophet the enemy as few. The Prophet conveyed this news to his Companions and their resolve strengthened.'' Similar was said by Ibn Ishaq and several others. Allah said,

[وَلَوْ أَرَاكَهÙÂمْ ÙƒÙŽØ«ÙÂيراً Ù„ÙŽÙ‘ÙÂÙŽØ´ÙÂلْتÙÂمْ]

(If He had shown them to you as many, you would surely, have been discouraged,) you would have cowardly abstained from meeting them and fell in dispute among yourselves,

[وَلَـكÙÂÙ†ÙŽÙ‘ اللَّهَ سَلَّمَ]

(But Allah saved), from all this, when He made you see them as few,

[Ø¥ÙÂنَّه٠عَلÙÂيمٌ بÙÂذَات٠الصÙÂّدÙÂورÙÂ]

(Certainly, He is the All-Knower of that is in the breasts.) [8:43].

Allah knows what the heart and the inner-self conceal,

[يَعْلَمالاٌّعْيÙÂن٠وَمَا تÙÂخْÙÂÙÂÙ‰ الصÙÂّدÙÂور٠]

(Allah knows the fraud of the eyes, and all that the breasts conceal) [40:19].

Allah's statement,

[ÙˆÙŽØ¥ÙÂذْ ÙŠÙÂرÙÂيكÙÂÙ…ÙÂوهÙÂمْ Ø¥ÙÂذ٠الْتَقَيْتÙÂمْ ÙÂÙÂÙ‰ أَعْيÙÂÙ†ÙÂÙƒÙÂمْ Ù‚ÙŽÙ„ÙÂيلاً]

(And (remember) when you met, He showed them to you as few in your eyes) demonstrates Allah's compassion towards the believers. Allah made them see few disbelievers in their eyes, so that they would be encouraged and feel eager to meet them. Abu Ishaq As-Subai`i said, that Abu `Ubaydah said that `Abdullah bin Mas`ud said, "They were made to seem few in our eyes during Badr, so that I said to a man who was next to me, `Do you think they are seventy' He said, `Rather, they are a hundred.' However, when we captured one of them, we asked him and he said, `We were a thousand.''' Ibn Abi Hatim and Ibn Jarir recorded it. Allah said next,

[ÙˆÙŽÙŠÙÂÙ‚ÙŽÙ„ÙÂّلÙÂÙƒÙÂمْ ÙÂÙÂÙ‰ أَعْيÙÂÙ†ÙÂÙ‡ÙÂمْ]

(and He made you appear as few in their eyes,) Allah said,

[ÙˆÙŽØ¥ÙÂذْ ÙŠÙÂرÙÂيكÙÂÙ…ÙÂوهÙÂمْ Ø¥ÙÂذ٠الْتَقَيْتÙÂمْ]

(And (remember) when you met. He showed them to you...), He encouraged each of the two groups against the other, according to `Ikrimah, as recorded by Ibn Abi Hatim.
Source

No, it was not 'compassionate' of Allah to show 'few' to Muhammad - it was DECEPTION plain and simple. If I say to you that you get 3 years in jail in return for your testimony, but I know (and conceal) that you will actually get 6 years, that is NOT compassion, it is deception.

Allah deceived the Muslims as shown in his Quran - therefore Allah is being truthful when he says "I am the best deceiver"
 
What kind of answer is this? It's right there in my OP.


it is kind of answer that should make you THINK deeply about what you claim!

-----------------------------

1. An omniscient being says "I am the BEST Deceiver". If he is truly omniscient (all knowing) would he know if there were someone "better" at deceiving than he is?

What this have to do with anything said in that verse!?

This verse are Allah (swt) words to humans and HE tell us about those who thought they could decieve God!!

------------------------------
2. Can you trust someone not to lie to you who tells you "I am the BEST Deceiver"? (ie. someone who is an admitted accomplished liar).

Sorry were did you see any LIE in that verse that made by God!?

God decieved them by making their lose or destruction in their own EVIL or decieve they made, they wanted to kill Prophet of God Jesus (pbuh) so God didnt allow that, simple and easy!

--------------------------------

Again you are going on about context, but you are ignoring my point. Allah cannot be trusted to be telling you (Muslims) the truth because he has admited repeatedly to being the "best deceiver". Which means it is unlikely that you, not being as good a deceiver as he is, would not be able to easily see through the deception that he has put for you.

Again you build you case by taking words from verse and put it in the frame you like it and that server your desires!

Do you know that in Holy Quran there is places when we read verses we should not stop reading them untill we read the whole verse!?

For example"

4:43 (Picktall) O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, than go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving

So someone smart can come and say:

Draw not near unto prayer!!!

This is same what your anti islamic web site that you use making, to waste our time!

Peace
 
This post is written from an Islamic perspective. and I am not saying this is accurate, but according to the Quran it is and shows further that according to Allah's own Quran, Allah is not to be trusted. Moderators please let me know if this post is unacceptable:


Allah created Christianity by his deception and did not correct it for 600 years:

According to Islam, Jesus is not god, and he was NOT crucified. So why did people think he was crucified? Because Allah made it appear so:

Quran 4:157-158 said:
And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

So Allah made it appear that Isa was crucified (died) on the cross, so he deliberately deceived them (the jews). In the next 600 years, Allah sat back and watched all these people converting to Christianity, which he had errantly started (by making it appear as though Jesus was resurrected and then raised to heaven) but he didn't bother to lift a finger until 600 years later, when he sent Muhammad with the Quran to clear up the mess that he himself (Allah) had caused by his earlier deception.

So he sends Jesus to 'fix' the errors that have crept into Judaism, but then undoes ALL the work by making it appear as though Jesus was crucified (negates the whole exercise) and then people have to either choose Judaism (which he supposedly replaced with Jesus' message) which he THEN corrupted by misleading the people that Jesus was crucified. THEN waits 600 years to fix it! Makes sense? No.


So I have shown that according to Allah's own perfect and unaltered words, he admits to being "the best deceiver" and deceiving:
1. Enemies of Islam
2. Innocent people who did not know of Islam (over 600 years)
3. Muslims

Who else is left to be deceived? I think he's covered deceiving everyone.
 
Love25 said:
What this have to do with anything said in that verse!?
The verses say Allah is the best deceiver.

Love25 said:
Sorry were did you see any LIE in that verse that made by God!?
A deceiver is a liar.

Love25 said:
So someone smart can come and say:

Draw not near unto prayer!!!
Your comparison is not the same. My verse deals with a definitive statement from Allah. Yours is an incomplete sentence and not about Allah.

Love25 said:
This is same what your anti islamic web site that you use making, to waste our time!
I wrote the article on Makir. Just because I posted it on WikiIslam does not invalidate the information presented in it.
 
What this have to do with anything said in that verse!?

The verses say Allah is the best deceiver.

Love25 said:
Sorry were did you see any LIE in that verse that made by God!?
A deceiver is a liar.

Love25 said:
So someone smart can come and say:

Draw not near unto prayer!!!
Your comparison is not the same. My verse deals with a definitive statement from Allah. Yours is an incomplete sentence and not about Allah.

[/quote]
I wrote the article on Makir. Just because I posted it on WikiIslam does not invalidate the information presented in it.[/quote]

You are going in Circles, too much pride!?

As I said to you before such web site are good for people who dont know Islam in order to confuse them thats why you all play with words here or there and begin to make whole story arround it!

Again you cannot take words you like out of Context and invent whole story on that!

You even this time not only verse out of Context but you took words out of Context from same verse!

But you need to post anything against Islam, right!?

You are atheist, right!? :)

Peace
 
Love25 said:
You are going in Circles, too much pride!?
How am I going in circles? No not pride at all, but you and another Mulsim have accused me of "copy/paste" and "anti Islam sites" but I am just making you aware that I wrote the articles that I present (or I have checked them) and the mere fact that it's posted on (as you perceive) an "anti Islamic site" does not negate the information presented.

Love25 said:
As I said to you before such web site are good for people who dont know Islam in order to confuse them thats why you all play with words here or there and begin to make whole story arround it!
And yet you are having so much trouble refuting what I'm writing you are resorting to attacking me and the website instead of addressing the issue.

Love25 said:
Again you cannot take words you like out of Context and invent whole story on that!
Again it's been explained that the context of the verses are irrelevant because Allah states definitively "I am the best deceiver".

Love25 said:
You even this time not only verse out of Context but you took words out of Context from same verse!
What do you mean?

Love25 said:
But you need to post anything against Islam, right!?
I make sure to do my research and back up any claims I make with evidence. and No, I do not post things just because they are "anti Islam" - as I said, I make sure to triple check their accuracy

Love25 said:
You are atheist, right!?
yes, but what does this have to do with this thread or the fact that Allah is the best deceiver?
 
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