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Bible Study Alleged Biblical Problem

Atonement

Member
In Matthew 13:31-32, Jesus said that the mustard seed was "smaller than all other seeds," but that when it was full grown, it would be large enough for birds to nest in its branches.

Today, we know that there are seeds even smaller than the mustard seed. For instance, the orchid seed is so small and fine that it's almost dust-like. There are those who would also question whether a mustard seed could ever grow into a tree that is large enough to hold a bird nest.

Now, if Jesus was wrong about the mustard seed, why should we trust anything else that He said? And on what basis can the Bible be considered reliable on any scientific or historical matter?

Sensible Solution


Please note that Jesus was not comparing the mustard seed to all other seeds in the world, but to seeds that a local, Palestinian farmer might have "sowed in his field," i.e., a key qualifying phrase in verse 31. And it's absolutely true that the black mustard seed (Brassica nigra = Sinapis nigra) was the smallest seed ever sown by a first-century farmer in that part of the world.

It's also true, as many modern-day encyclopedias will tell you, that the black mustard seed in Israel will typically grow to heights of 3.7 meters, or twelve (12) feet) -- plenty large enough to hold a bird nest.

It's important to remember that the Bible often uses everyday terminology in order to communicate simple truth. Even today, we might refer to a "sunset" when, technically, scientifically, we know that the sun never actually 'sets,' i.e., it's the earth that revolves.


The context of Matthew 13 makes it quite clear that Jesus was addressing a local lay audience, not an international conference of botanists. It seems that no reasonable person would therefore insist for very long that this text provides a viable basis for questioning either Jesus or the Bible, when it comes to getting the facts straight -- scientifically, historically, or technically.
 
Atonement said:
It's important to remember that the Bible often uses everyday terminology in order to communicate simple truth. Even today, we might refer to a "sunset" when, technically, scientifically, we know that the sun never actually 'sets,' i.e., it's the earth that revolves/
I agree with the spirit of this. I would go further and suggest that Jesus might have honestly believed that the mustard was indeed the smallest of all seeds - even if this was not factually true.

Before you all pick up your stones and take aim at my head, I think it is not at all clear that the "man" Jesus knew all the scrientific and technical truths about botany. If you want to reply with the facile answer that "Jesus, as God, is omniscient and therefore knows everything", I am prepared to go down that road. I happen to believe that He probably believed that the world was flat -and as we know, this is not the case.

We can sometimes try to get away with too much when we make the astonishing claim that Jesus was "fully man and fully God". This is not an easy position to actually make sense of (and I am not disputing it).
 
I happen to believe that He probably believed that the world was flat

Oh yes, when Jesus came in the flesh he had amnesia, that must be why he remembered that he had Glory with God the Father in the beginning.

Not to mention Isaiah 40:22 says:
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in
."
 
cybershark5886 said:
Oh yes, when Jesus came in the flesh he had amnesia, that must be why he remembered that he had Glory with God the Father in the beginning.
If you really want to get into a contest of "pointed witticisms", I will be more than happy to play that game with you......

cybershark5886 said:
Not to mentions Isaiah 40:22 says:
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in
."

My example may not have been ideal, but I think the question of the extent of Jesus' knowledge is very much an open question. If you are going to argue that Jesus held full knowledge of all things, then please go ahead, try to make that case. I assume that you can anticipate at least some of the counterarguments.
 
If you really want to get into a contest of "pointed witticisms", I will be more than happy to play that game with you......

Merely making a point my friend, and a good one at that. Jesus knew his special relationship with God and remembered what happened in the beginning.

My example may not have been ideal, but I think the question of the extent of Jesus' knowledge is very much an open question. If you are going to argue that Jesus held full knowledge of all things, then please go ahead, try to make that case. I assume that you can anticipate at least some of the counterarguments.

Not at the expense of highjacking the thread. As for my view: Jesus did know many things beyond the limits of human knowledge, for example he knew what was in man (John 2:25) and Jesus knew several times what was in his opponents hearts. I believe Jesus limited himself in some respects by coming in the flesh but when it comes to facts I believe Jesus always had them right. And for the record I agree with the OP because that interpretation is in keeping with the Hebrew idiom of "earth/land" and is also used in a more confined sense when the Pharisees said "Look the whole world is going after him." That term is the equivalent of the Hebrew 'eretz and eretz is translated several times in the OT as land and region as well as "world". It just depends on the context.
 
The context of Jesus's parable is that of a harvest, the
verses prior to that verse set, they were specifically
discussing a harvest... parallel's being made concerning
a harvest, seeds being sown and the crop being harvested.

The mustard seed Jesus mentioned is the smallest they had
that would get sown and then harvested, that all the people
would have known about then. The mustard seed Jesus described
is expected to be the black mustard, which does grow to about
12 feet tall in Israel.


http://home.teleport.com/~salad/4god/mustard.htm
 
I happen to believe that He probably believed that the world was flat -and as we know, this is not the case.

I'm not able to lean that far over, I might hurt my back... That's really putting yourself out there, with really no proof on that...
 
Drew said:
If you want to reply with the facile answer that "Jesus, as God, is omniscient and therefore knows everything", I am prepared to go down that road. I happen to believe that He probably believed that the world was flat -and as we know, this is not the case.

Atonement said:
I'm not able to lean that far over, I might hurt my back... That's really putting yourself out there, with really no proof on that...

hi.gif
I'LL GO THERE!


Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


If He created it, he probably knows what shape it is in.

Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
To avoid having the thread hijacked, and have it turn into a rapture debate, I am just going to highlight the things that show that the Lord would have known that the world was round. He is speaking in the passage of a specific event that will happen on a specific day, and telling the disciples about it.

Luk 17:31 In that day...
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night ...


In order to know that it could be day and night at the same time when this event happens, He would have had to know that the world was round.
 
Gabby, thanks for the repsonse. My point was, that it was an ignorant post made by Drew, and not worth the time to refute the ignorance of the post itself. I'm not saying that Drew is ignorant, it was just an ignorant post he made. Jesus had all knowledge, that is if one believes Jesus is God. If one believes that Jesus was only a prophect, then maybe I would care to elaborate further on such a post. Sounds like a good topic to take to the One On One debate forum.
 
Gabby, thanks for the repsonse. My point was, that it was an ignorant post made by Drew, and not worth the time to refute the ignorance of the post itself. I'm not saying that Drew is ignorant, it was just an ignorant post he made.


Well Drew already recanted that specific arguement of Jesus thinking the earth being flat, so perhaps we shouldn't rub it in. Hopefully we can continue on our normal course of discussion now. :)
 
Cyber, I was not trying to rub anything in. Sorry if you felt that from my post.

No, I was just making a general comment, not to just you specifically. You were just last in line (of which I was in also) to say something about it. But as far as the topic is concerned I think we have adequate support to say that Jesus was speaking relative to the land and possibly even the harvest as one of the links supplied above suggested.

P.S. I wonder if Drew is coming back to comment on any of the things we said?
 
Gentlemen (and ladies):

I will not respond to suggestions that my post was "ignorant".

I will respond to the following statement, however.

cybershark5886 said:
I believe Jesus limited himself in some respects by coming in the flesh but when it comes to facts I believe Jesus always had them right.
I would like to ask that this statement be clarified. Do you hold to any of the following positions:

1. Consider the set of all facts about the world. Each fact is a statement about the way the world is. Jesus did not know all facts about the world, but he was not "mistaken" in respect to anything he did believe to be factual. By analogy to me, I do not know whether the number of ducks in the world right is odd or even. So I am "ignorant" :lol: of the truth in respect to his matter. But I am not mistaken. If I believed that the number were odd and the truth is that the number is even, then I am mistaken.

2. Jesus knew all facts about the world and was mistaken about none.

3. Jesus had some beliefs about the world that were wrong- the facts were at odds with this belief. This position would be true if Jesus indeed believed the world was flat.

I presume that cybershark believes position 1. Position 2 cannot be correct, since Jesus did not know whether he would have to go the cross: "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. " Obviously Jesus would not ask to be spared the cross if He knew the facts about his destiny (unless one wants to argue that "future" is not something about facts can be claimed - and I am more than happy to go down that road).

I think position 3 is probably correct for reasons I hope to get into in a later post.
 
drew said:
I agree with the spirit of this. I would go further and suggest that Jesus might have honestly believed that the mustard was indeed the smallest of all seeds - even if this was not factually true.

Before you all pick up your stones and take aim at my head, I think it is not at all clear that the "man" Jesus knew all the scrientific and technical truths about botany. If you want to reply with the facile answer that "Jesus, as God, is omniscient and therefore knows everything", I am prepared to go down that road. I happen to believe that He probably believed that the world was flat -and as we know, this is not the case.
I think that the biggest problem with making such statements is that it undermines everything Christ said, particularly that he says nothing apart from what the Father tells him.

10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

What else could Jesus have been wrong about? It's a slippery slope my friend.
 
I would like to ask that this statement be clarified. Do you hold to any of the following positions:

1. Consider the set of all facts about the world. Each fact is a statement about the way the world is. Jesus did not know all facts about the world, but he was not "mistaken" in respect to anything he did believe to be factual. By analogy to me, I do not know whether the number of ducks in the world right is odd or even. So I am "ignorant" of the truth in respect to his matter. But I am not mistaken. If I believed that the number were odd and the truth is that the number is even, then I am mistaken.

2. Jesus knew all facts about the world and was mistaken about none.

3. Jesus had some beliefs about the world that were wrong- the facts were at odds with this belief. This position would be true if Jesus indeed believed the world was flat.

#1 Portrays a happen-stance position in which Jesus would just happen to be right if he was, #2 is most in keeping with the correct view but still not satisfactory because I don't hold that Jesus had all the knowledge present in his mind that he had/has in his glorified state, and 3 is just flat out wrong. Jesus had pactical knowledge for his mission on Earth and even miraculous knowledge. And obviously Jesus' close communion with God the Father brought him more knowledge. Obviously at some point he realized what he had been like in Glory. Any facts that he would have needed he had access to from his own remembrance or from his anointing from the Holy Spirit. And if you'll remember Jesus said that he said nothing apart from what the Father commanded him to speak. So we would have to charge the omnicient Father God with error as well.


I presume that cybershark believes position 1. Position 2 cannot be correct, since Jesus did not know whether he would have to go the cross: "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. " Obviously Jesus would not ask to be spared the cross if He knew the facts about his destiny (unless one wants to argue that "future" is not something about facts can be claimed - and I am more than happy to go down that road).

Actually that's not true. Jesus prophesied his own death several times, and we are told that the lamb was slain at the foundation of the world. It was inevitable. But that's off topic...
 
cybershark5886 said:
3 is just flat out wrong. Jesus had pactical knowledge for his mission on Earth and even miraculous knowledge. And obviously Jesus' close communion with God the Father brought him more knowledge. Obviously at some point he realized what he had been like in Glory. Any facts that he would have needed he had access to from his own remembrance or from his anointing from the Holy Spirit. And if you'll remember Jesus said that he said nothing apart from what the Father commanded him to speak. So we would have to charge the omnicient Father God with error as well.
How, exactly have you established that "position 3" is wrong? I do not follow this argument. Consider the hypothetical belief that "the earth is flat". Presumably Jesus in his 33 years of life at some point had a mental thought about this subject. So he presumably had a view on this matter. And by the way, the earlier implication that Isaiah 40:22 shows that Jesus knew the world was round does not work - it is not a statement about what an incarnated Jesus knows. There is nothing I have seen in this thread that gives me any reason to believe that Jesus, as incarnated, did not believe that the earth was flat.

The flatness of the world is not relevant to his mission on earth - He could have done all that He did do while believing that the world was flat. Being incarnated means to be limited in certain ways as the following texts clearly show:

James 1:13 states:

"For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone"

But we also have Hebrews 4:15:

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we areâ€â€yet was without sin"

This clearly establishes a general principle - one cannot simply assume that an attribute of the Father is also an attribute of the Son. So, we cannot simply use the Jesus = God argument and think that God's perfect knowledge is imputed to Jesus.

You might find the suggestion implausible, but I need an actual justification for why I should believe Jesus did not believe the earth was flat.
 
How, exactly have you established that "position 3" is wrong? I do not follow this argument. Consider the hypothetical belief that "the earth is flat". Presumably Jesus in his 33 years of life at some point had a mental thought about this subject. So he presumably had a view on this matter. And by the way, the earlier implication that Isaiah 40:22 shows that Jesus knew the world was round does not work - it is not a statement about what an incarnated Jesus knows. There is nothing I have seen in this thread that gives me any reason to believe that Jesus, as incarnated, did not believe that the earth was flat.

The flatness of the world is not relevant to his mission on earth - He could have done all that He did do while believing that the world was flat. Being incarnated means to be limited in certain ways as the following texts clearly show:

James 1:13 states:

"For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone"

But we also have Hebrews 4:15:

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we areâ€â€yet was without sin"

This clearly establishes a general principle - one cannot simply assume that an attribute of the Father is also an attribute of the Son. So, we cannot simply use the Jesus = God argument and think that God's perfect knowledge is imputed to Jesus.

You might find the suggestion implausible, but I need an actual justification for why I should believe Jesus did not believe the earth was flat.

Would you please give up the world being flat thing. I thought you already recanted this. That is a horrible subjective question which neither of us could establish with 100% certainty. And if Jesus knew the OT well, which it is obvious he did (and he had a perfect understanding of it), then he would have read Isaiah 40:22. If Jesus made a statement about the earth or anything else then it is correct, because Jesus, being God incarnate, I believe was never mistaken, and he had the Holy Spirit in him also during his ministry. And you ignored what I said about everything that Jesus said when he taught was from his Father, he spoke what the Father told him to.
 
cybershark5886 said:
Would you please give up the world being flat thing. I thought you already recanted this. That is a horrible subjective question which neither of us could establish with 100% certainty. And if Jesus knew the OT well, which it is obvious he did (and he had a perfect understanding of it), then he would have read Isaiah 40:22.
OK. I will agree that Jesus must have read Isaiah and therefore believed that the world was round. But I can easily pick another example. He may have one day believed that it was 2 rights and a left to get to the centre of Nazareth when in fact it was 2 lefts and a right. Such "errors" are incidental to his purpose and in no way diminish his status. I am merely expressing the opinion that in order to be "fully human" these kind of errors may have been present.

cybershark5886 said:
And you ignored what I said about everything that Jesus said when he taught was from his Father, he spoke what the Father told him to.
I ignored nothing you wrote. I read it very carefully. You wrote:
Jesus said that he said nothing apart from what the Father commanded him to speak.
My position is entirely consistent with this claim about Jesus. If Jesus said something, I will grant the scripture in question suggests it came from the Father and that he could not be mistaken about such things. But He may never have said anything about how to get to downtown Nazareth, or any of a number of other things.
 
Alright Drew, thanks for your reply. I see your point. But if you'll notice such minute things are of little if no significance to the Bible or biblical doctrine at all. So perhaps we shouldn't even discuss it any further. :)

And that's what I was trying to get at, to understand if you thought Jesus made some error in a doctrinal statement that would be significant. But never mind that anymore.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
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