An account by Josephus....

[Tabasco Breath]

...from the war between the Romans and Jews; Jewish War IV Chapt 7; 4-6.

What does one make of this account?

(4) Vespasian sent Placidus with 500 horse and 3000 foot to pursue those who had fled from Gadara,...
(5) Placidus, relying on his cavalry and emboldened by his previous success, pursued the Gadarenes killing all whom he overtook, as far as the Jordan. Having driven the whole multitude up to the river, where they were blocked by the stream, which being swollen by the rain was unfordable, he drew up his troops in line opposite them. Necessity goaded them to battle, flight being impossible... Fifteen thousand perished by the enemy’s hands, while the number of those who were driven to fling themselves into the Jordan was incalculable; about two thousand two hundred were captured...
(6) This blow was the greatest that had befallen the Jews, and appeared even greater than is was; for not only was the whole countryside through which their flight had lain one scene of carnage, and the Jordan choked with dead, but even the [Dead Sea] was filled with bodies, masses of which were carried down into it by the river."

Note the participants, the place, the action, and unfortunate outcome for many. Could there be a literary connection between this account and the Demon possessed swine account found in the NT?

 

[cyberjosh]

I have a copy of Josephus' Antiquities and The Jewish War, though I have read little from the latter one.

As for the story I do not see any literary dependance in any direction. Not to say the story is not interesting nor the note of Jews jumping into the river remarkable, but I don't see any similar context nor any direct matching of details. I found a story in the Illiad once that is very similar to a story in the Bible in both thrust and theme about an 'evil' prophet who never prophesied what the king wanted to hear, but after briefly entertaining a connection I realized them to be two independent stories about what might have been a fairly common complaint between the social classes of king and prophet. Similarity does not prove dependance or a connection, just as a matter of principle. Interesting excerpt from Josephus though. Thanks for sharing.

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

If you don't mind I could move this thread to the Biblical History & Archaeology section where I think it would fit very well, and I can leave a "shadow link" to it from A&T here. Would you mind?

 

[Tabasco Breath]

I have a copy of Josephus' Antiquities and The Jewish War, though I have read little from the latter one.

As for the story I do not see any literary dependance in any direction. Not to say the story is not interesting nor the note of Jews jumping into the river remarkable, but I don't see any similar context nor any direct matching of details. I found a story in the Illiad once that is very similar to a story in the Bible in both thrust and theme about an 'evil' prophet who never prophesied what the king wanted to hear, but after briefly entertaining a connection I realized them to be two independent stories about what might have been a fairly common complaint between the social classes of king and prophet. Similarity does not prove dependance or a connection, just as a matter of principle. Interesting excerpt from Josephus though. Thanks for sharing.

~Josh

Here is what I find a bit interesting. In the Josephus account, Roman foot soldiers drive, “the whole multitude into the river†to drown.

Now read the Luke 8 demon swine account:

“ 26Then they sailed to the country of the Gerasenes, which is opposite Galilee. 27And when He came out onto the land, He was met by a man from the city who was possessed with demons; and who had not put on any clothing for a long time, and was not living in a house, but in the tombs. 28Seeing Jesus, he cried out and fell before Him, and said in a loud voice, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me." 29For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had seized him many times; and he was bound with chains and shackles and kept under guard, and yet he would break his bonds and be driven by the demon into the desert. 30And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion"; for many demons had entered him. 31They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss. 32Now there was a herd of many swine feeding there on the mountain; and the demons implored Him to permit them to enter the swine. And He gave them permission. 33And the demons came out of the man and entered the swine; and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned.â€

I kind see a similarity in the same driving and drowning scenario.

Depending on which synoptic one reads, the location of the events are essentially the same. The change noted in Matthew to Garada in was to to make the location to water more feasible.

But that could be just a coincidence.

In the synoptic accounts it's the demons who are referred to as Legions, "Legion is my name. There are many of us." There are many of us, just as there would be in a Roman Army unit, and it is the unclean possessed pigs and swine, the allegory slur for Gentiles even used by Jesus, that are relegated for destruction by Jesus.

But that could be just a coincidence.

In addition when Jesus asks the demons name, they respond, “Legion†and there were many of them. We know just as with numerous Roman soldiers from the Josephus account, a Legion is what those Roman units of troops were called.

But that could be just a coincidence.

It’s just all kind of interesting....it's been here for awhile, feel free to move it where you please.