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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
An Ode to Free Will
- Thread starter JM
- Start date
:To the tune of Amazing Grace.
Arminian "grace!" How strange the sound,
Salvation hinged on me.
I once was lost then turned around,
Was blind then chose to see.
What "grace" is it that calls for choice,
Made from some good within?
That part that wills to heed God's voice,
Proved stronger than my sin.
Thru many ardent gospel pleas,
I sat with heart of stone.
But then some hidden good in me,
Propelled me toward my home.
When we've been there ten thousand years,
Because of what we've done,
We've no less days to sing our praise,
Than when we first begun.
Arminian "grace!" How strange the sound,
Salvation hinged on me.
I once was lost then turned around,
Was blind then chose to see.
What "grace" is it that calls for choice,
Made from some good within?
That part that wills to heed God's voice,
Proved stronger than my sin.
Thru many ardent gospel pleas,
I sat with heart of stone.
But then some hidden good in me,
Propelled me toward my home.
When we've been there ten thousand years,
Because of what we've done,
We've no less days to sing our praise,
Than when we first begun.
O
Oscar3
Guest
JM said:
: Arminian "grace!" How strange the sound,
U
unred typo
Guest
Ode-ious mockery of sincere kids doing their best for the Lord. You used the term the “stink of pride†in another thread you have abandoned, JM. I think that is exactly what I would call the attitude of most of the Calvinists who wrote their sarcastic comments. I am glad to have seen it though, because my contempt for Calvinists and Reformed has turned to genuine pity and trepidation for them when God rebukes them for their ridicule of those who have an obvious love for him. JM, wipe that grin off your face before your heavenly father does it for you. You too, Oscar.
:roll:
:roll:
O
Oscar3
Guest
unred typo said:
UNREAD
Yes you are correct maybe. You see, JM and I willl have much to be accountable for when we are seated on the judgement seat of Christ. But this will be a Glorias day for us.
Now you my friend, you will be on the Great whte thone judgement seat trying to explain to God your unbelief in Jesus as God, your open thiestic views, your unitarianism and how you denied all those who tied to preach to you. You best wake up and smell the Gospel that has been presented to u.
U
unred typo
Guest
Oscar said:
I smelt enough of your “gospel†in my years in the Baptist religion. It reeks of death and spoilage. Just for your information, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Word made flesh, and that the Father was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. I don’t agree with much of Open Theism. I am not a Unitarian, although, I would love for them to be right and somehow even the scum of the earth could be redeemed and reconciled to God.
Are you a Reformed or Calvinist, Oscar?
I find it funny how so many on this forum will admonish some of us for believing 'false gospel', stating we follow Satan, plead with us to 'find Jesus' and all these other niceties...
...and then say that God draws us and chooses us no matter what we do.
:-?
Come to grips, folks...If Calvinism is true in any form then:
1) Works don't matter worth a hoot
2) It doesn't matter what you believe or how you do it..if you are destined and drawn by God you can't go wrong.
3) Doctrine doesn't matter
4) Prosylitizing (how the heck do you spell that??) is a waste of time. There is no need to 'preach the gospel' is God draws all men and He will save and loose whom He chooses (and already has)
5) If someone believes in God and has accepted Him as His savior, it automatically means that He has been chosen, so why go to great lengths to say that their 'theology is wrong' claim that they aren't Christian and that they aren't serving the Lord?
either they are chosen or not. There is no 'false theology' to turn from, and we don't have the choice in the matter to 'rightly serve God'. Either you are chosen or you or not.
The fallacies of Calvinism abound and the illogical inconsistencies pile up. The teaching of the Bible, judgement, accountability and witnessing is completely ignored and made a mockery of it.
Sadly, some still believe in Calvinism AND eternal torment which makes God out to be the worst tyrant there is. One cannot believe in Calvinism and still state, "God doesn't send sinners to hell, they send themselves there'
Hogwash. It is one or the other. Either we have free will to choose and reject God, or God condemns us to a hell He created without our choice.
...and then say that God draws us and chooses us no matter what we do.
:-?
Come to grips, folks...If Calvinism is true in any form then:
1) Works don't matter worth a hoot
2) It doesn't matter what you believe or how you do it..if you are destined and drawn by God you can't go wrong.
3) Doctrine doesn't matter
4) Prosylitizing (how the heck do you spell that??) is a waste of time. There is no need to 'preach the gospel' is God draws all men and He will save and loose whom He chooses (and already has)
5) If someone believes in God and has accepted Him as His savior, it automatically means that He has been chosen, so why go to great lengths to say that their 'theology is wrong' claim that they aren't Christian and that they aren't serving the Lord?
either they are chosen or not. There is no 'false theology' to turn from, and we don't have the choice in the matter to 'rightly serve God'. Either you are chosen or you or not.
The fallacies of Calvinism abound and the illogical inconsistencies pile up. The teaching of the Bible, judgement, accountability and witnessing is completely ignored and made a mockery of it.
Sadly, some still believe in Calvinism AND eternal torment which makes God out to be the worst tyrant there is. One cannot believe in Calvinism and still state, "God doesn't send sinners to hell, they send themselves there'
Hogwash. It is one or the other. Either we have free will to choose and reject God, or God condemns us to a hell He created without our choice.
U
unred typo
Guest
That makes perfect sense, guibox. You’d have to be a theologian to miss it; one of those self proclaimed spiritual guides who ‘see’ what the average schmuck with a little common sense and a sincere heart cannot fathom because it makes no sense. God’s spiritual truths are only foolishness to those who reject the straight and narrow way upward in favor of the natural inclination to go downhill. The test for truth is not whether it sounds like foolishness, but whether it is understandable to a person with the simplicity, sense of fairness and sincerity of a child.
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Luke 10:21
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in your sight.
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Luke 10:21
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in your sight.
Joke or not, JM, the fact is, is that what many believe (and a few I consider friends of mine).
I just think that John 3:16 is made null and void and no amount of creative twisting can make it fit. Paul preaching to the Romans and Greeks is a waste of time. Any sort of witnessing to 'win souls for Christ' of which was how the church grew in it beginning for crying out loud, is completely useless.
If God decides who He is coming to save, then the cross was merely a formality (really useless gesture as it wasn't about 'mankind' at all. Why couldn't God just recreate everything anew like the flood?)
Was not the sacrifice of Christ the anti-type of the sanctuary service? Was not the sanctuary service for EVERYBODY to have their sins forgiven? If so, then Christ didn't come to die for some (who would have been saved anyway, propritiation is affected by Calvinism too) but for ALL men.
'For God so loved the world that WHOSOEVER should BELIEVETH on Him should have everlasting life'
'I don't not desire that any should perish but that all should have everlasting life'
'For I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, therefore turn ye and live'
I could go on and on and on but these three texts alone show that free will is used to accept the sacrifice of Christ which is open for all, that believing and accepting this sacrifice is what moves one from 'death to life' and that we are all lost and God came to 'seek and save the lost'.
Calvinism in its purist form makes salvation a crap-shoot and our lives a meaningless charade.
I just think that John 3:16 is made null and void and no amount of creative twisting can make it fit. Paul preaching to the Romans and Greeks is a waste of time. Any sort of witnessing to 'win souls for Christ' of which was how the church grew in it beginning for crying out loud, is completely useless.
If God decides who He is coming to save, then the cross was merely a formality (really useless gesture as it wasn't about 'mankind' at all. Why couldn't God just recreate everything anew like the flood?)
Was not the sacrifice of Christ the anti-type of the sanctuary service? Was not the sanctuary service for EVERYBODY to have their sins forgiven? If so, then Christ didn't come to die for some (who would have been saved anyway, propritiation is affected by Calvinism too) but for ALL men.
'For God so loved the world that WHOSOEVER should BELIEVETH on Him should have everlasting life'
'I don't not desire that any should perish but that all should have everlasting life'
'For I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, therefore turn ye and live'
I could go on and on and on but these three texts alone show that free will is used to accept the sacrifice of Christ which is open for all, that believing and accepting this sacrifice is what moves one from 'death to life' and that we are all lost and God came to 'seek and save the lost'.
Calvinism in its purist form makes salvation a crap-shoot and our lives a meaningless charade.
U
unred typo
Guest
JM said:
Mutzrein’s comments were not an insensitive show of contempt. Making fun of sincerity and love for God is evil and in poor taste for anyone who claims to be a Christian. It’s not like they set themselves up to be mocked and scorned for their obviously heart felt worship. Regardless of their skills or theology, it was a joyful noise in praise and that’s all God asks for.
Whatever you say guibox, but you're basis your beliefs on assumption of freedom of the will which cannot be proven. Man is spiritual dead, fallen in sin and cannot produce anything that results in salvation, faith.
You're assuming the whosoever will's, will. But they only will to sin. Have you done a word search to understand the context in which "pas/all" is used?
The crap-shot is pure Arminianism. God rolls the dice, taking His chances that someone will accept Him...as if that's true.
This is one of the "big 3" often sited, with the claim that God is trying (but not able) to save all men, but this passage isn’t speaking of salvation it's speaking of bring men to repentance (v. 10 the day of the Lord is in view). Many assume that ‘us-ward’ includes the world and this idea is based upon presuppositions about salvation and God in general. This is natural, but we need to 'think God's thoughts after Him' as we conform to the word of God. 'us ward' means towards you, the reader and believer.
"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:"
Peter is speaking to those who have ‘obtained’ the gift of God already, this epistle is not written to all mankind but to the saved, this is a pastoral letter. The context then should be viewed in light of the audience to whom the epistle is written. As the Geneva Bible states, “A reason why the last day does not come too soon, because God patiently waits until all the elect are brought to repentance, that none of them may perish.â€Â
Commentary:
his promise  which the scoffers cavil at. 2Pe_3:4, “Where is the promise?†It shall be surely fulfilled “according to His promise†(2Pe_3:13).
Phi 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
To add, Paul tells us that it is God who gives us the will do His good pleasure. When we "work out our salvation" its God's will that allows us to "will and to do" the work that results in His "good pleasure.
Eze 18:23 Has little to do with the topic, God decreed sin as a part of his divine plan, so if you'd like to blame him. Calvinists do not. God's pleasure is in showing mercy but that doesn't disregard the rest of scripture.
*
Ecclesiastes 3:1, 2-To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven; a time to be born and a time to die, &c. a time fixed by the purpose of God for each of these.
*
Job 14:5-Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass. Chapter 23:14, He performeth the thing that is appointed for me, and many such things are with him.
*
Daniel 4:35-And he doth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, what dost thou?
*
Ephesians 1:11-Being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.
*
Acts 15:18-Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Chapter 17:26â€â€and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation.
*
Matthew 10:29, 30-Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fail to the ground without your Father; but the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Romans 3:5-Whom God hath set forth, proeqeto, fore-ordained to be a propitiation.
*
1 Peter 1:20-Who verily was fore-ordained before the foundation of the world, that is, to he the Lamb slain. See chapter 2:4.
*
Luke 22:29-And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me.
*
Acts 18:31-Because he hath appointed a day in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained. See also chapter 10:42.
*
Isaiah 43:1-Behold my servant, whom I uphold, mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth. See Matthew 12:18.
*
Luke 22:22-And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined, but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed.
*
Acts 2:23-Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and fore-knowledge of God, ye have taken, &c. Chapter 4:28â€â€For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/ ... mon_07.htm
The twisting is done by twisting a few verses out of the context of the Bible.
~JM~
You're assuming the whosoever will's, will. But they only will to sin. Have you done a word search to understand the context in which "pas/all" is used?
The crap-shot is pure Arminianism. God rolls the dice, taking His chances that someone will accept Him...as if that's true.
This is one of the "big 3" often sited, with the claim that God is trying (but not able) to save all men, but this passage isn’t speaking of salvation it's speaking of bring men to repentance (v. 10 the day of the Lord is in view). Many assume that ‘us-ward’ includes the world and this idea is based upon presuppositions about salvation and God in general. This is natural, but we need to 'think God's thoughts after Him' as we conform to the word of God. 'us ward' means towards you, the reader and believer.
"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:"
Peter is speaking to those who have ‘obtained’ the gift of God already, this epistle is not written to all mankind but to the saved, this is a pastoral letter. The context then should be viewed in light of the audience to whom the epistle is written. As the Geneva Bible states, “A reason why the last day does not come too soon, because God patiently waits until all the elect are brought to repentance, that none of them may perish.â€Â
Commentary:
his promise  which the scoffers cavil at. 2Pe_3:4, “Where is the promise?†It shall be surely fulfilled “according to His promise†(2Pe_3:13).
Phi 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
To add, Paul tells us that it is God who gives us the will do His good pleasure. When we "work out our salvation" its God's will that allows us to "will and to do" the work that results in His "good pleasure.
Eze 18:23 Has little to do with the topic, God decreed sin as a part of his divine plan, so if you'd like to blame him. Calvinists do not. God's pleasure is in showing mercy but that doesn't disregard the rest of scripture.
*
Ecclesiastes 3:1, 2-To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven; a time to be born and a time to die, &c. a time fixed by the purpose of God for each of these.
*
Job 14:5-Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass. Chapter 23:14, He performeth the thing that is appointed for me, and many such things are with him.
*
Daniel 4:35-And he doth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, what dost thou?
*
Ephesians 1:11-Being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.
*
Acts 15:18-Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Chapter 17:26â€â€and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation.
*
Matthew 10:29, 30-Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fail to the ground without your Father; but the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Romans 3:5-Whom God hath set forth, proeqeto, fore-ordained to be a propitiation.
*
1 Peter 1:20-Who verily was fore-ordained before the foundation of the world, that is, to he the Lamb slain. See chapter 2:4.
*
Luke 22:29-And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me.
*
Acts 18:31-Because he hath appointed a day in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained. See also chapter 10:42.
*
Isaiah 43:1-Behold my servant, whom I uphold, mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth. See Matthew 12:18.
*
Luke 22:22-And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined, but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed.
*
Acts 2:23-Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and fore-knowledge of God, ye have taken, &c. Chapter 4:28â€â€For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/ ... mon_07.htm
The twisting is done by twisting a few verses out of the context of the Bible.
~JM~
D
dancing queen
Guest
Quick point on the comment saying if there is predestination there is no point in spreading the word and evangilising - not true. Jesus called us to do it. If God is using you to connect to His 'elect' why should you ignore that call because He has the power to do it another way? God doesn't need us to do His work but He does often call us to anyways. I still trying to get my head around the elect stuff but a true Christian would recognise that whether or not election is the case God called us to spread the word, and who are we to question that?!
U
unred typo
Guest
JM said:
I always gave my kids the will to do of my good pleasure with a little whack on the backside when they were not in the mood to obey. I know that is not PC today but it is Biblical. Do you suppose that is what God means when he says he gives us the will to do His good pleasure? Or is that too simple and straightforward for you?
:smt102
reply
Paul's teaching about election involves the following truths:
1. Election is Christocentric, election of humans occurs only in union with Jesus Christ. He Chose us in Him ( Eph. 1:4). Jesus Himself is first of all the elect of God. Concerning Jesus, God states, Here is my serrvant whom I have chosen ( Mtt. 12:18; 1 Peter 2:4). Christ as the elect, is the foundation of our election. Only in union with Christ do we become members of the elect ( Eph. 1:4, 6-7, 9-10, 12 -13). No one is elect apart from union with Christ through faith.
2. Election is in Him...through his blood ( Eph. 1:7). God purposed before creation ( Eph. 1:4) to form a people through Christ's redemptive death on the cross. Thus election is grounded in Christ's sacrificial death to save us from our sins ( Acts 20:28; Rom. 3:24-26).
3. Election is primarily corporate, an election of people ( Eph 1:4-5, 7, 9). The elect are called the Body of Christ ( 4:12), my church ( Matt. 16:18), a people belonging to God ( 1 Pet. 2:9), and the bride of Christ ( Rev. 19:7). Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons with the Body of Christ, the true church ( Eph. 1:22-23).
4. Election to salvation in Christ is offered to all, but becomes actual for particular persons contingent on their repentance and faith as they accept God's gift of salvation in Christ ( Eph. 2:8; 3:17; Rom. 1:16; 4:16). At the point of faith, the believer is incorporated into Christ's elect body ( the church) by the Holy Spirit ( 1 Co. 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect. Thus, there is bothy God's initiative and our responce in election ( Rom. 8:29; 2 Pet. 1:1-11).
May God bless, Golfjack
Paul's teaching about election involves the following truths:
1. Election is Christocentric, election of humans occurs only in union with Jesus Christ. He Chose us in Him ( Eph. 1:4). Jesus Himself is first of all the elect of God. Concerning Jesus, God states, Here is my serrvant whom I have chosen ( Mtt. 12:18; 1 Peter 2:4). Christ as the elect, is the foundation of our election. Only in union with Christ do we become members of the elect ( Eph. 1:4, 6-7, 9-10, 12 -13). No one is elect apart from union with Christ through faith.
2. Election is in Him...through his blood ( Eph. 1:7). God purposed before creation ( Eph. 1:4) to form a people through Christ's redemptive death on the cross. Thus election is grounded in Christ's sacrificial death to save us from our sins ( Acts 20:28; Rom. 3:24-26).
3. Election is primarily corporate, an election of people ( Eph 1:4-5, 7, 9). The elect are called the Body of Christ ( 4:12), my church ( Matt. 16:18), a people belonging to God ( 1 Pet. 2:9), and the bride of Christ ( Rev. 19:7). Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons with the Body of Christ, the true church ( Eph. 1:22-23).
4. Election to salvation in Christ is offered to all, but becomes actual for particular persons contingent on their repentance and faith as they accept God's gift of salvation in Christ ( Eph. 2:8; 3:17; Rom. 1:16; 4:16). At the point of faith, the believer is incorporated into Christ's elect body ( the church) by the Holy Spirit ( 1 Co. 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect. Thus, there is bothy God's initiative and our responce in election ( Rom. 8:29; 2 Pet. 1:1-11).
May God bless, Golfjack
U
unred typo
Guest
JM said:
Begging to differ. It has everything to do with the topic. Let these sink into your ears:
Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? says the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24But when the righteous turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All his righteousness that he has done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die.
Ignoring the fact that God calls some wicked, based solely on their own works, and some righteous who can turn from their righteousness, won’t make it disappear. These verses speak volumes against your nice neat little construct of interwoven distorted scripture. Add to that that God has no pleasure in the choices of the wicked and desires that they turn from their evil, while supposedly holding the key to unlock their wills to do rightly, and you have an irreconcilable conflicted flaw in your thinking.
:smt073
U
unred typo
Guest
Re: reply
Where did you come up with that, Golfjack? It was great. I agree.
:smt038 :smt023
golfjack said:
Where did you come up with that, Golfjack? It was great. I agree.
:smt038 :smt023
unred typo said:
My quip was intended to have a serious element.
Being born of God is His choice. As we are born of our earthly parents, we have no say in the matter. We are just born with absolutely no choice and so it is with God.
But once, having been given the gift of eternal life, (ie born of God) we are given free will. And again, as it is with natural children, so it is with those born of God - to have a free will.
So, we can choose to walk in faith, so abiding in Christ and bringing forth the fruit of the Spirit by which we are born. Or we can walk in self-righteousness believing that fruit is what invokes the Spirit, rather than the other way around.
Now, no matter what we choose, the life which we were predestined to be given can never be taken away. But the choice that we make as to what we do with the gift of life will have eternal consequence.