An Ode to Free Will

[JM]

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=27098

 

[unred typo]

Re: reply

From my notes at the Bible training center I attended. You see, Word of faith isn't all that bad.
May God bless, Golfjack

I don’t even know what ‘Word of Faith’ actually teaches, or what their doctrinal statement of faith might read like. It’s only what you write here that I react to, either favorably or unfavorably. I don’t usually care to get into condemning different denominations since it seems all have some good and evil in them, in varying degrees. I doubt if you can find two thinking people in the same church that agree on every issue. Only when a group of people have been collectively brainwashed do you find heads bobbing in complete unison.
:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :roll:

 

[unred typo]

My quip was intended to have a serious element.

Being born of God is His choice. As we are born of our earthly parents, we have no say in the matter. We are just born with absolutely no choice and so it is with God.

But once, having been given the gift of eternal life, (ie born of God) we are given free will. And again, as it is with natural children, so it is with those born of God - to have a free will.

So, we can choose to walk in faith, so abiding in Christ and bringing forth the fruit of the Spirit by which we are born. Or we can walk in self-righteousness believing that fruit is what invokes the Spirit, rather than the other way around.

Now, no matter what we choose, the life which we were predestined to be given can never be taken away. But the choice that we make as to what we do with the gift of life will have eternal consequence.

You are correct to believe that we have no choice in the timing of God’s decision of when or if we will be born again. The only choice we have is whether we will do what he requires to ready ourselves for this event. If we as the bride of Christ do not submit to his will, how can we expect to give birth to the spiritual fruit of our union with him and his word within us? We cannot be the rebellious, stubborn, willful child-bride who runs away with our many other lovers and expect to be blessed by our bridegroom with a spiritual offspring, the new birth.

The promise of predestination into God’s eternal reward is only given to those who remain faithful to their vows. You can’t be disobedient to your heavenly calling and ignore your commitment to Christ and still remain heir to the promises. God has only pre-determined that those who are faithful in obedience to him through Christ (by confession and repentance from sin against his words) will be given eternal life. Are you saying that we can promise to love, honor and obey him and then follow every evil desire we run into, not repent of our sins and then return to him and still be called faithful and still inherit eternal life?
:-?

 

[unred typo]

Mutzrein, we are causing ourselves confusion by our mixing metaphors. My fault. Look at what Jesus taught. The only place we see him telling people that they must be born again is to Nicodemus. There it is in reference to entering heaven, not understanding the kingdom. We do not find another lesson on how to be born of the Spirit, or hear him say that before we can understand the gospel we must be born again. He doesn’t preach this to the crowds who follow him. He doesn’t try to explain the correct doctrines like the ‘trinity’ or ‘being born again’ even to his disciples. He doesn’t encourage people to read the correct version of scriptures. He doesn’t mention corrupt manuscripts that are to be avoided.

He preaches repentance, humility, love, mercy, forgiveness for one another. This is what he told his disciples to preach just as Peter does in:

1 Peter 1:22-25 Seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that you love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides for ever.
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower thereof falls away:
But the word of the Lord endures for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The word of God, the word by which the gospel is preached to you is the word made flesh and the word communicated to us, the Son of God himself, not the Bible. The word of God made flesh (by which the good news of forgiveness that can be ours was preached) is Jesus who lives today and lives forever to communicate the message of God to us, to make it real in our lives. It is by loving one another that we are born of the Spirit. This is the truth that we are to obey from the Spirit. This the word that Jesus preached. This is what God requires of us if we are going to be his children.

Every day the Spirit is with every one of us to lead us into this truth of love for one another. Every day we run into situations where we can choose to love and forgive or we can choose to hate and condemn. This is what determines when we will be born again. When we can love with unfeigned love, real, honest care and concern for others and forgive with genuine merciful lack of condemnation toward those who wrong us, we are making a place for the seed of God to grow in us. Choosing to follow the Spirit is choosing life.

Today’s Pharisees have made it all about doctrine and knowing the right definitions but Jesus said it was all about love, pure and simple.

:smt054 :smt055 :smt049 :smt060

I see we strayed off topic, since the OP was the opposite of love for one another and more about the love of doctrine. Let me steer it back toward the topic.

If we did not have free will to do what Jesus asks of us, why would he ask us to do it? If we can’t understand without being born again, and only he can make us born again, then it would be his fault, not ours that we do not obey because we truly cannot do it. The truth is that we can do it and the times that we mess up are learning experiences if we repent. We can learn to walk by faith or we can fall and never try to get up. We can choose to love one another or we can choose to ridicule and despise our brothers.

 

[Solo]

Those who think that they can ready themselves to receive the Spirit of God prior to being born again, are putting the cart before the horse. Until one is born again, they are dead in their trespasses unable to see, hear, think, taste, smell, touch, anything spiritual. It is only by the quickening of the Holy Spirit that one can repent and believe, and it is only the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that will enable one to grow into being sanctified (becoming clean) until glorification. Anything other than this teaching is false.


BTW How many individuals that have been born into this world had a free will choice whether they were born or not?

Answer. NONE

 

[Vic C.]

BTW How many individuals that have been born into this world had a free will choice whether they were born or not?

Answer. NONE

Oh, I smell that can o' worms already. :

 

[Solo]

Oh, I smell that can o' worms already. :

:

 

[unred typo]

Those who think that they can ready themselves to receive the Spirit of God prior to being born again, are putting the cart before the horse. Until one is born again, they are dead in their trespasses unable to see, hear, think, taste, smell, touch, anything spiritual. It is only by the quickening of the Holy Spirit that one can repent and believe, and it is only the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that will enable one to grow into being sanctified (becoming clean) until glorification. Anything other than this teaching is false.
BTW How many individuals that have been born into this world had a free will choice whether they were born or not?
Answer. NONE

You have some scripture to go with those Solo-isms? Show me where it says you must be born again to do what Jesus commands. Show me where it says that you must be born again before you can receive the Spirit. You are dead in your trespasses and sins until you repent of them, period. When you repent, you are forgiven and given life. This life is in his Son, and as long as you are in his Son, you remain in life.

Being born again is a horse of a different color. You must be born again before you can go to live in heaven.

 

[Vic C.]

unred, I believe Michael may be saying that one will not even know or understand what Jesus requires of us unless we are "born again" or "born from above". I believe Scripture supports that. We could not understand Parables unless we were born again.

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

 

[Solo]

You have some scripture to go with those Solo-isms? Show me where it says you must be born again to do what Jesus commands. Show me where it says that you must be born again before you can receive the Spirit. You are dead in your trespasses and sins until you repent of them, period. When you repent, you are forgiven and given life. This life is in his Son, and as long as you are in his Son, you remain in life.

Being born again is a horse of a different color. You must be born again before you can go to live in heaven.

Is Jesus Christ God Almighty?
Is the Holy Spirit God Almighty?
I am born again, are you?
God lives inside of me and I am a temple of God, does God live inside of you, and are you a temple of God?

 

[unred typo]

Is Jesus Christ God Almighty?
Is the Holy Spirit God Almighty?
I am born again, are you?
God lives inside of me and I am a temple of God, does God live inside of you, and are you a temple of God?

I asked for scripture supporting your view and instead you ask me questions. Is it because you fear that the scriptures you use to prove your notions do not really say what you claim they do?

Scripture, Solo. Not a hundred irrelevant quotes cut and paste from someone’s Bible word search, please. That tactic has been exposed. Just give me a couple that you feel are the best to support your view, please.

Since we have gone to another page here, I'll repost what you wrote:

Those who think that they can ready themselves to receive the Spirit of God prior to being born again, are putting the cart before the horse. Until one is born again, they are dead in their trespasses unable to see, hear, think, taste, smell, touch, anything spiritual. It is only by the quickening of the Holy Spirit that one can repent and believe, and it is only the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that will enable one to grow into being sanctified (becoming clean) until glorification. Anything other than this teaching is false.
BTW How many individuals that have been born into this world had a free will choice whether they were born or not?

I would like to see how you get this from scripture.
Answer. NONE