[_ Old Earth _] Another Fool Judge

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Another Fool Judge II

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[Wordsmyth]

So, if Troy is not a myth, does that mean the Greek Gods exist?
:roll:

Which nations are you talking about when you mention the Universal Flood? Care to share their names?

 

[peace4all]

alright.. In answer to your question


Biblical dates (I Kings 6:1, Gal 3:17, various generation lengths given in Genesis) place the Flood 1300 years before Solomon began the first temple. We can construct reliable chronologies for near Eastern history, particularly for Egypt, from many kinds of records from the literate cultures in the near East. These records are independent of, but supported by, dating methods such as dendrochronology and carbon-14. The building of the first temple can be dated to 950 B.C. +/- some small delta, placing the Flood around 2250 B.C. Unfortunately, the Egyptians (among others) have written records dating well back before 2250 B.C. (the Great Pyramid, for example dates to the 26th century B.C., 300 years before the Biblical date for the Flood). No sign in Egyptian inscriptions of this global flood around 2250 B.C.


Accurate history of China begins nearly 3,000 B.C.. The Shu-King historic record of China, shows that King Yao came to the throne in 2356 B.C., 11 years before the start of Noah's flood, and ruled China for many years after the flood. During the reign of Yao, the Shu King reports that the Hwang Ho River (which drains mountains and a great basin in Sinkiang province) had excessive floods for three generations. Here again, there was no break in history. The Chinese nation was not wiped out. Its own records show that it continued in existence right through the period of Noah's flood

Yes, Mayn nations and many groups of people, from all over the world, claimed to have had a massive flood, either world wide, or local, that wiped out a majority of humans.
However, they range from, people riding an "ark" with animals, to people being sealed in caves, hiding in hollow tree trunks, and people survivng on mountain tops. Now, unless noah and his 7 companions managed to have this flood, and then pop up offspring in china (which never was wiped out), egypt (also never wiped out) and then, each spot that also has a similar flood story (ireland, the aztecs, the incas, nrothern american tribes, germanic tribes) within a few years, Its pure amazing.


also, this link provides ALOT of evidence, that other floods occur, and people right about them, but, that this flood, is not "noah's" flood
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_noah.htm

I will do more research on this, When I have more time.. But to answer, about me:

No, I do not believe Jesus Christ is the one and true messiah. I do believe a Jesus like person existed, Named Jesus (abotu 8 of them actually) all around that time, However, I do not believe in the miracles etc.

I do not believe the Bible to be authentic, considering it has been retranslated hundreds of times, allowing anyone to change or enter whatever they wish in, I also do not believe in the "magic" that occurs in the bible.

I am an atheist, Yet I am also a realist. If God or Jesus, or Budha, or Gnashea or any other religous figure were to appear, world wide, and prove his/her or its existance, I would repent(or whatever the true religions form of repenting is) and then become a follower of that religion. However, with no actual physical evidence, in over 2000 years, I just can't believe it.

 

[Wordsmyth]

Well, I was asking Doppleganger because he seems so convinced about it, but your answer is valid for me.

The best hypothesis so far is a massive disaster in Mesopotamia, with both the Euphrates and Tigris flooding their surrounding region. For people living in the region, that must have certainly looked like a universal catastrophe.

 

[peace4all]

I requested some peopel I knwo to take a look at the question, and here is the most common reply i received

Question begging.

There are numerous assumptions made in this question that are simply not true:

1. never did a "whole generation of People and nations world wide" speak of a flood. The cultures that DID happen to have flood-myths had them at different points in history, and certainly not at the same time. Heck, the Aborigonese flood myth (which WASN'T global) was said to have occured 40,000 years ago.

2. not all flood myths speak of a "universal flood". Most of them say that they were LOCAL floods.

3. not all of them have the same elements, not even relatively.

4. they do not have the same descriptions.

5.they do not all have a noah character.

6. they do not all have a boat.

and just to round it off, this whole question is fallacious because it is a blatent appeal to popularity. Yes, the majority view CAN be wrong. Prime example: a majority of people at one time thought the earth was flat.

Quote:
I want an answer Anthropologically for this question. Meaning its a Cultural Science question 1st! Smart Guy.


a loaded, fallacious cultural science question first.

Quote:
And dont give me Universal amnesia or delusion!


Frankly, I would refuse to answer this because it is a loaded question, and point out where it is loaded with premises you disagree with.

1.) Ask him to prove that all cultures everywhere had a great flood at the same time, and have a common Noah mythology. Bushpeople, pygmies, mountain tribes... from every continent in every region. Unless he proves that such a thing is true, this is a waste of time.

However,

2.) Floods are common throughout most regions. I'd say it isn't too far off the mark to assume that a number of terrible floods have occurred at some point in history in most regions. But unless these people had international communications systems that linked every culture together, and left a good record of a worldwide flood at the same time, I'd say it seemed to many early ethnocentric populations as if the world was coming to an end at the time of their flood.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

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[cubedbee]

This is why this forum doesn't work, and why people can't come to the knowledge of God. I put down rules but you dont obey them! I Say answer this->? question but you ignore it. You have no discipline!!!

Dude, this is a public forum that you do not own. You don't get to make rules. You can politely make requests of other posters (you weren't polite), but if you want to have people follow your rules,then go create your own forum.

This Forum is filled with Athesists and and warmongers!?!

Yes, I've seen so much planning for war taking place around here. :roll:

Even Science has guidelines, empirical methods, peer reviews, okkams razor, etc ... but all you do is ignore it! I looked over your posts, I haven't read them. I know you didnt answer the question or questions i asked you too.

The English language has rules too, rules which you are blatantly ignoring. Nobody's critizing you for failing to follow basic rules of English--why do you think you have the right to critisize people for not following your rules, rules that you and you alone came up with and nobody else agreed to?

I'm gonna try 1 more Post 2 see if a man of science can 1) follow the rules 2) provide answers to the questions i ask and 3) explain to me in terms i can understand w/o just a link. This Post is over I wont read it. I probably already know what your going to say anyways. And i am seriously thinking about leaving the forum though i'm new. This isn't fun or educational. Its shooting fish in a barrel!

You're not shooting anything, your making rather meaningless posts that seem to consist mainly of critisizing posters of this forum. Good luck at your new forum, you haven't contributed anything here yet and you won't be missed. Hope you find someplace that is run exactly according to your own personal 'rules'

 

[pasta911]

Re: Another Fool Judge II

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How Can A Whole Generation of People & Nations World Wide speak of a Universal Flood with relatively the same elements, using the same descriptions, with the same common denominators like a Noah type figure heading the boat, be all wrong? I want an answer Anthropologically for this question. Meaning its a Cultural Science question 1st! Smart Guy. And dont give me Universal amnesia or delusion!

!

Many (not all) of the world's religions have an ancient flood story for a much simpler reason: floods and tsunamis are real phenomena. Obviously, if floods are real, then it stands to reason that people will concoct stories about them.

It does not follow logically that the absurd Biblical world-covering flood must have happened; not only are globe-spanning floods not found in all the world's religions, but it does not take much imagination to see how a regional flood could be exaggerated to a global flood by an imaginative storyteller.

In science (and in many fields of philosophy), there is a principle called Occam's Razor, which demands that we do not invent extra entities when we can explain something quite adequately without them. This is a fine example of a place where Occam's Razor should be applied.

Fallacy watch:

False Cause fallacy (assuming that if many cultures have flood stories, these stories must have been caused by the Biblical Flood story being true, as if there aren't other possible causes).

 

[pasta911]

Re: Another Fool Judge II

---------------------------------------------------
Do you Believe in Jesus Christ as The One and True Messiah?

Etymologically speaking, that includes phases using euphemisms and slang for terms we can understand 'like get the lead out' = means = 'move it' and acrostics that lock a verse into its intended meaning ----->
Do you Believe in the authenticity of Bible?

THIS IS WHAT I'M REALLY THINKING
----------------------------------------
I dont care if your Opinion is there is no flood!
Who are you anyways!?!
Science cant undo want has been written by every culture on the planet since known time! Remember Troy was Myth too once and science poo-pooed it! Until a crazyman named Schlieman read the Iliad!

If this were true, it would be easily explained by the fact that there was considerable sharing of religious beliefs in the ancient period. However, it is not even true! There are massive disparities between the creation myths of different religions.

There are at least five different types of creation myth:

Creation through Emergence: a pre-existing chaotic universe or netherworld gains form and substance in a gradual process. This type of creation myth is usually suggestive of slow maturation, or growth, as opposed to a single titanic event. The process might even be on-going and eternal (much like evolution). Zuni religious writings describe "unfinished creatures", slowly developing and growing "more manlike". Australian aboriginal creation myths describe primitive human-like creatures haphazardly forming out of plants and animal parts and then being moulded into finished humans by the gods. These types of religions (of which the American Navajo religion is yet another example) tend to emphasize the spirit of communion with the land and with the animals, since we came from them. This is a sharp contrast with Christianity and its past doctrines of human dominion over the animal kingdom.


Creation through Birth: the Earth or the universe is quite literally born, either from a primordial mother or from two divine parents. The Aztec and Babylonian religions are examples of this type of creation myth.


Creation from a Cosmic Egg: the universe hatches from an egg. This egg may be created by the gods, or it may be a god, or it may contain gods, along with the raw material necessary for the universe. The Chinese god Pan Gu was hatched from such an egg. In the Hindu religion, the universe was created through the breaking of a cosmic egg, which had shone as brilliantly as a sun and from which Brahma emerged.


Creation by "Earth divers": the Earth is retrieved from primordial waters. It may be either retrieved intact or in pieces which are to be assembled by god(s). Many ancient central European tribal religions incorporated this type of creation myth.


Creation by Supreme Being: a deity predates the universe. His power is absolute, and he creates the universe from his mind. Supreme deities are usually sky gods, for which the remoteness of the heavens generates awe and a sense of inscrutability among believers. Creationists invariably assume this to be the only type of creation myth.

If you examine the world's various creation myths, you may notice a very interesting fact: many of them are more easily reconciled with biology and cosmology than you might expect. In fact, the "Creation through Emergence" story is startlingly similar to evolution theory, and "Creation from a Cosmic Egg" is strongly reminiscent of Big Bang theory. Moreover, a very common thread in various mythologies is the pre-existent chaos, in which a universe already exists before the "Creation" but it is formless and dark, and the gods merely take this pre-existing matter and transform it into the modern world. This is a sharp contrast to the creationist assumption that creation myths are all predicated upon a supreme being who creates the universe with a mere thought.

Fallacy watch:

False Cause fallacy (assuming that if the world's religions all had similar creation myths, which is not true, then it could only have been caused by those myths being true, as if there is no other possible explanation).

Do you Believe in Jesus Christ as The One and True Messiah?

Do you take the myth of Hercules seriously?

Of course not; almost no one takes the myth of Hercules seriously, and most people would chuckle at someone who actually believed there really was a Hercules with the strength of a hundred men, a Medusa whose visage could turn a man to stone, or an Apollo whose Sun chariot blazed across the sky every day, or any of the other characters from ancient Hellenistic mythology. If beliefs are a sacred cow, they are a particular kind of sacred cow where your cow is sacred but your neighbour's cow isn't.

Ultimately, one person's belief is invariably another person's silly superstition. The question is not whether one should "dare" to be dismissive of another person's beliefs, but whether his criticisms of those beliefs are valid. And that is a question which is left totally unanswered by this "how dare you" criticism.

As an aside, some people will modify this argument by appending some attack on the manner in which you attack peoples' beliefs, eg- "you are too rude", "you are sarcastic and insulting", etc. However, this is merely another type of fallacy, in which the style of a message is deemed to affect the truth or falsehood of its substance.

 

[peace4all]

This is why this forum doesn't work, and why people can't come to the knowledge of God. I put down rules but you dont obey them! I Say answer this->? question but you ignore it. You have no discipline!!! This Forum is filled with Athesists and and warmongers!?! Even Science has guidelines, empirical methods, peer reviews, okkams razor, etc ... but all you do is ignore it! I looked over your posts, I haven't read them. I know you didnt answer the question or questions i asked you too. I'm gonna try 1 more Post 2 see if a man of science can 1) follow the rules 2) provide answers to the questions i ask and 3) explain to me in terms i can understand w/o just a link. This Post is over I wont read it. I probably already know what your going to say anyways. And i am seriously thinking about leaving the forum though i'm new. This isn't fun or educational. Its shooting fish in a barrel!

Here is the problem. YOu give me a loaded question. When I attempt to answer it, you say I didnt answer the question. How am i supposed to do a "cultural analysis" of something that is impossible?! I posted multiple answers, hoping that atleast 1 of them would suit you. Did you bother to read them, or were they all just immediatley wrong because I didnt say
"oops, I am wrong, I am a fool, the flood must have happened since I decided to ignore the evidence"

Lets see a really good answer to your question

Let's review:
[quote:107a3]

Quote:
How Can A Whole Generation of People & Nations...

These myths did not all spring from the same generation. The claimant is using the word 'generation' to make the reader believe that all flood stories were generated during the same era, thus giving validity to a single flood event. This is of course, not the case. Since he/she made such a claim, they have the burden to prove it.

Quote:
...World Wide...

This is blatant dishonesty. The claimant is attempting to fool the reader into believing that a flood is globally recognized, but it is not. There are a handful of flood myths from different places in the world but there is no such thing as a 'World Wide' flood story that all cultures share in common.

Quote:
...speak of a Universal Flood...

Not all of the flood stories speak of a universal flood. This is another example of apologetic dishonesty, and another example of an unfounded claim that must be proven by the claimant.

Quote:
...with relatively the same elements...

The only element that is universally the same in all flood stories is water, and it's hardly a mystery why. This is simply more deception on the part of the claimant.

Quote:
...using the same descriptions...

How many ways can one describe water?

Quote:
...with the same common denominators like a Noah type figure heading the boat...

This would be interesting if it were true, but it isn't. In any case, there is no reason to get excited if more than one flood story makes heroes of the flood survivors.

Quote:
...be all wrong?

All of these stories can be wrong for the same reason that stories of faeries, dragons, unicorns, and other cross cultural myths can be wrong.

Quote:
I want an answer Anthropologically for this question.

The claimant is demanding an anthropological answer when he/she offered no anthropological (or even mythological) evidence for their claim. If they really cared for the truth they would have researched this before making the post. They clearly did not do that.

Quote:
Meaning its a Cultural Science question 1st! Smart Guy.

If the claimant had a clue about the cultural science at question, their claim would have never been posited. It's up to him/her to back up the ludicrous claims being made.

Quote:
And dont give me Universal amnesia or delusion!

Here's the crux of it. Theists are generally happy to accept any flood story or legend that comes from other religions and cultures around the world, but why would they be? This doesn't help the Noah story at all. According to the biblical account in Genesis chapters 7 and 8, Noah and his family were to be the ONLY survivors because God made a special covenant with him (Gen 7:17-18). Accepting that other peoples, of various religions and cultures around the world, also survived this global flood is a slap in the face to the biblical claim. [/quote:107a3]

 

[Wordsmyth]

I looked over your posts, I haven't read them. I know you didnt answer the question or questions i asked you too.

So you didn't read the posts, but know what is in them? Man, where do I learn to be a psychic like you? :roll:

 

[peace4all]

^^ its because the only way to answer such a loaded question, is to basically say " I am wrong, you are right, the flood happened"


For some reason, evidence, and analysis of the question, or anything else, isn't enough for this guy :-(