Vic C.
Member
Q-Revelation 4:4 says...
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
These 24 elders represent the Church. Since they do, a pre-tribulation rapture can only explain their existence.
A-Actually, this can not be confirmed by the Bible or by any of the many conservative scholars. Some say they represent the redeemed ones of the OT and NT, that the 'church' is made up of the 'elect' from both. Others say that that the elders are angelic beings that were created by God as part of His government. No one of them can actually agree as to who these elders are.
There is evidence that the elders are representatives of those redeemed from Israel and the OT. Notice that the word elder (presbuteros), as it is used in Revelations, is used only in reference to the 24 elders. It is used 12 times in Revelations. In other parts of the Bible, the word is used in different ways. It is used to refer to tribal leaders in the OT. And in
the NT, it referred to the leaders of the synagogues and the leaders of the early church. It was also used to describe the OT men of Faith.
1 Chronicles 24 gives us the best description of who these elders are.(keep in mind the white raiment they were wearing in Rev.4:4) Notice also that they were sitting down. This was a bold statement by John. The Jews of his time knew that Levitical priests never sat down; for their work was never done. They were too busy sacrificing animals. Remember this sacrifice cannot atone for sin; it could only cover sin for a year, until the next Day of Atonement. But remember, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, covers them forever. Hence, their work was done and they were now able to sit.
About the white raiment; the high priest discarded his priestly robes and pot on instead 'the Holy linen cloth' before they entered the Holy of Holies. They were to wear this only in the presence of God. And there is more. Note the significance of the crowns of gold they are wearing. The crowns represent victory. There are two types of crowns mentioned in the Bible.
One is the crown of a ruler (king) the other, the crown of an over comer, a victor.
etc...
Q-We all agree that there is a restrainer holding back evil in the world today. That restrainer is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit indwells each believer. Restraint is achieved through the faith of the saints. At the Rapture, the church is removed from the world and along with it goes the Holy Spirit. This occurs before the Day of the Lord.
2 Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2 Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2 Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Well from what Paul says, it is the Holy Spirit who holds back the anti-christ. The Spirit is removed before the Day of the Lord. That Day occurs at the beginning of the tribulation. And when the Spirit is removed, the church is also removed too. This can only happen if there is a pre-tribulation rapture.
A-We have deduced that the Day of the Lord does not begin at the beginning of the 70th. week; it occurs at the opening of the seventh seal. Lets look at Revelations 6:12-13.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
It is after these events that the seventh seal is opened. These verses explain the cosmic disturbances Jesus describes in Matthew.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Now for the restrainer. First of all, he is not removed before the Day of the Lord. He is removed mid-trib; when the desolation of the Temple takes place.
2 Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Remember what Paul said in 2 Thes. 2:6-9. The restrainer is associated not with the whole seven year period, but with the Great Tribulation. (God's wrath)
Now who is this restrainer? It is not the Holy Spirit of the government; it is Michael, the Archangel. These facts may clear thing up. Michael is known by Jewish and Christians scholars as having a very special relationship to Israel. A guardian relationship.
Dan 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia...
...Dan 10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
Dan 10:21 But I will show thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
Michael's name means, "Who is like God?" That is in contrast to Satan, who wishes to be "like the Most High".
Also, Revelation 12 tells of a war that occurs in Heaven.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven...
...Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
I stated in another post that this woman represents Israel. The nation that eventually yielded up Christ to the world. Remember also that Israel will not be raptured and will be persecuted during the great tribulation. (Rev. 12:13) The Bible tells us that it is Michael who will be 'taken out of the way'.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there
was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Let it be known that the phrase 'stand up' in the above verse literally means 'stand still'.
When does this occur? Lets look at the verse before 12:1.
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
This refers to the Anti-christ. And what about this palace between the seas, in the glorious mountain? It could only refer to Jerusalem, which sits between the Mediterranean and Dead seas. It occurs when the Temple is desecrated, which happens in the middle of Daniel's 70th. week. In Jude, there is also a reference to Michael, referring to his 'guardian' status toward Israel.
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Remember at the beginning of this answer, I quoted 2 Thes. 2:7...here it is again, using the NKJV.
"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way."
This verse affirms what Daniel said in 12:1. There is so much more on Michael and his relationship to Israel, but I have taken too much time already. ; - )
Q-I believe the Bible should be taken literal. With this understanding, one must come to the conclusion that a pre-tribulation rapture is the only possible position. After all, if the Bible says it, it must be the truth.
A-This is circular reasoning at best. Everyone who is either, pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, etc. believes this to be true. Only with the scrutiny and discernment of God and His Holy Spirit guiding you to the truth, can the truth be found. The object of this Q and A was to point out two things...
1-There seems to be holes in the pre-trib view of the rapture
2-I believe that not only does a pre-wrath view plug these holes, it also has the most Biblical foundation in which to base the Rapture on.
I'm sure there will be many more questions raised by this. I can only say at this point you get a copy of the book, The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin Rosenthal. This is where my information for these posts came from.
That and the Bible, of course! ;-)
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
These 24 elders represent the Church. Since they do, a pre-tribulation rapture can only explain their existence.
A-Actually, this can not be confirmed by the Bible or by any of the many conservative scholars. Some say they represent the redeemed ones of the OT and NT, that the 'church' is made up of the 'elect' from both. Others say that that the elders are angelic beings that were created by God as part of His government. No one of them can actually agree as to who these elders are.
There is evidence that the elders are representatives of those redeemed from Israel and the OT. Notice that the word elder (presbuteros), as it is used in Revelations, is used only in reference to the 24 elders. It is used 12 times in Revelations. In other parts of the Bible, the word is used in different ways. It is used to refer to tribal leaders in the OT. And in
the NT, it referred to the leaders of the synagogues and the leaders of the early church. It was also used to describe the OT men of Faith.
1 Chronicles 24 gives us the best description of who these elders are.(keep in mind the white raiment they were wearing in Rev.4:4) Notice also that they were sitting down. This was a bold statement by John. The Jews of his time knew that Levitical priests never sat down; for their work was never done. They were too busy sacrificing animals. Remember this sacrifice cannot atone for sin; it could only cover sin for a year, until the next Day of Atonement. But remember, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, covers them forever. Hence, their work was done and they were now able to sit.
About the white raiment; the high priest discarded his priestly robes and pot on instead 'the Holy linen cloth' before they entered the Holy of Holies. They were to wear this only in the presence of God. And there is more. Note the significance of the crowns of gold they are wearing. The crowns represent victory. There are two types of crowns mentioned in the Bible.
One is the crown of a ruler (king) the other, the crown of an over comer, a victor.
etc...
Q-We all agree that there is a restrainer holding back evil in the world today. That restrainer is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit indwells each believer. Restraint is achieved through the faith of the saints. At the Rapture, the church is removed from the world and along with it goes the Holy Spirit. This occurs before the Day of the Lord.
2 Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2 Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2 Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Well from what Paul says, it is the Holy Spirit who holds back the anti-christ. The Spirit is removed before the Day of the Lord. That Day occurs at the beginning of the tribulation. And when the Spirit is removed, the church is also removed too. This can only happen if there is a pre-tribulation rapture.
A-We have deduced that the Day of the Lord does not begin at the beginning of the 70th. week; it occurs at the opening of the seventh seal. Lets look at Revelations 6:12-13.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
It is after these events that the seventh seal is opened. These verses explain the cosmic disturbances Jesus describes in Matthew.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Now for the restrainer. First of all, he is not removed before the Day of the Lord. He is removed mid-trib; when the desolation of the Temple takes place.
2 Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Remember what Paul said in 2 Thes. 2:6-9. The restrainer is associated not with the whole seven year period, but with the Great Tribulation. (God's wrath)
Now who is this restrainer? It is not the Holy Spirit of the government; it is Michael, the Archangel. These facts may clear thing up. Michael is known by Jewish and Christians scholars as having a very special relationship to Israel. A guardian relationship.
Dan 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia...
...Dan 10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
Dan 10:21 But I will show thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
Michael's name means, "Who is like God?" That is in contrast to Satan, who wishes to be "like the Most High".
Also, Revelation 12 tells of a war that occurs in Heaven.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven...
...Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
I stated in another post that this woman represents Israel. The nation that eventually yielded up Christ to the world. Remember also that Israel will not be raptured and will be persecuted during the great tribulation. (Rev. 12:13) The Bible tells us that it is Michael who will be 'taken out of the way'.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there
was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Let it be known that the phrase 'stand up' in the above verse literally means 'stand still'.
When does this occur? Lets look at the verse before 12:1.
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
This refers to the Anti-christ. And what about this palace between the seas, in the glorious mountain? It could only refer to Jerusalem, which sits between the Mediterranean and Dead seas. It occurs when the Temple is desecrated, which happens in the middle of Daniel's 70th. week. In Jude, there is also a reference to Michael, referring to his 'guardian' status toward Israel.
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Remember at the beginning of this answer, I quoted 2 Thes. 2:7...here it is again, using the NKJV.
"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way."
This verse affirms what Daniel said in 12:1. There is so much more on Michael and his relationship to Israel, but I have taken too much time already. ; - )
Q-I believe the Bible should be taken literal. With this understanding, one must come to the conclusion that a pre-tribulation rapture is the only possible position. After all, if the Bible says it, it must be the truth.
A-This is circular reasoning at best. Everyone who is either, pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, etc. believes this to be true. Only with the scrutiny and discernment of God and His Holy Spirit guiding you to the truth, can the truth be found. The object of this Q and A was to point out two things...
1-There seems to be holes in the pre-trib view of the rapture
2-I believe that not only does a pre-wrath view plug these holes, it also has the most Biblical foundation in which to base the Rapture on.
I'm sure there will be many more questions raised by this. I can only say at this point you get a copy of the book, The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin Rosenthal. This is where my information for these posts came from.
That and the Bible, of course! ;-)
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