Bible Study Anybody interested in some Bible study ?

[Spirit Driven]

Hi Group,
I have a link here for you to an Online Copy of the Concordant Literal New Testament what an awesome Book.

The New Testament.... a word for word translation from the Original Greek into English, just a straight translation into English, no interpretations made.
Just the correct English word from the original Greek word.

A great read......

http://www.concordant.org/version/html.html


Grace and Peace to you

 

[Gendou Ikari]

The Concordant Literal New Testament is probably the best Bible available and my favorite.

 

[scutato]

That's pretty awesome. Is there a Concordant Literal Old Testament as well?

EDIT: Apparently so , but not finished yet...will keep reading. Thanks for the link!

 

[Poke]

There's some good in it.

Words like "Hell" "Angel" and "Deacon" don't belong in the Bible. So, it was good to see that Concordant Literal New Testament doesn't have any of these fabricated terms.

It can be rough reading. For example, why does it say the Jews "kill" Jesus instead of saying the jews "killed" Jesus, as practically every other translation says? Doesn't English grammar require the "ed"? Otherwise, it is implied that the jews kill Jesus as an ongoing process. How is it literal when it changes the meaning?

As with most modern translation, it appears to suffer from zionist corruption. Another example, the Bible says that those who belong to Christ are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise (Galatians 3:29). The Concordant Literal New Testament changes the word "heirs" to "enjoyers of the allotment." This is misleading because "allotment" implies something that's partial, as if Jews are children of Abraham, which is a lie. Besides, adding "enjoyer" is adding a word that does not exist in the original text. How is it literal when it adds words?

Mat 21:38 is rendered "Yet the farmers, perceiving the son, said among themselves, 'This is the enjoyer of the allotment. Hither! We should be killing him and have the enjoyment of his allotment.'" At least, the CLNT is consistent. But, the word is "heir"! Christians are the heirs of the promise to Abraham, not merely enjoyers of a portion.

If you want a literal NT translation, stick to something like Young's.

 

[scutato]

From what I read about it, they took each Greek word and chose an English word which meant the same thing (or as close to the same as possible), and did simple replacement. Sometimes they added suffixes and such to make it a readable translation, but not necessarily always.

It doesn't appear, to me at least, that the issues you brought up were due to any hidden agenda (or zionism, as you call it).

As an aside, what is this zionism you speak of? As far as I can tell, zionists are those of the Zionist Movement, a response to growing anti-semitism before the re-establishment of Israel. Do you mean to use 'zealot' instead?

"Zionist" doesn't make much sense to me in your context, Zion being the mountain Jerusalem is built upon. Not attacking you or anything, just confused

 

[jgredline]

Scutato
Don't fall for this lie of this translation or of spirit driven who preaches another Gospel. I copied and pasted Solos rebutle to her post on another thread.
Here is the link. I would suggest you read through it. Sprit driven is a cultist who believes in universal salvation.
Here is the original ongoing thread. Feel free to join in
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=24888
Blessings to you and yours.
Jg

Spirit Driven wrote:
And Now let us read the same scripture from a correctly translated Bible, that translates directly from the Original Greek into English, with out making an interpretation influenced by a Doctrine a translater was influenced by....

31 "Now, whenever the Son of Mankind may be coming in His glory, and all the holy messengers with Him, then shall He be seated on the throne of His glory,
32 and in front of Him shall be gathered all the nations. And He shall be severing them from one another even as a shepherd is severing the sheep from the kids.
33 And He shall be standing the sheep, indeed, at His right, yet the kids at the left.
34 "Then shall the King be declaring to those at His right, 'Hither, blessed of My Father! Enjoy the allotment of the kingdom made ready for you from the disruption of the world.
35 For I hunger and you give Me to eat' I thirst and you give Me drink; a stranger was I and you took Me in;
36 naked and you clothed Me; infirm am I and you visit Me; in jail was I and you come to Me.'
37 "Then the just will be answering Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive Thee hungering and nourish Thee, or thirsting and we give Thee drink?
38 Now when did we perceive Thee a stranger and took Thee in, or naked and we clothed Thee?
39 Now when did we perceive Thee infirm, or in jail, and we came to Thee?'
40 "And, answering, the King shall be declaring to them, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it to one of these, the least of My brethren, you do it to Me.'
41 "Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers.
42 For I hunger and you do not give Me to eat; I thirst and you do not give Me drink;
43 a stranger was I and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; infirm and in jail and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then shall they also be answering, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive you hungering or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in jail, and we did not serve you?'
45 "Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.'
46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

As you can see the Righteouse enjoy Eonion life with Christ until the consumation of Gods plan, the final enemy that God does away with is death, when all are recalled into being by God from the second death.
You need a correctly translated Bible to even come close to understanding the truth of the Gospel...... not what somebody eleses misinterpretatation has been taught to you every day of your life, so that you cannot believe anything else is possible......even though that teaching contradicts all the scripture posted above..... remember only liars contradict themselves....
does your theology contradict itself ?

Grace and Peace to you

The translation claimed as being the true translation is AE Kouch's Concordant Literal New Testament, which is called the Universalist Bible, and has been rendered in the last 80 years. with a Universalist perspective. I don't expect for you to submit to the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, as you have been taken in by the deception of the god of this world. You are also in violation of this forum's rules concerning universal reconciliation. It is not a topic allowed on this forum, nor is it within the tenets of the Christian faith. Sorry. It was also interesting to see that the Concordant LIteral New Testament uses the word "Thee" instead of "you" in it's translation, just as Young's Literal Translation. Why?

Anyway, let's look at the original Greek Text and the English translations of the Authorized KJV, the Young's Literal, the American Standard, and AE Knochs Concordant Literal New Testament.

English: King James Version
Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1550/1894)
English: Young's Literal Translation
English: New American Standard Bible
English: AE Knochs Concordant Literal New Testament

Matthew 25:31-46

31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: KJV
31 οταν δε ελθη ο υιος του ανθρωπου εν τη δοξη αυτου και παντες οι αγιοι αγγελοι μετ αυτου τοτε καθισει επι θρονου δοξης αυτου GkTR
31. `And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory; YLT
31. "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. NASB
31 "Now, whenever the Son of Mankind may be coming in His glory, and all the holy messengers with Him, then shall He be seated on the throne of His glory, CLNT

32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: KJV
32 και συναχθησεται εμπροσθεν αυτου παντα τα εθνη και αφοριει αυτους απ αλληλων ωσπερ ο ποιμην αφοριζει τα προβατα απο των εριφων GkTR
32. and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats, YLT
32. "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; NASB
32 and in front of Him shall be gathered all the nations. And He shall be severing them from one another even as a shepherd is severing the sheep from the kids. CLNT

33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. KJV
33 και στησει τα μεν προβατα εκ δεξιων αυτου τα δε εριφια εξ ευωνυμων GkTR
33. and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left. YLT
33. and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. NASB
33 And He shall be standing the sheep, indeed, at His right, yet the kids at the left. CLNT

34. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: KJV
34 τοτε ερει ο βασιλευς τοις εκ δεξιων αυτου δευτε οι ευλογημενοι του πατρος μου κληρονομησατε την ητοιμασμενην υμιν βασιλειαν απο καταβολης κοσμου GkTR
34. `Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world; YLT
34. "Then the King will say to those on His right, `Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. NASB
34 "Then shall the King be declaring to those at His right, 'Hither, blessed of My Father! Enjoy the allotment of the kingdom made ready for you from the disruption of the world. CLNT

35. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: KJV
35 επεινασα γαρ και εδωκατε μοι φαγειν εδιψησα και εποτισατε με ξενος ημην και συνηγαγετε με GkTR
35. for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me; YLT
35. `For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; NASB
35 For I hunger and you give Me to eat' I thirst and you give Me drink; a stranger was I and you took Me in; CLNT

36. Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. KJV
36γυμνος και περιεβαλετε με ησθενησα και επεσκεψασθε με εν φυλακη ημην και ηλθετε προς με GkTR
36. naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me. YLT
36. naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' NASB
36 naked and you clothed Me; infirm am I and you visit Me; in jail was I and you come to Me.' CLNT

37. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? KJV
37. τοτε αποκριθησονται αυτω οι δικαιοι λεγοντες κυριε ποτε σε ειδομεν πεινωντα και εθρεψαμεν η διψωντα και εποτισαμεν GkTR
37. `Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink? YLT
37. "Then the righteous will answer Him, `Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? NASB
37 "Then the just will be answering Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive Thee hungering and nourish Thee, or thirsting and we give Thee drink? CLNT

38. When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? KJV
38. ποτε δε σε ειδομεν ξενον και συνηγαγομεν η γυμνον και περιεβαλομεν GkTR
38. and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around? YLT
38. `And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? NASB
38 Now when did we perceive Thee a stranger and took Thee in, or naked and we clothed Thee? CLNT

39. Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? KJV
39. ποτε δε σε ειδομεν ασθενη η εν φυλακη και ηλθομεν προς σε GkTR
39. and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee? YLT
39. `When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' NASB
39 Now when did we perceive Thee infirm, or in jail, and we came to Thee?' CLNT

40. And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. KJV
40. και αποκριθεις ο βασιλευς ερει αυτοις αμην λεγω υμιν εφ οσον εποιησατε ενι τουτων των αδελφων μου των ελαχιστων εμοι εποιησατε GkTR
40. `And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did [it]. YLT
40. "The King will answer and say to them, `Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' NASB
40 "And, answering, the King shall be declaring to them, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it to one of these, the least of My brethren, you do it to Me.' CLNT

41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: KJV
41. τοτε ερει και τοις εξ ευωνυμων πορευεσθε απ εμου οι κατηραμενοι εις το πυρ το αιωνιον το ητοιμασμενον τω διαβολω και τοις αγγελοις αυτου GkTR
41. Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; YLT
41. "Then He will also say to those on His left, `Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; NASB
41 "Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers. CLNT

42. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: KJV
42. επεινασα γαρ και ουκ εδωκατε μοι φαγειν εδιψησα και ουκ εποτισατε με GkTR
42. for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink; YLT
42. for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; NASB
42 For I hunger and you do not give Me to eat; I thirst and you do not give Me drink; CLNT

43. I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. KJV
43. ξενος ημην και ου συνηγαγετε με γυμνος και ου περιεβαλετε με ασθενης και εν φυλακη και ουκ επεσκεψασθε με GkTR
43. a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me. YLT
43. I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' NASB
43 a stranger was I and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; infirm and in jail and you did not visit Me.' CLNT

44. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? KJV
44. τοτε αποκριθησονται αυτω και αυτοι λεγοντες κυριε ποτε σε ειδομεν πεινωντα η διψωντα η ξενον η γυμνον η ασθενη η εν φυλακη και ου διηκονησαμεν σοι GkTR
44. `Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee? YLT
44. "Then they themselves also will answer, `Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' NASB
44 "Then shall they also be answering, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive you hungering or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in jail, and we did not serve you?' CLNT

45. Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. KJV
45. τοτε αποκριθησεται αυτοις λεγων αμην λεγω υμιν εφ οσον ουκ εποιησατε ενι τουτων των ελαχιστων ουδε εμοι εποιησατε GkTR
45. `Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of these, the least, ye did [it] not to me. YLT
45. "Then He will answer them, `Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' NASB
45 "Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.' CLNT

46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. KJV
46. και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιν αιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον GkTR
46. And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' YLT
46. "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." NASB
46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." CLNT

The Greek Word αιωνιον is an adjective and has three definitions. They are:

1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

Young's Literal Translation translates αιωνιον as "age-during", and Concordant Literal New Testament translates αιωνιον as "eonian".

The word αιωνιον is used 69 times in the new testament. It is translated 42 times as "eternal", and 25 times as "everlasting". The same word is used when Jesus speaks of "eternal" life, "everlasting" fire, and "everlasting "punishment". The complete counsel of scripture dictates that the word αιωνιον transcends created time, and is representative of that existance not bounded by time; in other words eternal, everlasting, forever, without beginning or end.

Here is some information pertaining to A E Knoch's CLNT:

http://www.cogscreations.net/thingsonmymind/clt.htm
http://www.1john57.com/literalerror.htm
http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/scriptures/CLNT.htm

 

[scutato]

Scutato
Don't fall for this lie of this translation or of spirit driven who preaches another Gospel. I copied and pasted Solos rebutle to her post on another thread.
Here is the link. I would suggest you read through it. Sprit driven is a cultist who believes in universal salvation.
Here is the original ongoing thread. Feel free to join in
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=24888
Blessings to you and yours.
Jg

Well now, this just makes me grumpy. What I've seen from Spirit Driven so far is rather disturbing, but I thought a word-for-word translation from the Greek would be more on the mark. UR is one doctrine that bothers me in particular.

Thankfully I hadn't had time to learn more about this translation, thanks for the warning! I owe you one

 

[Vic C.]

OK people, lets stay on topic while I clean up another thread... again, 8-)

This is misleading because "allotment" implies something that's partial, as if Jews are children of Abraham, which is a lie. Besides, adding "enjoyer" is adding a word that does not exist in the original text. How is it literal when it adds words?

Mat 21:38 is rendered "Yet the farmers, perceiving the son, said among themselves, 'This is the enjoyer of the allotment. Hither! We should be killing him and have the enjoyment of his allotment.'" At least, the CLNT is consistent. But, the word is "heir"! Christians are the heirs of the promise to Abraham, not merely enjoyers of a portion.

If you want a literal NT translation, stick to something like Young's.

Poke, we agree! :bday: Translations like the Concordant and the Rotherham Bibles are translated by proponents of UR and will of course, tell you they are strict word for word translations, but as you have pointed out, they are not.

YLT is my fav when it comes to word for word... Green's LITV is very good too and it's language is more contemporary.

Now, let's all respect the No UR rule please.

 

[Preacher Boy]

I have done fine with my KJV till now and by God's Grace I will never go to another for my final authority.

Just My 2 Cents :o

 

[Vic C.]

No problem with that, PB. Note that the KJ along with the two Bibles I mentioned were all translated from the Textus Receptus.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

You do realize that A.E. Knoch wasn't a Universalist when he translated the Concordant Literal New Testament. I'm pretty sure of this anyway. I believe he became a Universalist because of the overwhelming evidence.

And please, when you try and point out what is wrong with the Concordant Literal New Testament, don't simply pit it against the KJV and say because they disagree the KJV is correct.

 

[cyberjosh]

From what I read about it, they took each Greek word and chose an English word which meant the same thing (or as close to the same as possible), and did simple replacement. Sometimes they added suffixes and such to make it a readable translation, but not necessarily always.

I (voluntarily) work as a moderator for a guy who owns a Hebrew website who is doing the same thing with the old testament. He is only assigning one English word per Hebrew word, no more diverse translations. He is currently translating Genesis, since he has only just recently started after completing his revisions to his lexicon (which is excellent BTW - explaining the pictograph nature of each word). The site is http://www.ancient-hebrew.org if you want to check it out. Check out the link that says "Mechanical Translation".

 

[Solo]

A.E. Knoch contradicts himself and has definite translation errors in his Concordent Literal New Testament to fit his bias:


This is his second contradiction; all of his contradictions can be found at http://www.1john57.com/knoch.htm

• CONTRADICTION (2): A. E. Knoch also ridiculously contradicts himself once again on pages 114 - 115 in regards to "endless" life, then changes to "eonian" life. On page's 114 - 115, Knoch writes: [list:8c02a]
  "Our Lord is not only the Resurrection but the Life (John 11:25). Not only could He call back Lazarus from the tomb to a life like that he had before, and thus be his resurrection, but, in the days to come, He will call Lazarus once again, to a life indissoluble and incorruptible, and thus become his Life. That is why, especially in relation to Lazarus has already experienced His power in resurrection, but he waits in death until His future presence before he makes His acquaintance as his Life. His resurrection was a passing occurrence, but the life that he will receive will be enduring, constant, incorruptible, eonian. For death the cure is resurrection, but for dying we need life. The crisis of death is a single act and so is resurrection.......The long drawn out activity of death in dragging men down to the grave is put in contrast with the endless activity of life in imparting incorruption, power and glory."

So which one is it? Eonian? Or is it endless? Knoch specifically make's a differentiation between the two terminologies. Is Knoch implying that "eonian = endless?" If so, then he is blatantly inconsistent throughout his entire book. [/list:u:8c02a]Excerpt retrieved from http://www.1john57.com/knoch.htm

 

[Solo]

Here is A. E. Knoch's fifth contradiction found at http://www.1john57.com/knoch.htm

Notice that A. E. Knoch does not recognize Jesus Christ as God:

• CONTRADICTION (5):On page 130 near the bottom of the page, A.E. Knoch writes:[list:54930]"That, despite His supernal dignities, the disposition of Christ was one of love and compassion, and utterly lacking in selfishness and pride, is shown by His self-abasement. He empties Himself. What this means is clearly indicated by the change in form.
  He was not God and He did not become a slave. But He had God's form, yet He took a slave's form."

Knoch admits that Jesus Christ is not God. This is purely the spirit of antichrist.

John 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1John 2:23 "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:..." [/list:u:54930]

 

[scutato]

Hmmm.

I don't exactly agree with Knoch, but what he said in that passage doesn't really disagree with the Scripture references you gave.

Knoch apparently believes Jesus is not God, but he doesn't say Jesus is not the Christ. Also, the fact that he doesn't believe Jesus is God doesn't mean he doesn't honor Jesus as the Son of God.

My personal belief is that Jesus and the Father are not exactly the same being, but they are both God (part of the Godhead, as people tend to call it - I think that part's beyond our understanding). Separating the two makes a bit more sense as I read the Bible, but it doesn't answer all the questions (of course, neither does the Trinity idea). Example: why pray to the Father if you are the Father?

Three more examples: the verses you provided. John refers to them as separate beings, as well.

 

[Solo]

I didn't believe that Jesus was God until I was born again.

 

[scutato]

I didn't believe that Jesus was God until I was born again.

I suppose it's a good thing that I also believe Jesus is God, then.

 

[Vic C.]

... And please, when you try and point out what is wrong with the Concordant Literal New Testament, don't simply pit it against the KJV and say because they disagree the KJV is correct.

If you read my posts concerning Bible translations, you will see I NEVER compare translations to the KJV for validity. I am basically a TR person; not a KJ only person.

 

[Vic C.]

My personal belief is that Jesus and the Father are not exactly the same being, but they are both God (part of the Godhead, as people tend to call it - I think that part's beyond our understanding). Separating the two makes a bit more sense as I read the Bible, but it doesn't answer all the questions (of course, neither does the Trinity idea). Example: why pray to the Father if you are the Father?

Exactly. That IS what Binitarians and Trinitarians believe about the Godhead. Jesus is the Son. Both the Father and the Son are One; the Godhead.

 

[scutato]

Indeed, I read an article yesterday and realized my perception on the Trinity was wrong - what I thought it was is actually called modalism. But why give it a fancy name?!