Are They Crazy' Or What ?

[Lewis]

BALTIMORE (AP) -- United Methodist clergy in Baltimore are asking for the denomination's highest legal authority to review a decision to reappoint a transgender pastor to lead a city congregation.
Bishop John R. Schol decided last week to continue the appointment of the Rev. Drew Phoenix as pastor of St. John's United Methodist Church.
Mr. Phoenix, 48, has led St. John's for nearly five years. In the past year, he changed his name from Ann Gordon and received medical treatment to become a man.
The Methodist church bans sexually active homosexual clergy but has no rules about transgender pastors.
Clergy of the Baltimore-Washington Conference of the United Methodist Church have asked for a decision of law on whether transgender people are eligible for appointment as pastors, said Wayne DeHart, the conference's director of human resources.
Under church procedure, Bishop Schol would issue a decision within a month, which would be reviewed by the Judicial Council, the Methodists' highest court. The council next meets in October. Its decisions are final, according to the United Methodists' Web site.
UMAction, a conservative Methodist organization, has called for the General Conference, an international Methodist body that meets next year, to develop rules on transgender pastors.
"I think instinctively most church people would say there are some theological problems with gender change, but they don't know how to articulate the arguments and expect the church to offer a teaching on the subject," UMAction director Mark Tooley said.
http://washtimes.com/metro/20070527-103641-9013r.htm

 

[destiny]

Good to see you again, Lewis!

Yes, it's crazy and just another sign of the last days we are living in. The Lord told us it would be this way.
In all of this madness the Lord has preserved for Himself a people; I want to stay close to Him!

 

[Vic C.]

Hey Lewis,

didn't you know, everyone is crazy... except us. :-D

 

[Relic]

Hey Lewis,

didn't you know, everyone is crazy... except us. :-D

you mean "some" of us..... 8-)

and some are just darn flakes.


.

 

[Lewis]

Good to see you too' destiny. But they have lost their minds letting a transgender even try to preach the Word of God. Excuse my expression' but they are idiots.

 

[jgredline]

Here is a commentary from al mohler

What do you do when your pastor shows up in a new gender? That question is now faced by a United Methodist church in Maryland, and the issue of transgender persons is soon to confront all churches and denominations.

As The Baltimore Sun reports, the Rev. Ann Gordon is now presented as Rev. Drew Phoenix. The paper sets the issue clearly:

A year ago, the Rev. Ann Gordon received her routine reappointment as minister of a Charles Village Methodist congregation. Yesterday - after undergoing a sex-change operation and taking on a new symbolic name - the Rev. Drew Phoenix received another one-year contract to head St. John's United Methodist Church.

The paper also reported that the "reappointment" of the minister came after a 2 1/2-hour meeting with Methodist clergy "as well as an emotional open session." In the end, the bishop of the Baltimore-Washington Conference of the United Methodist Church decided that the church's moral code, known as the Book of Discipline, did not preclude the appointment of transgender persons as pastors.

Before turning to the ecclesiastical and theological issues at stake, we should note the way the minister explained her motivation -- to do this for others. "This is about more than me . . . . This is about people who come after me, about young people in particular who are struggling with their gender identity. I'm doing this for them." What she is doing is leading her congregation into an illusion and her denomination into an explosive controversy.

The illusory nature of this transformation becomes clear in another section of the paper's report:

"The gender I was assigned at birth has never matched my own true authentic God-given gender identity, how I know myself," Phoenix said. "Fortunately today God's gift of medical science is enabling me to bring my physical body in alignment with my true gender."

This pastor claims that she knows her "own true authentic God-given gender identity" to be different than her own body. The ancient Gnostics would understand this repudiation of the body, but not historic Christianity. Christians have believed that the body is a gift from God, for believers the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Despising the body to the point of repudiating birth gender is a posture in direct conflict with the Bible and the historic Christian tradition.

There can be no question that some persons suffer excruciating gender confusions. But the answer to this must be the embrace of birth gender as a central dimension of God's will for the individual. Christians must understand that gender --the sex of an individual -- is a part of God's glory in creation. God's own verdict on the creation of humanity as male and female, both made in His image, was that is was "very good." The transgender temptation is a repudiation of God's own verdict on His creation and His plan for humanity.

The emergence of this phenomenon is a direct consequence of the massive social, moral, legal, and ideological shifts that mark our times. The concept of autonomous individualism has led persons to believe that each of us holds the protean ability to create and re-create ourselves into whatever or whomever we wish -- and that no one outside the autonomous self has any right to set limits on this self-definition and transformation. The therapeutic revolution has deluded modern Americans into thinking that patterns of basic rebellion against God are means of self-liberation and therapy. The law has been transformed into an instrument of social revolution, even as many legal authorities claim that traditional definitions of marriage, sexuality, and gender are artifacts of an oppressive and patriarchal age.

Added to all this, the sexual revolution has led to a society fixated on sex and reluctant to draw any clear boundaries. A worldview of nearly absolute non-judgmentalism leads the larger society to consider sexuality and sexual issues to be beyond the bounds of common concern.

The saddest part of the Sun's report comes when the pastor claims that "today God's gift of medical science is enabling me to bring my physical body in alignment with my true gender." This is an illusion of incredible tragedy. Modern medicine is truly capable of many wonders, but it cannot turn a woman into a man, nor a man into a woman. Doctors may perform drastic surgery and prescribe hormone therapies, but they cannot make a woman into a man. Rev. Drew Phoenix will be no more capable of biological fatherhood than Rev. Ann Gordon. Those who overlook this fact are hiding from reality.

Subsequent to its first report, the Sun reported that local Methodist clergy have asked for a judicial opinion from the church's highest legal authority, questioning Bishop John R. Schol's decision to reappoint the pastor. UMAction, an organization of conservative United Methodists, called upon their church to offer moral teaching on this pressing issue:

"I think instinctively most church people would say there are some theological problems with gender change, but they don't know how to articulate the arguments, and expect the church to offer a teaching on the subject," said UMAction director Mark Tooley.

"The issue of gender identity is not directly about sexual practice and really requires some different theological arguments," he said.

As one concerned pastor lamented, "Medical technology has gotten ahead of us." That is true for virtually all churches and denominations. Now is the time for Christian congregations, schools, and denominations to offer clear moral teaching and sound theological reflection on the gift of gender and the challenge of transgender persons.

The challenge could show up at your church tomorrow.

 

[Lewis]

I'll say it one more time. THEY HAVE LOST' THEIR MINDS.

 

[Guest]

In other words - those who are agreeing with this, within the Methodist church, are saying that God makes mistakes and that modern medicine is able to 'fix the mistakes' that God makes.

What God do they serve?

 

[Rick W]

In other words - those who are agreeing with this, within the Methodist church, are saying that God makes mistakes and that modern medicine is able to 'fix the mistakes' that God makes.

What God do they serve?

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

 

[Drew]

In other words - those who are agreeing with this, within the Methodist church, are saying that God makes mistakes and that modern medicine is able to 'fix the mistakes' that God makes.

What God do they serve?

Well, as you might expect, I disagree with you all on this.

The quoted statement above is not a good argument. If someone is born with an oak tree groiwng out of the side of their head, we fix it. This is what people do who are compassionate and seek the best for their fellow man - they fix things if they can. No sane person would say "well, God gave that fellow the oak tree and God does not make mistakes".

It is entirely possible that there are (thankfully) rare cases where a person is born with a brain wired to be a woman and yet has the body of a man. Just as God allows people to be born with heart defects, He may allow this as well.

We should do the best we can to determine that indeed the person seeking this sort of surgery really does have a brain "wired" to be a gender opposite to that of their body.

If this is the case, and if the person requests treatment, we should act to alleviate suffering and improve quality of life for such people. This could include gender surgery.

I suspect that many of you are implicitly getting this issue mixed up with the homosexuality question. They are different in very important ways. As I understand the Scriptures, homosexual practice is clearly identified as sin. I see nothing about gender transformation. Just because its extremely unusual and just because it involves issues of sexuality does not make it equsivalent to homosexual behaviour.

 

[Guest]

Well, as you might expect, I disagree with you all on this.

The quoted statement above is not a good argument. If someone is born with an oak tree groiwng out of the side of their head, we fix it. This is what people do who are compassionate and seek the best for their fellow man - they fix things if they can. No sane person would say "well, God gave that fellow the oak tree and God does not make mistakes".

It is entirely possible that there are (thankfully) rare cases where a person is born with a brain wired to be a woman and yet has the body of a man. Just as God allows people to be born with heart defects, He may allow this as well.

We should do the best we can to determine that indeed the person seeking this sort of surgery really does have a brain "wired" to be a gender opposite to that of their body.

If this is the case, and if the person requests treatment, we should act to alleviate suffering and improve quality of life for such people. This could include gender surgery.

I suspect that many of you are implicitly getting this issue mixed up with the homosexuality question. They are different in very important ways. As I understand the Scriptures, homosexual practice is clearly identified as sin. I see nothing about gender transformation. Just because its extremely unusual and just because it involves issues of sexuality does not make it equsivalent to homosexual behaviour.

Drew - how about not making assumptions? Forgive me, but I know the difference between homosexuality and being trans-gendered.

And while your answer sounds compasssionate, gives off warm-fuzzies, and probably makes you feel good - there is nothing in your answer that is proven - or atleast you have not provided evidence to suggest that people's brains are wired differently than the physical bodies that they are given.

My statement was referring to a quote from the article:

"today God's gift of medical science is enabling me to bring my physical body in alignment with my true gender."

Really? How does this person KNOW what their 'true gender' is?

You arguement is that the body should be reformed to fit the brain. What if the body is correct, but the brain is wrong? Shouldn't the brain be re-wired?

Is giving in to the temptations of the flesh, really being compassionate?

 

[Drew]

Drew - how about not making assumptions? Forgive me, but I know the difference between homosexuality and being trans-gendered.

I attempted to be careful to express my view as a suspicion and I did not intend to single you out, although I can see why you may have concluded this given my quoting of you. I shall try to be more clear in the future.

And while your answer sounds compasssionate, gives off warm-fuzzies, and probably makes you feel good - there is nothing in your answer that is proven - or atleast you have not provided evidence to suggest that people's brains are wired differently than the physical bodies that they are given.

My post clearly stated that I was describing a possible state of affairs. I never went beyond that.

My statement was referring to a quote from the article:

"today God's gift of medical science is enabling me to bring my physical body in alignment with my true gender."

Really? How does this person KNOW what their 'true gender' is?

I agree with you. It is important that we get at the factual truth about this.

You arguement is that the body should be reformed to fit the brain. What if the body is correct, but the brain is wrong? Shouldn't the brain be re-wired?

I would agree that it might be better to re-wire the brain. I am no doctor, but I suspect that re-working the body is easier than re-working the brain.

Is giving in to the temptations of the flesh, really being compassionate?

Is it a "temptation of the flesh" for someone who is born with man's brain and a woman's body to want that situation resolved? I would think not. Again, I am not saying that this in fact happens - I am just acknowledging its possibility.

 

[jgredline]

Well, as you might expect, I disagree with you all on this.

I would expect nothing less from you. :roll:

 

[Guest]

Is it a "temptation of the flesh" for someone who is born with man's brain and a woman's body to want that situation resolved? I would think not. Again, I am not saying that this in fact happens - I am just acknowledging its possibility.

I suppose anything is possible. Someone could be born with a brain wired to think they were a monkey, but the body of a human. Should we "acknowledge the possibility"?

Seriously, if you believed in evolution - would this not be a possibility?