Are you saved?

[thessalonian]

Obviously, some of us may believe that works are a RESULT of faith (based on James 2:17).\

Can you show me a verse that says faith alone saves.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (the faith) not of yourselves (it is Christ's faith - Gal. 2:16): it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are justified by the faith of Jesus CHrist.

It is by faithand it is not even our faith - it is Christ's.

Hey folks - when it comes to justification take your faith and works and flush em! :o

Doesn't it say "by GRACE ye are SAVED through faith.". Faith comes about because of grace, not the other way around. We are saved by grace ALONE. Faith is as much a product of grace as any works we do that are God working in and through us. Eph 3:20, 21, Eph 3:20, 21, eph 3:20, 21. Why do you deny the power of God working in and through men AV? Why do you render it powerless. If we are in Christ there is no need to flush anything as long as we recognize that it is his power in us and through us that brings it about.

 

[thessalonian]

Simple,

I guess the problem I have with the common Protestant perspective is that it put's God's saving us at a point in time. There is no doudt a moment where we come under his grace. At that point we are said to be "saved" by both you and I. That moment for me is what Eph 2:8-9 is speaking of. Before that moment our works are of 0 value. I do not agree with him that that passage is talking about Christ's faith. It is talking about our faith that is brought about by the grace which is the true object of our salvation. That faith comes about by a series of events orchestrated by God in enlightening us and opening us up to him through his creation (all creation declares the glory of God), sending people to preach to us about Jesus Christ, even the very natural means of eating, drinking and coming to realize that they are provided by God above, our parents and their faith brings us to faith. It all comes about because of GRACE! The issue I have with salvation in a single point in time is that I think it misses the greater picture of grace and how God has worked throughout history to bring YOU AND I AND AV to the point where we say Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior! God is outside of time and space so putting him in the context of time I think is neccessary but it can skew how we think about him and how he works.

In some sense God does save us at the instance we come to accept him. This is a critical time. Yet, he also in another sense saved those who will be saved 2000 years ago. The distinction needs to be made however that the grace earned on that cross needs to be brought forward and applied to our lives. Further I don't see grace as a one time shot (not saying that you do but I know some protestants do). I see grace as an ongoing thing by which we continue in his salvation and thus this is where works come in. This is the crux of the issue between those who believe OSAS and my viewpoint which says that we "were saved", are being "saved" and "will be saved". God's grace continues to keep us on the path. But it is not irresistable such that our free will is taken away. We can fall from grace. If this happens it is because we can in fact stop believing as the Galations did in Gal 5. This is the slippery slope of sin and backsliding that we by his grace must avoid.

This is where works come in. God gives us the grace to do them. When we do them we are stengthened in virtue against vice (sin). One who acts charitably toward another gains strength against greed and selfishness. One who has humility (which counteracts all vice actually) bears up to false witness against him, rather than lashing out in violence. One who practices temperance gains stength against gluttony. Sin is rooted out by grace in this manner so that we do not continue down that slippery slope.

Blessings

 

[Simple Mind]

I guess the problem I have with the common Protestant perspective is that it put's God's saving us at a point in time. There is no doudt a moment where we come under his grace. At that point we are said to be "saved" by both you and I. That moment for me is what Eph 2:8-9 is speaking of. Before that moment our works are of 0 value.

Despite you saying you have a problem with it, what you wrote sounds very compatible with the Protestant perspective, especially the part about the works being of 0 value until after being "saved" by "grace" in both our vocab.

I do not agree with him that that passage is talking about Christ's faith. It is talking about our faith that is brought about by the grace which is the true object of our salvation. That faith comes about by a series of events orchestrated by God in enlightening us and opening us up to him through his creation (all creation declares the glory of God), sending people to preach to us about Jesus Christ, even the very natural means of eating, drinking and coming to realize that they are provided by God above, our parents and their faith brings us to faith. It all comes about because of GRACE!

No question God takes the initiative to call us and bring the gift of grace.

The issue I have with salvation in a single point in time is that I think it misses the greater picture of grace and how God has worked throughout history to bring YOU AND I AND AV to the point where we say Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior! God is outside of time and space so putting him in the context of time I think is neccessary but it can skew how we think about him and how he works.

I will be a bit of a stickler and say God is outside and inside time. God knows we are limited to travel in one direction in time and it is clear He works within time/history in a way we can understand. So I don't have a problem thinking of the moment when we "received (note past tense) the spirit of sonship/adoption" as Paul stated in Rom 8:15. Having said that, I'm in agreement with the fact that grace continues to work in us.

In some sense God does save us at the instance we come to accept him. This is a critical time. Yet, he also in another sense saved those who will be saved 2000 years ago. The distinction needs to be made however that the grace earned on that cross needs to be brought forward and applied to our lives. Further I don't see grace as a one time shot (not saying that you do but I know some protestants do). I see grace as an ongoing thing by which we continue in his salvation and thus this is where works come in. This is the crux of the issue between those who believe OSAS and my viewpoint which says that we "were saved", are being "saved" and "will be saved". God's grace continues to keep us on the path.

I'm not familiar with OSAS - I'll do a search and learn when I have time. But whatever else happens with God's saving work and grace, there is a very clear point in time when we "received the spirit of sonship/adoption". That is the point of faith according to Gal 3:23-26 - "Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus".

But it is not irresistable such that our free will is taken away. We can fall from grace. If this happens it is because we can in fact stop believing as the Galations did in Gal 5. This is the slippery slope of sin and backsliding that we by his grace must avoid.

Irresistable grace is not a concept I can easily accept when I look at the Scriptural evidence which point to human choice. There is no agreement even within Protestant believers. But that's a whole other topic.

This is where works come in. God gives us the grace to do them. When we do them we are stengthened in virtue against vice (sin). One who acts charitably toward another gains strength against greed and selfishness. One who has humility (which counteracts all vice actually) bears up to false witness against him, rather than lashing out in violence. One who practices temperance gains stength against gluttony. Sin is rooted out by grace in this manner so that we do not continue down that slippery slope.

All that seems consistent with works being the result of grace and faith. And we as believers certainly need to encourage each other more in the direction of humility and other Biblical virtues. :smt023


I dunno, it almost sounds like we actually agree! :-D

Much blessings,
Lou