Ascending into heaven in a cloud

[Shilohsfoal]

1 Corinthians 15:50 KJV: Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

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How can the two witnesses survive having ascended into heaven before the last trump?
Scripture shows they are still only flesh and blood when they ascend into heaven in a cloud.

They ascend into the cloud here.

Revelation 11:12 KJV: And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

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The last trump sounds after they have ascended into the heavens in a cloud.

Revelation 11:15 KJV: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

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Peter said the heavens will burn with a fervent heat of the day of the Lord. How can those two prophets survive the heat when they are not immortal. They are only flesh and blood.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

How can they survive ascending into heaven in a cloud when they are not immortal?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

2 Peter 3:10 KJV: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

It's going to be hot hot hot up there. The heavens burn with a fervent heat and the two witnesses are only elements to be burned.
If only they had read the gospel and done the things Jesus commands in the gospel, they could have had everlasting life.
Insted they chose to do the opposite of everything Jesus teaches in the gospel and then they go up in smoke.
No soup for you.

 

[Free]

You talk a lot about the two witnesses, but it seems that you don't understand who sent them nor what it means for them to go up to heaven in a cloud.

Rev 11:3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed.
Rev 11:6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.
Rev 11:7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them,
Rev 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,
Rev 11:10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.
Rev 11:11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
Rev 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. (ESV)

It is the voice from heaven (Rev 10), the voice of God, that says the two witnesses are his. That means, the witnesses are God's witnesses, prophesying on his behalf. The beast kills them, which again shows that they belong to God. God breathes life into them three and a half days later and then calls them up to heaven, and they go up to heaven in a cloud. It's all fairly straight forward.

As for the cloud, it is reminiscent of Jesus's ascension:

Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. (ESV)

There is nothing to suggest that it has anything to do with a nuclear bomb.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

You talk a lot about the two witnesses, but it seems that you don't understand who sent them nor what it means for them to go up to heaven in a cloud.

Rev 11:3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed.
Rev 11:6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.
Rev 11:7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them,
Rev 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,
Rev 11:10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.
Rev 11:11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
Rev 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. (ESV)

It is the voice from heaven (Rev 10), the voice of God, that says the two witnesses are his. That means, the witnesses are God's witnesses, prophesying on his behalf. The beast kills them, which again shows that they belong to God. God breathes life into them three and a half days later and then calls them up to heaven, and they go up to heaven in a cloud. It's all fairly straight forward.

As for the cloud, it is reminiscent of Jesus's ascension:

Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. (ESV)

There is nothing to suggest that it has anything to do with a nuclear bomb.

The more you read about the abomination that causes Jerusalems desolation and the way it's described in scripture, the atomic bomb fits the description perfectly.

So what makes you think the two witnesses inherit the kingdom of God seeing they they are only flesh and blood when they ascend into heaven and they are not immortal?

1 Corinthians 15:50 KJV: Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

You talk a lot about the two witnesses, but it seems that you don't understand who sent them nor what it means for them to go up to heaven in a cloud.

Rev 11:3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed.
Rev 11:6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.
Rev 11:7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them,
Rev 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,
Rev 11:10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.
Rev 11:11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
Rev 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. (ESV)

It is the voice from heaven (Rev 10), the voice of God, that says the two witnesses are his. That means, the witnesses are God's witnesses, prophesying on his behalf. The beast kills them, which again shows that they belong to God. God breathes life into them three and a half days later and then calls them up to heaven, and they go up to heaven in a cloud. It's all fairly straight forward.

As for the cloud, it is reminiscent of Jesus's ascension:

Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. (ESV)

There is nothing to suggest that it has anything to do with a nuclear bomb.

And please don't compare these two murders to Christ.
Only the high priest ascends into the presence of God. One one else is allowed.

John 3:13 - Jesus and Nicodemus

No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven--the Son of Man.

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That's not where those two killers are going.

 

[Free]

The more you read about the abomination that causes Jerusalems desolation and th e say it's described in scripture, the atomic bomb fits the description perfectly.

But that doesn't fit with what the Bible says about the abomination that causes desolation.

So what makes you think the two witnesses inherit the kingdom of God seeing they they are only flesh and blood when they ascend into heaven and they are not immortal?

1 Corinthians 15:50 KJV: Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

They inherit the kingdom of God because God himself tells them to "come up here" and then provides a cloud for them to go to heaven. The language is quite plain and clear: "Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them."

As for them being flesh and blood, that isn't addressed, but it could very well be that when God breathed life into them, it is the same as when all believers will be changed when Christ returns. Of course, it doesn't say that, but it is a sufficient explanation. What we do know for certain, is that God calls them up to heaven and up to heaven they go.

And please don't compare these two murders to Christ.
Only the high priest ascends into the presence of God. One one else is allowed.

But that's not what I did, right? I only made the comparison of Jesus being taken up in a cloud to the two witnesses also going to heaven in a cloud. Jesus didn't go up in a nuclear bomb, so there is no reason to think the two witnessed did either. Apart from that, there still is no reason to think the two witnesses go to heaven because of a nuclear bomb. That doesn't make sense.

John 3:13 - Jesus and Nicodemus

No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven--the Son of Man.

biblehub.com

That's not where those two killers are going.

The two witnesses are going to heaven, because that is what the text plainly and clearly states.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

But that doesn't fit with what the Bible says about the abomination that causes desolation.


They inherit the kingdom of God because God himself tells them to "come up here" and then provides a cloud for them to go to heaven. The language is quite plain and clear: "Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them."

As for them being flesh and blood, that isn't addressed, but it could very well be that when God breathed life into them, it is the same as when all believers will be changed when Christ returns. Of course, it doesn't say that, but it is a sufficient explanation. What we do know for certain, is that God calls them up to heaven and up to heaven they go.


But that's not what I did, right? I only made the comparison of Jesus being taken up in a cloud to the two witnesses also going to heaven in a cloud. Jesus didn't go up in a nuclear bomb, so there is no reason to think the two witnessed did either. Apart from that, there still is no reason to think the two witnesses go to heaven because of a nuclear bomb. That doesn't make sense.


The two witnesses are going to heaven, because that is what the text plainly and clearly states.

So you believe Paul is wrong and flesh and blood does inherit the kingdom of God?

Because scripture shows these two prophets ascend into heaven as flesh and blood and not as being immortal.

Or maybe your not understanding the question?
I'm not sure how to change the question so you would understand it.

1 Corinthians 15:50 KJV: Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

biblehub.com

Tell me how you think Paul got it wrong.

1 Corinthians 15:52 KJV: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

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[Free]

So you believe Paul is wrong and flesh and blood does inherit the kingdom of God?

No. Nothing I said even implies that.

Because scripture shows these two prophets ascend into heaven as flesh and blood and not as being immortal.

Again, it says nothing about them remaining flesh and blood, and a reasonable assumption is that God breathing into them, resurrecting them, changes them in the same way that all believers will be changed when Christ returns. Regardless, we know two things for certain: 1) God calls them up to heaven, and 2) they go up to heaven. We don't need to know any more than that.

Or maybe your not understanding the question?
I'm not sure how to change the question so you would understand it.

1 Corinthians 15:50 KJV: Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

biblehub.com

Tell me how you think Paul got it wrong.

1 Corinthians 15:52 KJV: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

biblehub.com

No, I know exactly what you're asking and I never said nor implied that Paul got it wrong.

You don't seem to be considering the larger context, that in verse 3 God says they are his witnesses who will prophesy (on his behalf, obviously). Then the beast from the bottomless pit (either the antichrist or one acting on his behalf) kills them, further indicating that the two witnesses are from God. Then God raises them to life again, further indicating that they are his. Then, what Rev 11:12 says is very plain and clear--God calls the two witnesses to "Come up here!" and so they go up to heaven.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

No. Nothing I said even implies that.


Again, it says nothing about them remaining flesh and blood, and a reasonable assumption is that God breathing into them, resurrecting them, changes them in the same way that all believers will be changed when Christ returns. Regardless, we know two things for certain: 1) God calls them up to heaven, and 2) they go up to heaven. We don't need to know any more than that.


No, I know exactly what you're asking and I never said nor implied that Paul got it wrong.

You don't seem to be considering the larger context, that in verse 3 God says they are his witnesses who will prophesy (on his behalf, obviously). Then the beast from the bottomless pit (either the antichrist or one acting on his behalf) kills them, further indicating that the two witnesses are from God. Then God raises them to life again, further indicating that they are his. Then, what Rev 11:12 says is very plain and clear--God calls the two witnesses to "Come up here!" and so they go up to heaven.

God does not say they are his witnesses.
According to the text, they are witnesses of Christ thier lord.
The text even says that their Lord was crucified in that city. Their Lord is Christ.

But that isn't their problem. The problem is they ascend Into heaven before the last trump and that is when humans become immortal.
You are trying to say they are immortal before the last trump which would make Paul wrong.

Either you are wrong and they are not immortal or Paul is wrong and humans become immortal before the last trump.

1 Corinthians 15:51 - Where, O Death, is Your Victory?

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--

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1 Corinthians 15:52 - Where, O Death, is Your Victory?

in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

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1 Corinthians 15:53 - Where, O Death, is Your Victory?

For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

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So who is wrong, you or Paul?

 

[Free]

God does not say they are his witnesses.
According to the text, they are witnesses of Christ thier lord.
The text even says that their Lord was crucified in that city. Their Lord is Christ.

God or Jesus, it doesn't matter. It essentially means they are sent by God to prophesy on God's behalf.

But that isn't their problem. The problem is they ascend Into heaven before the last trump and that is when humans become immortal.
You are trying to say they are immortal before the last trump which would make Paul wrong.

Either you are wrong and they are not immortal or Paul is wrong and humans become immortal before the last trump.

1 Corinthians 15:51 - Where, O Death, is Your Victory?

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--

biblehub.com

1 Corinthians 15:52 - Where, O Death, is Your Victory?

in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

biblehub.com

1 Corinthians 15:53 - Where, O Death, is Your Victory?

For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

biblehub.com

So who is wrong, you or Paul?

Neither. At least you admit they ascend to heaven. The text says what it says--that they went to heaven--and God can do whatever he wants, including making people immortal and bringing them to heaven before Christ returns.

 

[Edward]

1 Corinthians 15:50 KJV: Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

biblehub.com

How can the two witnesses survive having ascended into heaven before the last trump?
Scripture shows they are still only flesh and blood when they ascend into heaven in a cloud.

They ascend into the cloud here.

Revelation 11:12 KJV: And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

biblehub.com

The last trump sounds after they have ascended into the heavens in a cloud.

Revelation 11:15 KJV: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

biblehub.com

Peter said the heavens will burn with a fervent heat of the day of the Lord. How can those two prophets survive the heat when they are not immortal. They are only flesh and blood.

Why did Elijah ascend into Heaven and not die?

So what, they will live and arrive at heaven. Are you forgetting that our God is Almighty and is in control of everything.

Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego survived the firey furnace.

2 Timothy 3:5
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.../

Be careful not to deny the power of God. Is anything too hard for Him?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

God or Jesus, it doesn't matter. It essentially means they are sent by God to prophesy on God's behalf.


Neither. At least you admit they ascend to heaven. The text says what it says--that they went to heaven--and God can do whatever he wants, including making people immortal and bringing them to heaven before Christ returns.

Then that would make you right and Paul wrong.
Thank you for letting me know that Paul's words are wrong.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Why did Elijah ascend into Heaven and not die?

So what, they will live and arrive at heaven. Are you forgetting that our God is Almighty and is in control of everything.

Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego survived the firey furnace.

2 Timothy 3:5
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.../

Be careful not to deny the power of God. Is anything too hard for Him?

I'm not sure where Elijah went.I do know Christ said no man has ascended into heaven, save himself.
He may have landed in munchkin land for all I know.
It doesn't really say he went to live with God.
I simply don't believe the two killers are equal to christ, the hight priest.

 

[Free]

Then that would make you right and Paul wrong.
Thank you for letting me know that Paul's words are wrong.

No, Paul is right. But Rev 11 clearly says the two witnesses went to heaven, leaving out the details because they don't really matter. They were God's witnesses, prophesied, were killed by the beast, raised from the dead by God, and then called up to heaven, where they went.

 

[Edward]

I'm not sure where Elijah went.
He may have landed in munchkin land for all I know.
It doesn't really say he went to live with God.
I simply don't believe the two killers are equal to christ, the hight priest.

Poor comprehension eh?
Munchkin land, lol.

Do you believe any of the Bible? You talk like you are not a Christian. Is that so?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

No, Paul is right. But Rev 11 clearly says the two witnesses went to heaven, leaving out the details because they don't really matter. They were God's witnesses, prophesied, were killed by the beast, raised from the dead by God, and then called up to heaven, where they went.

They may have went up into the sky in a cloud but they can not enter the kingdom of God according to Paul.
Flesh and blood csn not inherit the kingdom of God. And the two witnesses ascended up into the sky left before the last trump sounded meaning, according to Paul they they were still mortal and subject to the elements and a sky burning with a fervent heat.

For all you know, the voice calling them was the lamb calling them up to his presence.

Revelation 14:10 - The Three Angels and Babylon's Fall

he too will drink the wine of God's anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

biblehub.com

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Poor comprehension eh?
Munchkin land, lol.

Do you believe any of the Bible? You talk like you are not a Christian. Is that so?

I believe the Bible but not much on this forum.

John 3:13 KJV: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

For thousands of years no man had ever assended into heaven, untill the high priest which is christ ascended into the very presence of God himself. As of now Christ sits at the right hand of God.
I don't beleave these two men who spend thier lives killing and torturing men, women and children will ever do what only christ has done.
What reason would they have to go where only the high priest is allowed?

Do I believe they ascend into heaven (the sky) in a cloud? Yes I do. But not to be in the presence of God. I believe they are ascending into the sky to be in the presence of the lamb so that these verses may be fulfilled.

Revelation 14:10 - The Three Angels and Babylon's Fall

he too will drink the wine of God's anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

biblehub.com

Revelation 14:11 - The Three Angels and Babylon's Fall

And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

biblehub.com

 

[Free]

They may have went up into the sky in a cloud but they can not enter the kingdom of God according to Paul.
Flesh and blood csn not inherit the kingdom of God. And the two witnesses ascended up into the sky left before the last trump sounded meaning, according to Paul they they were still mortal

But that doesn't mean God didn't change them. They were raised from the dead after all. Heaven is not a separate place from the kingdom of God and the Bible says they went to heaven, so that means they went to heaven, to the kingdom of God.

and subject to the elements and a sky burning with a fervent heat.

What does this have to with the two witnesses? This is not in view in this passage.

For all you know, the voice calling them was the lamb calling them up to his presence.

Which is heaven...

Revelation 14:10 - The Three Angels and Babylon's Fall

he too will drink the wine of God's anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

biblehub.com

Again, nothing to do with the two witnesses.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

But that doesn't mean God didn't change them. They were raised from the dead after all. Heaven is not a separate place from the kingdom of God and the Bible says they went to heaven, so that means they went to heaven, to the kingdom of God.


What does this have to with the two witnesses? This is not in view in this passage.


Which is heaven...


Again, nothing to do with the two witnesses.

They ascended into heaven.
Ouranoj strongs #G3772-The sky.

They ascended into the sky in a cloud.