Ascending into heaven in a cloud

[Free]

I don't beleave these two men who spend thier lives killing and torturing men, women and children will ever do what only christ has done.

They don't "spend their lives killing and torturing men, women and children." Again, you need to pay closer attention to the context, which I and others have provided numerous times.

Rev 11:3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed.
Rev 11:6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.
Rev 11:7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them,
Rev 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,
Rev 11:10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.
Rev 11:11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
Rev 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.
Rev 11:13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. (ESV)

The two witnesses are God's prophets, who spend their days witnessing and prophesying (likely about the truths of Christ).

They ascended into heaven.
Ouranoj strongs #G3772-The sky.

They ascended into the sky in a cloud.

If you want to use something like Strong's make sure you know how to use it properly. That word is not only translated as "heaven" 218 times, it is also translated as "heavens" 24 times, "sky" 22 times, "air" 9 times, and "heavenly" once. You just can't go about using what ever definition fits, especially since you completely ignore the context of verse 13, where people "gave glory to the God of heaven." Yes, "heaven" there is the same word, ouranos. Do you believe that we should refer to God as the God of the sky or the God of heaven?

They went up to heaven, where the God of heaven is, where the voice told them to come after God raised them from the dead with a breath of life. You are reading far too much into the text that isn't there.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

They don't "spend their lives killing and torturing men, women and children." Again, you need to pay closer attention to the context, which I and others have provided numerous times.

Rev 11:3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed.
Rev 11:6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.
Rev 11:7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them,
Rev 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,
Rev 11:10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.
Rev 11:11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
Rev 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.
Rev 11:13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. (ESV)

The two witnesses are God's prophets, who spend their days witnessing and prophesying (likely about the truths of Christ).


If you want to use something like Strong's make sure you know how to use it properly. That word is not only translated as "heaven" 218 times, it is also translated as "heavens" 24 times, "sky" 22 times, "air" 9 times, and "heavenly" once. You just can't go about using what ever definition fits, especially since you completely ignore the context of verse 13, where people "gave glory to the God of heaven." Yes, "heaven" there is the same word, ouranos. Do you believe that we should refer to God as the God of the sky or the God of heaven?

They went up to heaven, where the God of heaven is, where the voice told them to come after God raised them from the dead with a breath of life. You are reading far too much into the text that isn't there.

Yes they torture men women and children.
When you cutoff people's water supply you hurt everyone. Every Christian that lives in those lands are hurt by it. Everyone is hurt by it.

 

[Free]

Yes they torture men women and children.
When you cutoff people's water supply you hurt everyone. Every Christian that lives in those lands are hurt by it. Everyone is hurt by it.

Maybe everyone is, maybe everyone isn't. That is irrelevant. What is relevant is the context you keep ignoring. Whose witnesses are these? Who gave them the power to "shut the sky" and why would they do that?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Maybe everyone is, maybe everyone isn't. That is irrelevant. What is relevant is the context you keep ignoring. Whose witnesses are these? Who gave them the power to "shut the sky" and why would they do that?

You claimed they are prophets sent by God.
Jesus said he is the last to be sent by God.

 

[Free]

You claimed they are prophets sent by God.
Jesus said he is the last to be sent by God.

You said they were sent by Christ, which is pretty much the equivalent of saying they were sent by God. You're straining out a gnat but swallowing a camel here. It is irrelevant whether we say that God sent them or Christ sent them; they are witnessing and prophesying on God's behalf, because that is what prophets do.

So, again: Whose witnesses are these? Who gave them the power to "shut the sky" and why would they do that?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Maybe everyone is, maybe everyone isn't. That is irrelevant. What is relevant is the context you keep ignoring. Whose witnesses are these? Who gave them the power to "shut the sky" and why would they do that?

With Operation Popeye, the U.S. government made weather an instrument of war

Operation Popeye was a secret Vietnam War-era effort to conduct covert cloud seeding over Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos, extend the monsoon season, and give the United States an advantage in the war.

www.popsci.com

The armed forces can make it rain. Or they can stop the rain. In the middle east it wouldny take much to stop the rain.

It's also a reason the beast attacks the armed forces in Jerusalem. According to the hadith, the jihad is to commence on the third year of the great drought.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

You said they were sent by Christ, which is pretty much the equivalent of saying they were sent by God. You're straining out a gnat but swallowing a camel here. It is irrelevant whether we say that God sent them or Christ sent them; they are witnessing and prophesying on God's behalf, because that is what prophets do.

So, again: Whose witnesses are these? Who gave them the power to "shut the sky" and why would they do that?

I've already told you.
The problem is, even though they are servants of Christ. They do not do as he commands.

I've already posted Jesus's words on his wicked servants and the things they do. Things you say are irrelevant.

 

[Free]

I've already told you.
The problem is, even though they are servants of Christ. They do not do as he commands.

I've already posted Jesus's words on his wicked servents and the things they do. Things you say are irrelevant.

I asked three questions, you answered one: they are servants of Christ. Please answer the other two.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

I asked three questions, you answered one: they are servants of Christ. Please answer the other two.

I've answrd you questions.

Shutting the sky so it doesn't rain is economic warfare. The armed forces of the north occupying Jerusalem do it.
It is meant to weaken the Muslim nations and has a great impact. The Euphrates river dries up. In the third year, the kings of the east will be prepared for armeggedon.

 

[Free]

I've answrd you questions.

No, you haven't. Who gave them the power to "shut the sky" and why would they do that?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

No, you haven't. Who gave them the power to "shut the sky" and why would they do that?

You don't listen or you just have bad comprehension skills. I'm done answering your questions. You should ask someone else to teach you from now on.

 

[Edward]

They don't "spend their lives killing and torturing men, women and children." Again, you need to pay closer attention to the context, which I and others have provided numerous times.

Rev 11:3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed.
Rev 11:6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.
Rev 11:7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them,
Rev 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,
Rev 11:10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.
Rev 11:11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
Rev 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.
Rev 11:13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. (ESV)

The two witnesses are God's prophets, who spend their days witnessing and prophesying (likely about the truths of Christ).

Yo can tell that guy the truth and he pretends to not hear you and just continues to spout nonsense.
From another thread:
Romans 11
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, [e]goodness, if you continue in His.../

Paul's talking to us Gentiles here explains us gentiles are one of the two olive trees, and we get grafted into the original tree (The Jewish people!)

It's all plainly in scripture.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Yo can tell that guy the truth and he pretends to not hear you and just continues to spout nonsense.
From another thread:
Romans 11
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, [e]goodness, if you continue in His.../

Paul's talking to us Gentiles here explains us gentiles are one of the two olive trees, and we get grafted into the original tree (The Jewish people!)

It's all plainly in scripture.

 

[Free]

You don't listen or you just have bad comprehension skills. I'm done answering your questions. You should ask someone else to teach you from now on.

Then I'll help you out. We agree that the two witnesses are from Christ, that they are God's prophets. This means, then, that God has given them the power to kill with fire from their mouths when someone tries to harm them, as judgement. It also means that he has given them the power to shut the heavens while prophesying, perhaps as a sign to verify the truths of what they prophesy or as judgement.

What we don't see is any mention of armies or economic warfare. There is absolutely no mention nor implication that "They do not do as [Christ] commands". That is reading into the text something that isn't there, especially when one considers the larger context--they finish their testimony, the beast rises from the bottomless pit and kills them because they are enemies, they are referred to as prophets again, whom God breathes life into, tells them to come up to heaven, and that is where they go.

Notice that they are never said to have done any wrong or that they don't do as Christ commands. They are never referred to as false prophets. They are Christ's witnesses and they do just that--witness about Christ. In fact, Christ (or God) clearly states that "I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy." They have been given the authority to do all that they do, which is why they do it. That God raises them from the dead and then brings them up to heaven, is just further proof (not that it is needed) that the two witnesses have done no wrong but only what they were authorized to do.

Nothing of what you have stated about the actions of these two prophesying witnesses can be substantiated from the text.

 

[jasonc]

Then I'll help you out. We agree that the two witnesses are from Christ, that they are God's prophets. This means, then, that God has given them the power to kill with fire from their mouths when someone tries to harm them, as judgement. It also means that he has given them the power to shut the heavens while prophesying, perhaps as a sign to verify the truths of what they prophesy or as judgement.

What we don't see is any mention of armies or economic warfare. There is absolutely no mention nor implication that "They do not do as [Christ] commands". That is reading into the text something that isn't there, especially when one considers the larger context--they finish their testimony, the beast rises from the bottomless pit and kills them because they are enemies, they are referred to as prophets again, whom God breathes life into, tells them to come up to heaven, and that is where they go.

Notice that they are never said to have done any wrong or that they don't do as Christ commands. They are never referred to as false prophets. They are Christ's witnesses and they do just that--witness about Christ. In fact, Christ (or God) clearly states that "I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy." They have been given the authority to do all that they do, which is why they do it. That God raises them from the dead and then brings them up to heaven, is just further proof (not that it is needed) that the two witnesses have done no wrong but only what they were authorized to do.

Nothing of what you have stated about the actions of these two prophesying witnesses can be substantiated from the text.

Stop ruining his fun with that fine piece of logic .