[_ Old Earth _] Atheist or Evolutionist?

[Gabe]

I've noticed on this science forum that many people hold to the misconception that if you believe in the theory of evolution then you must be an Atheist. I can empathise at times when some Christians (rightfully or wrongfully) go on the defensive when the ToE is mentioned as they take it as an attack on their faith but as you and I know, there are many Christians who believe the Theory of Evolution to be reality and they find it in no way to conflict with their spiritual beliefs. I for one greatly enjoy posts made by Barbarian regarding evolution, not only because he or she is a fellow Christian but also because i find them very informative and even humorous at times (have a look at the debate between Heidi and Barbarian and you'll see what I mean) I am not for one moment assuming that if you are an atheist then you must hate the notion of God or the people who believe in Him (i know this to be untrue) I just think that if we all had a clearer understanding and some knowledge of what the other believed in then it may result in a lot more productive debates and maybe help avoid the situations when debates about ToE degrade into a slanging match between Christian and atheistic beliefs when this was not the intention of the OP.

Thank you and God bless

1) what is your faith/belief?
Eg: Christian, Atheist, Hindu, Jew (Please include your denomination if you have one and anything else you think is relevant in describing your beliefs more clearly)

2) what are your beliefs regarding the origins of the natural world and of the Human race?
Eg: Created by God in a literal seven days or Created by God who in turn is responsible for evolution or The Big bang theory followed by Evolution etc

3) are you willing to switch to the opposite sides viewpoint if it could be proven or do you see no point in even considering that as it could (in your view) never be proven? (honesty needed here )

4) what are your views of the people who have opposite views to you? (extreme honesty needed here)
Eg: Christian on Atheists, Atheist on Christians, Christian Creationist on Christian Evolutionist etc

You may have noticed that this post has been edited and rewritten a few times, this is due to me accidentally pressing the edit button instead of the quote button while writing a reply to this thread (i did not notice my mistake until it was too late.

 

[BobRyan]

1. Not everyone who believes in evolutionism is an atheist. I think we all agree there.

2. Not everyone who believes in evolutionism is a Darwinists -- many prefer I.D SCIENCE to the Darwinist religion.

3. But ALL who believe in DarwinISM to the point of attacking fellow evolutionists holding to the SCIENCE in Intelligent Design have exposed the uniquely "ATHEIST" component of their argument to the public.

4. In the case of Christians that do unwittingly follow the atheist lead in condemning evolutionists in the I.D SCIENCE group - they show the extent to which their own compromised position has lead to logically self-conflicting positions.


Darwinian atheists (like Meyers and Dawkins) arguing for atheism based on Darwinism explain how Darwinism killed their Christian up-bringing.

http://www.wingclips.com/cart.php?targe ... ory_id=778


Darwin HIMSELF agrees --

Darwin

By further reflecting… that the more we know of the fixed laws of nature the more incredible do miracles become, - that the men of the time were ignorant and credulous to a degree almost incomprehensible to us,- that the Gospels cannot be proved to have been written simultaneously with the events,- that they differ in many important details///

I gradually came to disbelieve in Christianity as a divine revelation…. But I was very unwilling to give up my belief; I feel sure of this, for I can well remember often and often inventing day-dreams of old letters between distinguished Romans… which confirmed in the most striking manner all that was written in the Gospels. But I found it more and more difficult, with free scope given to my imagination, to invent evidence which would suffice to convince me. Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct.


Darwin (1887) III p. 308 [Barlow (1958)].

Bob

 

[VaultZero4Me]

1) what is your faith/belief?

Agnostic leaning towards atheism.

2) what are your beliefs regarding the origins of the natural world and of the Human race?

Very old earth. Evo.

3) are you willing to switch to the opposite sides viewpoint if it could be proven or do you see no point in even cosidering that as it could (in your view) never be proven? (honesty needed here )

Always open to change if sufficient evidence is provided.

4) what are your views of the people who have opposite views to you? (extreme honesty needed here)

I believe that everyone deals with the world around them in their own terms, and what is right for one person to believe is not necessarily right for the person beside him.

Everyone must come to terms with their existence in the way that is best for them.

The only people who I sincerely dislike are those who try to push their view or way of life on the person beside him.

 

[BobRyan]

Dawkins showing how Darwinism so obviously concludes in favor of atheism --

QUESTION: What is your response to the view that some Christians are putting forward that God is the designer of the whole evolutionary system itself?
MR. DAWKINS: In the 19th century people disagreed with the principle of evolution, because it seemed to undermine their faith in God. Now there is a new way of trying to reinstate God, which is to say, well, we can see that evolution is true. Anybody who is not ignorant or a fool can see that evolution is true. So we smuggle God back in by suggesting that he set up the conditions in which evolution might take place. I find this a rather pathetic argument. For one thing, if I were God wanting to make a human being, I would do it by a more direct way rather than by evolution. Why deliberately set it up in the one way which makes it look as though you don't exist? It seems remarkably roundabout not to say a deceptive way of doing things.
But the other point is it's a superfluous part of the explanation. The whole point -- the whole beauty of the Darwinian explanation for life is that it's self-sufficient. You start with essentially nothing -- you start with something very, very simple -- the origin of the Earth. And from that, by slow gradual degrees, as I put it "climbing mount improbable" -- by slow gradual degree you build up from simple beginnings and simple needs easy to understand, up to complicated endings like ourselves and kangaroos.
Now, the beauty of that is that it works. Every stage is explained, every stage is understood. Nothing extra, nothing extraneous needs to be smuggled in. It all works and it all -- it's a satisfying explanation. Now, smuggling in a God[/b who sets it all up in the first place, or who supervises the details, is simply to smuggle in an entity of the very kind that we are trying to explain -- namely, a complicated and beautifully designed higher intelligence. That's what we are trying to explain. We have a good explanation. Why smuggle in a superfluous adjunct which is unnecessary? It doesn't add anything to the explanation.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Patterson admits to the faith-based-core of atheist darwinism -

Evolution AS FAITH

Colin Patterson (Senior paleontologist at the British Natural History Museum and author of the Museum’s general text on evolution)

A 1981 lecture presented at New York City's American Museum of Natural History

[quote:x2hg2835]
Colin PATTERSON:

"...I'm speaking on two subjects, evolutionism and creationism, and I believe it's true to say that I know nothing whatever about either...One of the reasons I started taking this anti-evolutionary view,well, let's call it non-evolutionary , was last year I had a sudden realization.

"For over twenty years I had thought that I was working on evolution in some way. One morning I woke up, and something had happened in the night, and it struck me that I had been working on this stuff for twenty years, and there was not one thing I knew about it. "That was quite a shock that one could be misled for so long...

It does seem that the level of knowledge about evolution is remarkably shallow. We know it ought not to be taught in high school, and perhaps that's all we know about it...

about eighteen months ago...I woke up and I realized that all my life I had been duped into taking evolutionism as revealed truth in some way."

Patterson - again quoting Gillespie accusing that those "'...holding creationist ideas could plead ignorance of the means and affirm only the fact,'" Patterson countered, "That seems to summarize the feeling I get in talking to evolutionists today. They plead ignorance of the means of transformation, but affirm only the fact: 'Yes it has...we know it has taken place.'"

"...Now I think that many people in this room would acknowledge that during the last few years, if you had thought about it at all, you've experienced a shift from evolution as knowledge to evolution as faith. I know that's true of me, and I think it's true of a good many of you in here...

"...Evolution not only conveys no knowledge, but seems somehow to convey anti-knowledge [/u], apparent knowledge which is actually harmful to systematics..."

[/quote:x2hg2835]

Bob

 

[Vic C.]

Just a reminder: this isn't a topic concerning one or two particular people of the atheist belief or the field of evolutionary science. The OP asked for a poster's specific beliefs.

Also, lets refrain from multiple postings that are within a fews minutes of each other. Normally that would be taken as spamming or trolling. Got an additional thought? Edit the last post you made.

Thanks all.

 

[BobRyan]

So the board policy is one very large post instead of smaller ones? I thought there was something in the TOS about trying to get the posts down to a smaller (more likely to be read) size.

Did I get that wrong?

 

[Free]

The board policy is to answer the points being made, whether it is in one short post or one longer post.

 

[freeway]

1) what is your faith/belief?

Christian, I believe in God the Father, God the son Jesus, and God the Holy Spirit, three in one, one of three.....don't ask me to explain it, they've been trying to do that forever..

2) what are your beliefs regarding the origins of the natural world and of the Human race?

I believe that God created the heaven and everything in it in 7 days, seven 24 hr periods. well actually 6 days rested on the 7th...

3) are you willing to switch to the opposite sides viewpoint if it could be proven or do you see no point in even cosidering that as it could (in your view) never be proven? (honesty needed here )

I believe it will never be proven that of God "creation". was done in millions of years or man evolved thur countless millions of years. so the question? can I change in my mind can not be answered, kind of like asking do I think I can change into a butterfly? no.. I just don't see it happening...I believe if it could have been proven 100% unquestionable, it would have, everybody has a theory, but theories don't make it so...

4) what are your views of the people who have opposite views to you? (extreme honesty needed here)

I have friends and co worker that do not believe the same as I, even family members Family I still love and love having them around.. friends are great to be around, most co workers are a bunch of very kind people some I get along with some the best is to stay away from... just because they do not believe as I do, does not make them any less of a person than me..

one last thing I believe the bible is very true when it says someday all "everybody" will kneel before Jesus and confess He is Lord..in this life or the one to come.. that leaves no one with an excuse.. no one

Thankyou and God bless

[/quote] and God bless you also

 

[BobRyan]

I believe that God created the heaven and everything in it in 7 days, seven 24 hr periods. well actually 6 days rested on the 7th...

Then your view matches perfectly with what we see in Gen 1-2:3 and also the timline for Genesis 1 summarized here and compared to our weekly timeline.

IV –
Ex 20
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Bob

 

[Gabe]

1) what is your faith/belief?

Christian. I attend an Anglican Church but consider myself non-denomination. Since joining this forum, I've found the polite level-headed nature and impressive Scriptural knowledge of many Catholic members very pleasing and this has prompted me into investigating Catholicism further

2) what are your beliefs regarding the origins of the natural world and of the Human race?

Until recently I have never given this much thought so am not well versed on Creationism or Evolutionism and I do have problems with both views, so I guess that means I am undecided

3) are you willing to switch to the opposite sides viewpoint if it could be proven or do you see no point in even considering that as it could (in your view) never be proven? (honesty needed here )

The heart of my faith rests in our Lord Jesus Christ and his life and moral teachings as depicted in the four Gospels. If His character and actions are proven to be contrary to these then I would no longer have faith

4) what are your views of the people who have opposite views to you? (extreme honesty needed here)

I have no ill feeling nor do I feel superior to any one who's beliefs differ from mine so long as it does not condone intolerance, violence, child abuse or sexism. I think its a good thing (and a duty of sort) to preach whatever you believe no matter what that view may be (Christianity, Atheism,Hinduism etc) as long as it's not forced on an individual (and being civil always help)

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Christian. I attend an Anglican Church but consider myself non-denomination. Since joining this forum, i've found the polite level-headed nature and impressive Scriptual knoledge of many Catholic members very pleasing and this has prompted me into investigating Catholicism further

The last church I attended every so often with my girlfriends parents was Catholic and I found this to be true as well.

 

[Gabe]

^ I'm glad I am not the only one to notice this. If you look around on this forum, i think you will generally find that in debates, Catholics are more open for discussion and are less likely to resort to insults than other Christians who seem to think that insulting the Catholic Church or the Pope will somehow bolster their argument. Although this is a generalisation, I'm aware that not all non-Catholic Christians do this

 

[Rick W]

Let's let it go at that before this gets too far off topic and into an area we prefer to avoid.
:wink:

 

[Gabe]

sure, no problem

 

[Barbarian]

Speaking as a Catholic, I don't see that other denominations are any less reasonable or logical than Catholics.

1) what is your faith/belief?
Roman Catholic

2) what are your beliefs regarding the origins of the natural world and of the Human race?
The natural world, if you mean the universe, was formed by God using supernatural means beyond our ken. I believe Augustine is right in his argument that the newly-created universe had within it, seeds of all things to appear in the fullness of time, including living things. The human race appeared by evolution from other primates, but differ from all other living things because each of us has a soul given immediately by God.

"You are not a body. You are a soul. You have a body."
C. S. Lewis

3) are you willing to switch to the opposite sides viewpoint if it could be proven or do you see no point in even cosidering that as it could (in your view) never be proven? (honesty needed here )

To reject the physical universe and the evidence, all I would need would be God's say so. But that seems unlikely.

4) what are your views of the people who have opposite views to you? (extreme honesty needed here)

In general, atheists are OK. Few of them hate Christians, and those few are usually not that bright. I feel pretty much the same about creationists. Blue Lightning was one of the smartest and toughest creationists with whom I had to argue; I have the highest regard for him. (whatever happened to him?)

 

[BobRyan]

I like the "Atheist OR evolutionist" as if there are SO MANY ATHEISTS that are NOT evolutionist -- or that atheists STOP being atheist as soon as they discover evolutionism.

Bob

 

[Barbarian]

Atheists mostly become atheists after they become creationists. Creationism is a powerful atheist-maker:

But eventually, by 1994 I was through with young-earth creationISM. Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.

"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true? ,"

That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either. One man I could not reach, to ask that question, had a crisis of faith about two years after coming into the oil industry. I do not know what his spiritual state is now but he was in bad shape the last time I talked to him.

And being through with creationism, I very nearly became through with Christianity. I was on the very verge of becoming an atheist.
http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm

 

[Gabe]

I like the "Atheist OR evolutionist" as if there are SO MANY ATHEISTS that are NOT evolutionist -- or that atheists STOP being atheist as soon as they discover evolutionism.

Bob

I was not suggesting neither was i implying that the vast majority of Atheists in the world are not overwelmingly in favor of the evolution theory. One of the aims of this thread was to highlight the problems we seem to have while discussing evolution: the threads seem to end up being more about Atheist vs Christian (a point Bob, which you have been demonstrating from the very begining of this thread) i find this not very constructive when disscusing the merits and pitfalls of evolution and it is also stereotyping Christians as being entirely in favor of creationism: THIS IS NOT THE CASE AND NOR WILL IT EVER BE THE CASE!

 

[lordkalvan]

I was not suggesting neither was i implying that the vast majority of Atheists in the world are not overwelmingly in favor of the evolution theory. One of the aims of this thread was to highlight the problems we seem to have while discussing evolution: the threads seem to end up being more about Atheist vs Christian (a point Bob, which you have been demonstrating from the very begining of this thread) i find this not very constructive when disscusing the merits and pitfalls of evolution and it is also stereotyping Christians as being entirely in favor of creationism: THIS IS NOT THE CASE AND NOR WILL IT EVER BE THE CASE!

Exactly. Bob continually excludes the middle (or at least contemptuously dismisses it): Christians (and followers of other faiths) who understand and accept the demonstrable fact of evolution without abandoning their faith. I think Bob is wedded to the No True Scotsman fallacy: it is impossible both to acknowledge evolution as strongly evidenced and also be a true Christian.