Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Atonement: Potential or Actual?
- Thread starter JM
- Start date
G
Georges
Guest
Niether....God requires a contrite, broken and repentant spirit for sin atonement, as put forth in the Torah, Prophets, and writtings of the Tanach...(the Bible that Jesus used).
Contrary to popular Christian belief, nowhere did God require a human sacrifice for sin atonement.
That will upset a lot of people, but I'm pretty sure I can present a case to support that....as a matter of fact, I am currently critiquing a book (in the works) of a colleague who presents the case pretty convincingly....If any care to view the pdf on Jesus as the Atonement, pm me and I will send it to you immediately, as he will gladly take any criticism of his presentation....Prove it, or disprove it....it will open a lot of eyes....perhaps for the better...
Atonement is as simple as the first statement suggests and it can be proven as I had said....
Contrary to popular Christian belief, nowhere did God require a human sacrifice for sin atonement.
That will upset a lot of people, but I'm pretty sure I can present a case to support that....as a matter of fact, I am currently critiquing a book (in the works) of a colleague who presents the case pretty convincingly....If any care to view the pdf on Jesus as the Atonement, pm me and I will send it to you immediately, as he will gladly take any criticism of his presentation....Prove it, or disprove it....it will open a lot of eyes....perhaps for the better...
Atonement is as simple as the first statement suggests and it can be proven as I had said....
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Paul is speaking of Jesus' death on the cross, it satisfies God's justice for those who by faith receive His imputed righteousness. The Law requires every sin be punished, and still does. Jesus' death "establishes the law" in that if there were no law there would not need to be atonement.
Georges, you are misunderstanding the very heart of the Gospel message. If you want proof, start with the New Testament.
S
Solo
Guest
Actual Salvation for believers. Simple.JM said:
N
Nocturnal_Principal_X
Guest
Actual: Jesus’ death saves sinners.
As a matter of fact after doing a simple word search at BibleGateway.com using the word “sacrifice,†I found an abundant supple of scripture proving that Jesus was a sacrifice for us that believe.
Here are a few:
1 Corinthians 5:7
Ephesians 5:2
Hebrews 5:1
Hebrews 7:27
Hebrews 9:26
Hebrews 10:1
Hebrews 10:12
Philippians 4:18
So take a look, in fact read the verses that precede them to get the context.
Incorrect and unbiblical, I suggest you read the Old Testament and look at all the sacrificesâ€â€then fast forward to the New Testament and see how Christ is a sacrifice for the sins of man.Georges said:
As a matter of fact after doing a simple word search at BibleGateway.com using the word “sacrifice,†I found an abundant supple of scripture proving that Jesus was a sacrifice for us that believe.
Here are a few:
1 Corinthians 5:7
Ephesians 5:2
Hebrews 5:1
Hebrews 7:27
Hebrews 9:26
Hebrews 10:1
Hebrews 10:12
Philippians 4:18
So take a look, in fact read the verses that precede them to get the context.
G
Georges
Guest
Nocturnal_Principal_X said:
Some questions just for starters....
Was the Law fulfilled at Jesus' crucifixion? Was his crucifixion according to the Law's rules for a Passover sacrifice? Was an atonement sacrifice ever made on Passover, or was that reserved for Yom Kippur? Did God ever require human sacrifices for atonement? Where does it say that in the OT? Did God condemn human sacrifice? and....could God forgive sin without a blood sacrifice....?
and are you really telling me God doesn't require a broken, repentant, and contrite heart for atonement....? Better check your own Bible on that?
T
Theoketos
Guest
Both? :fadein:
T
Theoketos
Guest
Seriously, if something is actual it is also potential.
Example.
My truck holds 16 gallon of gas.
When it is full it is both actually full of 16 gallons and potentially full of 16 gallons.
However when it is empty is only potentially full.
Example.
My truck holds 16 gallon of gas.
When it is full it is both actually full of 16 gallons and potentially full of 16 gallons.
However when it is empty is only potentially full.
Vic C.
Member
I'm in the 'neither' camp also. What is the death without the resurrection and what is faith without repentance? Do we really come to the Lord asking to take us as we are so we may continue as we are?
Why are we told to "repent ... and believe the Gospel" ( Mark 1:15 ) or "repent... or perish" ( Luke 13:3 ) or to transform by renewing our mind ( Rom 12:2 )?
Why are we told to "repent ... and believe the Gospel" ( Mark 1:15 ) or "repent... or perish" ( Luke 13:3 ) or to transform by renewing our mind ( Rom 12:2 )?
Good thread JM - people have to get his settled - Christ's death saves sinners - not our repentance, or asking, or confessings, nor our believings :oJM said:
Salvation is in a person not a list of things we do (repentance, or asking, or confessings, nor our believings).
The issue is justification - we are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ plus nothing. :o
Self-righteous sinners continue to desire to have God give them a big pat on the back for a job well done. :roll:
God bless
S
Solo
Guest
Is your answer still neither in light of the question that is posed is to "Believers".vic said:
The atonement gives a believer the..
Potential - Jesus Christ's death makes salvation possible.
Actual - Jesus Christ's death saves sinners.
Since the question is what does the atonement give a "believer", I chose the answer, Actual salvation, not postential down the road dependent upon the believer.
Vic C.
Member
Ya know, after I posted, I reread the OP and caught that the second time. It might be best if it was reworded as such:
What do we as believers gain from His ressurection? I ask because in a different thread, I brought up the fact that Spong questions the authenticity of the Resurrection.
- The atonement gives a believer the...
Potential - Jesus Christ's death makes salvation possible for the believer.
Actual - Jesus Christ's death saves sinners who believe.
This way dummies like me would see the word believers.
What do we as believers gain from His ressurection? I ask because in a different thread, I brought up the fact that Spong questions the authenticity of the Resurrection.
J
John the Baptist
Guest
The ones of Hebrews 11:13 died 'IN' the Faith! (compare Romans 8:1)
One might ask the question what Christ meant when He forgave on the scene, sin to the lame? He said to pick up thy bed and walk, thy sins are forgiven thee! Then He asked which was easier to say, pick up your bed and walk, or to say your sins are forgiven thee? Whatever you answer, ask yourself if you to are made physically whole yet?
No, it is not over yet, and the record books are still being accurately recorded in heaven! Ecclesiastes 12:13-14. And regardless of what most believe, they are no better off than the broad way ones of Matthew 7:13-14
or the ones also seen there in Matthew 7:21-27!
---John
One might ask the question what Christ meant when He forgave on the scene, sin to the lame? He said to pick up thy bed and walk, thy sins are forgiven thee! Then He asked which was easier to say, pick up your bed and walk, or to say your sins are forgiven thee? Whatever you answer, ask yourself if you to are made physically whole yet?
No, it is not over yet, and the record books are still being accurately recorded in heaven! Ecclesiastes 12:13-14. And regardless of what most believe, they are no better off than the broad way ones of Matthew 7:13-14
or the ones also seen there in Matthew 7:21-27!---John