Attendance

[th1b.taylor]

Bill,

Your govt recognises what the church does to meet needs in the community and it has given you in the USA a wonderful tax break which I can't get. I do get a tax deduction for my sponsorship of children through Compassion Australia.

My tax deduction gives me more money to spend on sponsoring children, for which I praise the Lord.

If I followed your principles, I'd ignore that. What you do in not claiming a tax break is your business.

By the way, your quoting Matt 6:3 about not letting the left hand know what the right hand is doing is right out of context. This is what the context states:

“Be careful not to do good deeds in front of other people. Don’t do those deeds to be seen by others. If you do, your Father in heaven will not reward you.

2 “When you give to needy people, do not announce it by having trumpets blown. Do not be like those who only pretend to be holy. They announce what they do in the synagogues and on the streets. They want to be honored by other people. What I’m about to tell you is true. They have received their complete reward. 3 When you give to needy people, don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. 4 Then your giving will be done secretly. Your Father will reward you, because he sees what you do secretly (Matt 6:1-4 NIRV).​

Jesus was countering those who were flaunting their good deeds to the needy by announcing with blowing of trumpets in their pretense to be holy. They were overtly doing it in the synagogues and on the streets.

So receiving a tax deduction from the govt has zero to do with opposing overt proclamation of giving in the public arena. I don't believe your application is accurate when compared with Jesus' intent in what he stated in context.

Oz

And thank you for trying legalism on me and ignoring the first verse, completely. I did not quote the verses so as not to allow anyone to go the legalism trail and you insisted on going there. So tell me this, you insure yourself a return, here on this earth and I leave the returns up to our LORD, is either one more dependent on God, a thing God wants?

 

[OzSpen]

And thank you for trying legalism on me and ignoring the first verse, completely. I did not quote the verses so as not to allow anyone to go the legalism trail and you insisted on going there. So tell me this, you insure yourself a return, here on this earth and I leave the returns up to our LORD, is either one more dependent on God, a thing God wants?

That's a false assessment, Bill. Legalism it is not. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines legalism as, 'strict, literal, or excessive conformity to the law or to a religious or moral code the institutionalized legalism that restricts free choice' (2017. s v legalism).

Interpreting a verse in context is critical to any biblical hermeneutics.

I quoted the first verse entirely, 'Be careful not to do good deeds in front of other people. Don’t do those deeds to be seen by others. If you do, your Father in heaven will not reward you' (NIRV). The following verses tell us exactly what was being done in public. It was not legalism, but overt show and tell that Jesus said had to stop.

You said, 'So tell me this, you insure yourself a return, here on this earth'. What is that meant to state or imply.

The Bible tells us, ' So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God' (1 Cor 10:31 NIV). Therefore 'whatever you do' includes the taxes I pay and the tax breaks the govt gives me - including tax deductions. I do all of this for the glory of God.

It is not legalism. It is obedience to the Lord God.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

We have an official membership list for that, although they will also visit regular attendees who are not members, but no one writes down names of who is or isn't there on a given Sunday. Having said that, a couple of months ago my wife and I missed a couple of Sundays in a row and I received an email from an elder wondering if everything was alright. That is what elders should be doing, even regular members. It just takes awareness since we are all to look out for the needs of others.

You probably know already but in Canada we also get a tax deduction for all charitable donations, sacred or secular. And I sure use it to my advantage. Why not, right?

Free,

The church you attend is similar to the one I attend in that people who attend are noted, whether they are members or not. I'm not a member but I had a visit in hospital recently by a pastoral care person who noted I was not in the services.

Since I lived in BC for about 18 months many years ago, I knew your system with charitable donations and tax deductions is similar to what we have in Australia. I also am pleased to take advantage of the govt's generosity in this area.

I pay private medical insurance, even though we have an excellent public health system under Medicare, and today I received notification for the rebate I received in the last financial year for the premiums I paid annually.

Oz

 

[JohnDB]

The mortgage on the property requires that a count of how many people come on a regular basis. Most churches work off of a line of credit. Biggest contributions come in around Christmas but some all year long. This time of year is usually the leanest time for most churches as people go for vacations and travel.

The bank won't extend a half million dollar loan to a church of 20-40 so they can pay the pastor's salary. But a church of 4,000 it's highly likely.
Stuff happens like water heaters blowing up and hosing down the carpets. Raccoon gets in the building and makes a nest out of pew cushions. Tree falls over and knocks out a window.
So the repairs are done and services continue but money had to get borrowed to repair things and pay staff salaries, mortgage, and utilities. Then come Christmas everything breaks even and paid up.
Kinda like a credit card but different at the same time. And like people, churches aren't always really responsible with finances and want to borrow more than they should. It got so bad that years ago banks wouldn't loan any church money.
The Southern Baptist Convention started in part as a way for some by co-signing loans for churches to build a sanctuary and classrooms. Many churches wish to "overbuild" and be larger than what they need to be. Empty classrooms and pews don't help anyone. And the larger the church the more likely it is to happen. Which is why attendance is taken.

 

[Corn Pop]

Someone has to pay the bills.

 

[th1b.taylor]

That's a false assessment, Bill. Legalism it is not. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines legalism as, 'strict, literal, or excessive conformity to the law or to a religious or moral code the institutionalized legalism that restricts free choice' (2017. s v legalism).

Interpreting a verse in context is critical to any biblical hermeneutics.

I quoted the first verse entirely, 'Be careful not to do good deeds in front of other people. Don’t do those deeds to be seen by others. If you do, your Father in heaven will not reward you' (NIRV). The following verses tell us exactly what was being done in public. It was not legalism, but overt show and tell that Jesus said had to stop.

You said, 'So tell me this, you insure yourself a return, here on this earth'. What is that meant to state or imply.

The Bible tells us, ' So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God' (1 Cor 10:31 NIV). Therefore 'whatever you do' includes the taxes I pay and the tax breaks the govt gives me - including tax deductions. I do all of this for the glory of God.

It is not legalism. It is obedience to the Lord God.

Oz

We will agree to disagree, I believe.

 

[OzSpen]

We will agree to disagree, I believe.

Bill,

That doesn't tell me why what I wrote was legalism.

Neither does it engage with my defense that it was not legalism.

'Agree to disagree' here is your action of avoidance.

Oz

 

[WIP]

Can anyone explain the reason why Churches take roll? Not just in Sunday School, but also attendance during regular service, usually by the usage of the tithe envelope.

We do not take attendance in our congregation however, our church constitution does define what is required to remain an active member. Being an active member is required to cast a vote during congregational meetings and serve on the church council.

 

[flyboy2610]

Like WIP, our church does not take an attendance count. There is an official membership process that must be completed before one is officially a voting member. As far as number go in relation to financial matters, ignorance is bliss and I'm as happy as can be!