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Baptism in the Holy Spirit

[quote="Dave Slayer]Anyways, if you do not believe tongues are for today, what is the explanation for this phnenomenon? I don't believe tongues are for today either, but I don't know why people still do it. People will say "I know it's true because I have done it and it makes me feel all nice and tingly inside". I would love to hear your opinion as to why people do it.[/quote]

Some charismatic leaders fake it for power. Some charismatic lay people fake it for peer respect. I believe that many people geninuely believe that they're speaking in unknown but genuine languages, but it's a mental state that they've worked themselves into and then they just kind of let their tongue cut loose. It sounds like gibberish. It has all the value of gibberish. It is gibberish. They, themselves, don't even consider using a tape recorder to get themselves some divine stuff to study.
 
rocksolid said:
Some charismatic leaders fake it for power. Some charismatic lay people fake it for peer respect. I believe that many people geninuely believe that they're speaking in unknown but genuine languages, but it's a mental state that they've worked themselves into and then they just kind of let their tongue cut loose. It sounds like gibberish. It has all the value of gibberish. It is gibberish. They, themselves, don't even consider using a tape recorder to get themselves some divine stuff to study.

Did anyone in the Bible speak in a private heavenly prayer language? What was the Biblical purpose of tongues?
 
I feel like you interpet the scripture wrong.

One question: Do you believe in the bible and are we suppose to live by them?

Tounges "shall cease" doesn't mean it's not for today does it?
Its is prophecy. THerefore it's stating a fact and nothing more. Which tounges has ceased but doesn't mean we aren't suppose to use it.. Then how would you explain Mark 16:17 ?

And these attesting signs will accompany those who believe: in My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new languages;

This is what Jesus said! Tounges shall cease doesn't mean it will stop lol.

Tounges can't be taught or learned. Thats the cool thing about them lol :)

Can you support another scipture that supports what your saying because it isn't linking up to what the bible says?

That which is perfect is to come.. there's only one perfect! Christ! When he comes back for his 2nd coming... Tounges will be done away and so is prophesy and knowledge shall vanish away. Prophets are still used today. It's not only for events to come but to warn people. Like thats why we have so many religions because they aren't believeing what the bible says and not asking Christ for the truth instead of what they think.


People that haven't experinced it all the ones always to judge lol! (not saying you are) Just ask God and let him reveal to you rather tounges are for today or not. Pray on that.. he will answer you bro :)


Trust me its nothing that can be taught... :amen
 
kton16 said:
Tounges "shall cease" doesn't mean it's not for today does it?
Its is prophecy. THerefore it's stating a fact and nothing more. Which tounges has ceased but doesn't mean we aren't suppose to use it.. Then how would you explain Mark 16:17 ?

That which is perfect is to come.. there's only one perfect! Christ! When he comes back for his 2nd coming... Tounges will be done away and so is prophesy and knowledge shall vanish away. Prophets are still used today. It's not only for events to come but to warn people. Like thats why we have so many religions because they aren't believeing what the bible says and not asking Christ for the truth instead of what they think.

If Mark 16:17 is true, then I must not be a believer. I do not speak in tongues. I do not know for sure what the new tongues were in Mark 16;17, but I will offer my opinion. When Jesus was giving the great commission to the Apostles, he said the following:

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hand on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16:17-18

Mark 16:20 seems to indicate that signs and wonders were a thing of the past. Let's take a look.

"And they went forth and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word. with signs following."

Who went out and preached everywhere? The Apostles. The Lord was working with them and confirming the word with signs following. This is speaking in the past tense. There is a great commission given in Mathew but Jesus never said anything about tongues there.

Also, if "that which is perfect" is Jesus, why didn't Paul just say that? Jesus is not a thing or a "that". It would almost be pointless for Paul to say that tongues would stop once Jesus comes back because it's stating the obvious. It is like saying that a person's heart will keep beating until it stops. Well duh! :D

Not picking on tongue speakers, I just do not interpret the scriptures in the same was as some do.
 
kton16 said:
I feel like you interpet the scripture wrong.

One question: Do you believe in the bible and are we suppose to live by them?

Tounges "shall cease" doesn't mean it's not for today does it?
Its is prophecy. THerefore it's stating a fact and nothing more. Which tounges has ceased but doesn't mean we aren't suppose to use it.. Then how would you explain Mark 16:17 ?

mark 16:17 is true and they absolutely did this as a sign when that sign was needed.


[quote:3beg30t4]This is what Jesus said! Tounges shall cease doesn't mean it will stop lol.

So the bible is incorrect? what does cease mean to you. This word translate to mean abolished.

Tounges can't be taught or learned. Thats the cool thing about them lol :)

then why do only pentecostal/charismatics do it?

Can you support another scipture that supports what your saying because it isn't linking up to what the bible says?

But it does. I explained the reason for these gifts. I understand that people that do this will not change as ppride is a powerful thing and will blind them from what the bible says. Do you really need more than 1 scripture to believe the bible is true?


That which is perfect is to come.. there's only one perfect! Christ! When he comes back for his 2nd coming... Tounges will be done away and so is prophesy and knowledge shall vanish away. Prophets are still used today. It's not only for events to come but to warn people. Like thats why we have so many religions because they aren't believeing what the bible says and not asking Christ for the truth instead of what they think.
[/quote:3beg30t4]

By your rational Christ at this moment is not perfect. he will only be perfect when he returns. That is also not biblical.
 
Dave Slayer said:
kton16 said:
Tounges "shall cease" doesn't mean it's not for today does it?
Its is prophecy. THerefore it's stating a fact and nothing more. Which tounges has ceased but doesn't mean we aren't suppose to use it.. Then how would you explain Mark 16:17 ?

That which is perfect is to come.. there's only one perfect! Christ! When he comes back for his 2nd coming... Tounges will be done away and so is prophesy and knowledge shall vanish away. Prophets are still used today. It's not only for events to come but to warn people. Like thats why we have so many religions because they aren't believeing what the bible says and not asking Christ for the truth instead of what they think.

If Mark 16:17 is true, then I must not be a believer. I do not speak in tongues.

Also, if "that which is perfect" is Jesus, why didn't Paul just say that? Jesus is not a thing or a "that". It would almost be pointless for Paul to say that tongues would stop once Jesus comes back because it's stating the obvious. It is like saying that a person's heart will keep beating until it stops. Well duh! :D

Not picking on tongue speakers, I just do not interpret the scriptures in the same was as some do.

Believe in English terms doesn't mean the same in Greek terms. It Believe means to obey His commandments and wanting to have a relationship with him. It doesnt mean English "BELIEVE" ha. :)

Well could be a translation error but it clearly doesn't match up to the other things in the bible. As we notice with "Believe".

I feels you bro! :D Its all goodie. Also I think people knock tounge speakers because of lack of experinces "THEY" had with God.
 
Here is a good explanation of Mark 16 and tongues by Forrest L. Keener. I know it's rather long, but it''s a good read.

Source: http://cnview.com/on_line_resources/who ... _signs.htm

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hand on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16:17-18

Mark 16:17 and 18 are probably two of the most controversial verses in the entire Bible. Some use this passage as a license and even a challenge to play with snakes in "worship services." Some use it as a commission to "divine healing." "speaking in tongues," and on and on. So far I have not known of anyone trying to drink poison, but in this context of interpretation, I do not know why not, and will not be surprised if I hear of it.

There are other areas of error that I think are just as grievous. One of them is to deny the existence of this passage in the original Scriptures, and the other is to ignore the preaching and teaching of it as if it were not in the Bible. It is in the Bible, and it means something. Therefore, it is incumbent upon us to study and to learn what God's message is in this passage.

AREAS OF DIFFICULTY AND ERROR
There is a group or category of people which uses this passage to support questionable miracles. They have real problems. First, most of them choose their own miracle but do not feel obliged to do them all. Secondly, they are plagued with trial and failure, which is totally inconsistent with basic Bible pattern.

The ultra-dispensationalist who says a change is brought about in dispensation. and thus something that believers were to do in that time, the same category of believers is not to do now, also has one basic problem. His dispensational "enlightenment" is in no wise a clear revelation from Scripture, but must be established by cutting the Scripture into little slices. This always leads to error.

In my opinion the answer to the problem, as in every case, is: (a) to realize that the Bible has something to say in every passage, (b) to remember that every passage must agree with every other passage when rightly interpreted, (c) to let it say just what it says. And (d) to study it carefully enough and long enough in light of the whole Bible to know what it says.

CONTEXTUAL REVELATION
As usual our context will not leave us wondering if we stay with it. Verse 20 says, "And they went forth and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following." Verse 17 says signs shall follow. Verse 20 says signs followed. We must conclude that verse 20 is a fulfillment of verse 17.

But a question is then raised because verse 17 says, "Signs shall follow them that believe," while verse 20 refers directly to those to whom the Lord spoke in verse 19, and not all believers. Can they then be the same people as the "believers" of verse 17? I am very sure that they are the same people, exactly and exclusively! In other words, the believers of verse 17, who were to be followed by signs, were not all recipients of the Gospel, but those particular persons to whom the message of verse 15 was committed. Simply moving back to verse 14 will help to solidify this idea. We read in verse 14, "Afterward he appeared to the eleven". What was the occasion of His appearance? It was twofold.

First, He rebuked them for their unbelief concerning His resurrection. His words to Thomas on this subject were as follows: "And be not faithless, but believing" (John 20:27). It was in direct relationship to the enjoined faith of verse 14 that the commission of verse 15 was given, and that the miracles of verses 17 and 18 were promised.

EIGHTY-THREE MEN
In Matthew 10:1-8 and Luke 9:1-6 we find twelve men called and given supernatural (Apostolic) powers. Please read the Scripture and understand. In Luke 10:1-9 we find seventy others being given similar powers. We then find the Apostle Paul being designated the Apostle to the Gentiles and given these powers.

This is a total of eighty-three men. There is good Bible evidence, it you care to study through the book of Acts, that Matthias, Philip, Stephen, Barnabas and Silas were all among this seventy. You will never find a single record of any man in the New Testament performing a miracle except Jesus and men which Bible evidence would put within this eighty-three.

THE WORD 'BELIEVE' IN VERSE 17
There is another area of study that sheds much light on this subject, and corroborates the above thesis. That is the meaning of the word believe in this context. We must never build a doctrine on a single word or a word definition. On the other hand, we must not assume that we understand a Bible verse unless we know the meanings of the words in the verse, and understand those words in their contextual definitions. This word believe in Mark 16:17 is the Greek word pisteuo. The meaning of this word according to Strong's Greek dictionary is as follows: To have faith (in, upon or with respect to a person or thing) i.e. to credit; to entrust (especially one's spiritual well being to Christ): -believer, believe, commit (to trust) put in trust.

In the context of this passage the word means much more than simply to hear the Gospel and believe it. It refers to those men whose lives were committed to that Gospel. They had received it, they were committed to it, and now their very lives were invested in it, but much more particularly, it was committed to them. They were entrusted with it. In order to explain and give credibility to this interpretation, let me show you some other places where this Greek word pisteou is used and how it is translated. From each passage I will copy a clause or phrase and the word translated from pisteuo will be identified by boldface print.

(Titus 1:3) "But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me.

(Luke 16:11) "If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?"

(John 2:24) "But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,"

(Romans 3:2) "...because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."

(1 Corinthians 9:17) "...a dispensation of the gospel is committed to me."

(Galatians 2:7) "...the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me,"

(1 Thessalonians 2:4) "But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak;"

Every one of these boldface words is translated from the Greek word pisteuo, the identical word translated believe in Mark 16:17. These are just a few examples. Many more could be given. Do you not see how very definitely this points to the commission to preach and the entrusting of the Gospel to men? You can also readily see how much more this corresponds with the account in New Testament Scripture than do the snake-handling activities of today. I am not trying to put anyone down, I am simply trying to get at and to teach Bible truth. I think the evidence found here assures us that the believers of verse 17 are those spoken to in verse 14, and spoken of in verse 20, and not all believers in general as referred to in verse 16.

THE PURPOSE OF MIRACLES
According to this passage miracles were to confirm the Word. Wherever miracles were performed in the New Testament, they were after a certain fashion. They were never used to draw a crowd, promote a preacher, or for any of the basic purposes for which they are used today. You never find the Apostles announcing or advertising miracles ahead of time. You never find them referring back to a miracle that they had performed. In fact, if my memory serves me rightly, no New Testament writer records his own miracle. These miracles were worked by God, by their hands, to confirm the Word. The indication is usually that they had no previous intention of performing a miracle, but were unexpectedly led by God at that very moment.

It should also be noted that every single recorded gift of tongues followed or accompanied the preaching of the Word by one of these men, who was definitely given these Apostolic gifts. Try to find an exception to these principles in the New Testament You will not find it in a single area except those "lying wonders" performed by the anti-christ and his co-workers.
 
good post dave..some real good points.


Like I said I believe tongues was for a sign as Jesus said in Mark.That sign is not needed anymore as we have Gods complete word.


I feels you bro! Its all goodie. Also I think people knock tounge speakers because of lack of experinces "THEY" had with God

what do you know of my experience with God ? Im not knocking you Im trying to help you...God Bless
 
It wasn't that long to read lol!
I understood what he said but still like I said something is missing.
praying and gift of tongues are different as I stated.

The thing is the tongues shall cease but aren't there people that still speak it today? Lets you know some people do speak it but its not completely dead. Also speaking in tongues... On the day of Pentecost how can all of them receive the same gift? Lets you know that there are 3 ways to use tongues. (interpret tongues, gift of speaking in tongues, and communicating with God tongues) The bible never said it was a gift of tongues.

When I got filled up with the holy ghost/holy spirit. I been praying for it the longest.. but how did I know i got the holy spirit/holy ghost? Evidence of tongues. How come it happen to me and not everyone else? Just like the day of Pentecost. How can something not be taught nor teach just come to me like that? It just don't happen out of nowhere.

(From some Advice from someone ha) Acts is about being born again and being saved Corinthians (book) are for the people that had the holy spirit but didn't really know how to work their spiritual gifts. So God sent Paul to help them.

Also Acts 19 they believed in Jesus and were Baptized in John's baptism but wasn't saved yet! (Lets you know from what the bible says the just because you believe doesn't mean your saved as Acts 19) Paul laid hands on them and they spoke in other tongues. (praying in tongues)

So Corinthians is working with "GIFTS" of tongues which are interpret tongues and speaking tongues.
 
Dave Slayer said:
What was the original purpose for tongues in the Bible?

At Pentacost, the purpose of tongues was to share the Gospel with people who weren't native speakers.

Did anyone in the Bible speak in a private heavenly prayer language?

No.
 
No, Praising God isn't sharing the Gospel lol. Look at the verses. After they got done Peter Preached in "ONE" language. Lets you know right there. :shades

We do not know what they are saying but I do think some speak Heavenly language because it is a language also. There's like no way to determine that though.
 
kton16 said:
No, Praising God isn't sharing the Gospel lol. Look at the verses. After they got done Peter Preached in "ONE" language. Lets you know right there. :shades

"We hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" Just what do you think they were praising God for? It wouldn't have anything to do with that super-recent death and resurrection of the Messiah, would it?

Peter preached in Greek. Yes, it was one language because it was one man speaking. The group collectively preached in multiple languages. Do you have a point?

We do not know what they are saying but I do think some speak Heavenly language because it is a language also. There's like no way to determine that though.

It says right there what languages they were speaking, the languages of the people of Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians.
 
Praising God is between the person and GOd. Giving thanks to him! :)

GOd allowed them to hear (dialect) what they were saying in their own tongue. But it was to show those people that Jesus is alive (not physically) but spiritually. Since its a communication between God and the person they won't know what they are fully saying because its not for them to know "Fully" what they was saying. The bible doesn't state them praying in tongues and the people understanding fully what they are saying.



Yes, I know that. But Not everyone that pray in tongues have the same exact tongue. It's a different tongue. Sheesh I don't think we can know how many different types of "tongues" their are. :chin
 
kton16 said:
Praising God is between the person and GOd. Giving thanks to him! :)

God allowed them to hear (dialect) what they were saying in their own tongue.
Are you saying the gift was bestowed on the hearers and not the speakers? Given what was quoted above from Acts 2:8-11, that may be possible but difficult to prove.

But it was to show those people that Jesus is alive (not physically) but spiritually.
Jesus was not physically alive? What happened here?

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Did it say He was killed again? What about this?

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

What about the verses that say Jesus is alive and well and seated at the right hand of the Father?

Since its a communication between God and the person they won't know what they are fully saying because its not for them to know "Fully" what they was saying. The bible doesn't state them praying in tongues and the people understanding fully what they are saying.
Correct, they didn't understand all that was said. But that wasn't due to speaking in tongues. What they didn't understand was the message of the Gospel.

What does 1 Corinthians 1:18 say?
 
Vic C. said:
Are you saying the gift was bestowed on the hearers and not the speakers? Given what was quoted above from Acts 2:8-11, that may be possible but difficult to prove.

Proof or not, the mere idea that the gift was bestowed on the hearers, not the speakers, blows the whole Pentacostal "tongues is the inital evidence of Baptism in the Holy Spirit" out of the water. Not that it could float in the first place.

[quote:1sllcd5a]But it was to show those people that Jesus is alive (not physically) but spiritually.
Jesus was not physically alive? What happened here?[/quote:1sllcd5a]

That statement set off my cult-alarm. It's one thing to create strange doctrines from some biblical events, but its something else to completely contradict scripture and undermine the very foundation of Christianity. So, I assumed that she didn't mean what it looked like she meant.
 
I remember a man once asking me if we believed in the manisfestations of the Spirit. I said yes and that we encouraged these manifestations!

I went on to list these....love joy peace, patience.... ;)

He was not impressed for some reason! :shame
 
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