Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Be Perfect? How can that be?

G

Georges

Guest
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Jesus makes this statement as if perfection is something that can be attained. But that's not what others say.... :wink:

What are the qualifications for being "perfect"?

Here are a couple...

1Ki 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.




"Follow me".....I'm guessing Jesus is referring to the same thought found in 1 Ki 8:61. Follow me means imitate me.....
 
Georges
A person can get closer to perfection by not listening to you. :-D
 
oscar3 said:
Georges
A person can get closer to perfection by not listening to you. :-D

:-D Shouldn't you have said "by not reading me"....? :-D

I noticed you didn't address the question posed....you are good at the jibe, not so good at apologetics. :-? :D
 
perfection is achieved through the justification / sanctification process.
When we pass away, then we will be perfect :wink:
 
George,

I see that your understanding in such matters needs a little guidance from one that you so often choose to ignore.

There is ONLY ONE WAY that we are able to 'be perfect'. NO, not after we DIE, oscar. While we live IN THE FLESH.

That 'way' that we ARE able to 'BE' perfect I have offered on numerous occasion in different threads but let me offer it once more. For this is CRUCIAL to understanding MUCH scripture.

We CAN become PERFECT in our UNDERSTANDING. And this understanding that WE ARE capable of becoming perfect IN is LOVE. Every scripture that offers and indication or outright statement concerning the 'ability' that we have been GIVEN to 'be' perfect is pertaining to the understanding of LOVE.

I'm a bit pressed for time at present, but upon my return I will show you PLAINLY scripture that explains this 'perfection' in DETAIL that will become obvious to you too when placed in it's PROPER perspective.

MEC
 
Imagican said:
George,

I see that your understanding in such matters needs a little guidance from one that you so often choose to ignore.

There is ONLY ONE WAY that we are able to 'be perfect'. NO, not after we DIE, oscar. While we live IN THE FLESH.

That 'way' that we ARE able to 'BE' perfect I have offered on numerous occasion in different threads but let me offer it once more. For this is CRUCIAL to understanding MUCH scripture.

We CAN become PERFECT in our UNDERSTANDING. And this understanding that WE ARE capable of becoming perfect IN is LOVE. Every scripture that offers and indication or outright statement concerning the 'ability' that we have been GIVEN to 'be' perfect is pertaining to the understanding of LOVE.

I'm a bit pressed for time at present, but upon my return I will show you PLAINLY scripture that explains this 'perfection' in DETAIL that will become obvious to you too when placed in it's PROPER perspective.

MEC

i llok forward to reading what you have to say :)
 
Georges said:
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Jesus makes this statement as if perfection is something that can be attained. But that's not what others say.... :wink:

What are the qualifications for being "perfect"?

Here are a couple...

1Ki 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.




"Follow me".....I'm guessing Jesus is referring to the same thought found in 1 Ki 8:61. Follow me means imitate me.....

This use of perfect in Matthew 5:48 is not to say be flawless. Of course, we are ever to strive toward the perfect example of Jesus; but this use of perfect by Jesus (and in many other instances in the Bible such as in 1 Cor 13:10 ) the word perfect means completeness. This is how it is broken down from the original language:

NT:5046

teleios (tel'-i-os); from NT:5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with NT:3588) completeness:


KJV - of full age, man, perfect.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

In other words, continue to grow and become complete (in your love of God, in Christian love, in the knowledge of Christ, in knowing all that God wants you to know and strive to live according to it). These things we can do.
 
Firstly Oscar, one MUST accept what has been offered. If one insists that 'their way' is the 'truth' then THE TRUTH is NOT very convincing and utterly unobtainable. BUT, if one IS able to 'put aside' SELF for the SAKE of truth, IT IS OBTAINABLE. With this in mind, let us continue.

If one HAS read the Bible, there are certain characteristics that manifest themselves in UNDERSTANDING. One of these things IS that we CANNOT simply 'pick and choose' individual LINES of scripture and have them offer MUJCH OF ANYTHING other than words that are possible to manipulate to one's own desires. But, if we have read we have noted that there ARE chapters for a REASON. Each chapter has a resounding THEME and without an understanding of this THEME, the words themselves mean little. NOW, let's see what truth we are able to discern concerning this PERFECTION OF MAN.

1 Corinthians 13:

1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Let's start by determining EXACTLY WHAT charity IS. To sum it up; Charity IS LOVE. Nothing other than TRUE LOVE. Not just giving of the 'material', but the offering of self for something OTHER THAN SELF. This IS Charity.

Now let's focus.

9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Many have mistakenly accepted these words to indicate that upon the RETURN Of Christ....................WRONG. It has NOTHING to do with 'a return of ANYTHING'. What this entire chapter speaks of IS CHARITY. So what is offered here is that once one comes to the UNDERSTANDING OF CHARITY, at this point they begin to GROW. As their understanding of LOVE continues to grow, so TOO does the individual IN CHRIST.

So what we have here is that upon the initial introduction to Christ through The Spirit we get our FIRST taste of 'true love'. Our job THEN is to allow The Spriit within us to grow and therefore allowing ourselves to GROW in love. Hence, 'when I was a child............

A step forward; As we grow in our understanding of love, (Through The Spirit), we grow CLOSER to Christ. We allow HIM into our hearts MORE AND MORE. Therefore:

12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Upon our acceptance of Christ into our hearts we are but BABES in understanding. But the MORE we follow The Spirit TO CHRIST, the MORE we begin to understand THE LOVE OF CHRIST, (which IS THE SAME LOVE OF GOD).

So, what Paul is offering here is to those that are yet babes in Christ. He is explaining that to GROW in Christ is to GROW in their understanding of love. For they were seeing through a glass, barely. But, there would come a time that they would see through the glass more clearly. IF they would allow their understanding of LOVE to flourish. Eventually the glass would be able to be SO CLEAR that these would actually be able to come FACE to FACE with He who lives within them. And upon this event be able to actually KNOW Christ as He has KNOWN them since being accepted into their hearts.

Now, ignore ME and simply take into consideration the words that have been offered here. Read the chapter offered a few times with the understanding that Paul is encouraging these people to GROW UP. They have stagnated and have been concentrating on that which they FIRST KNEW and refusing to continue their walk. Paul is pointing out that what they are concentrating on is CHILDISHNESS. That it's time to let go of their seeking that 'first feeling' that they experienced upon the introduction of The Spirit and NOW IT"S TIME TO GROW UP. And he is explaining EXACTLY HOW THEY MUST DO THIS. Through the undertanding and OFFERING of their love to OTHERS. That was the PURPOSE of The Spirit to START with. To bring into understanding of WHAT CHRIST IS. And, when this understanding is acheieved, ONLY THEN can we even BEGIN to understand HIS FATHER, our God.

I'm not through yet, my friends. I have MUCH MORE TO offer concerning this very matter and the PROOF of it. Digest this and come to the understanding of WHAT it actually offers and I will be back in a flash to 'move on' in a BETTER UNDERSTANDING.

MEC
 
Georges said:
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Jesus makes this statement as if perfection is something that can be attained. But that's not what others say.... :wink:

What are the qualifications for being "perfect"?

Here are a couple...

1Ki 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.




"Follow me".....I'm guessing Jesus is referring to the same thought found in 1 Ki 8:61. Follow me means imitate me.....

George,

WHAT must one REALLY DO in order to accept and follow EITHER of these two 'sayings'? At the time of Christ, the Jews had UTTERLY turned their backs on God and had simply been following 'themselves'. What understanding God had intended in the offering of 'law' had been 'missed' by, not only the PEOPLE, but even the RELIGIOUS ORDER THEMSELVES. The Levites had even strayed from this understanding and were UNABLE to lead the people to IT. That is EXACTLY WHY Christ was NEEDED to be upon this planet at THAT EXACT TIME to begin with. The Jews were LOST as a whole and there was need to reign them in ONCE AGAIN.

Now, to the answer; What they lacked was a COMPLETE understanding of LOVE. God has had ONE relationship in mind since the creation of man. That is one of LOVE. His Love to usward and the HOPE that we would be able to return this love to Him and each other. THAT, my friend is what it's ALL ABOUT.

So, while we will NEVER be PERFECT in the flesh, we ARE able to obtain a PERFECT UNDERSTANDING of what I have offered RIGHT HERE. THAT is what it's ALL ABOUT. EVERYTHING ELSE IS ACHEDEMIC.

MEC
 
Imagican said:
George,

WHAT must one REALLY DO in order to accept and follow EITHER of these two 'sayings'?

At the time of Christ, the Jews had UTTERLY turned their backs on God and had simply been following 'themselves'.

That is not true....The Jews (the common man) have always beem zealous to some extent for God...to this day they are. If they weren't, they would have dribbled out to non exsistence 3000 years ago....The Jews have a hope that "they" being led by the Messiah will lead the Messianic Kingdom nations. They expect it to happen at the end of 6000 years from Adam....to say that they turned their backs on God, is not a responsible statement.

What understanding God had intended in the offering of 'law' had been 'missed' by, not only the PEOPLE, but even the RELIGIOUS ORDER THEMSELVES.

Not so....yes, they did get bogged down by man made rabbinic law...but they understood very well what Torah meant and they gloried in it. The righteous Nazarene Jews at Qumron understood the true Torah...as taught by Jesus and expounded on by James.

The Levites had even strayed from this understanding and were UNABLE to lead the people to IT. That is EXACTLY WHY Christ was NEEDED to be upon this planet at THAT EXACT TIME to begin with.

Not all of the people were lost...many thousands of pharisee Jews came to become the first believers. Many of the religious leaders believed in Jesus...among them Nicodemus and even traditionally, Gamaliel.

The Jews were LOST as a whole and there was need to reign them in ONCE AGAIN.

It is true that Israel in it's past have fallen off the wagon....God has always bought them back in....Read the Damascus Document from the Dead Sea Scrolls....it gives a very interesting history of the remnant that God always saves during thier times of idolatry....it is very interesting....the Christians (Nazarene Jews) at Qumron thought that they were the remant at that time.

Now, to the answer; What they lacked was a COMPLETE understanding of LOVE.

Yet the concept of "Love" was taught in obeying Torah...


God has had ONE relationship in mind since the creation of man. That is one of LOVE. His Love to usward and the HOPE that we would be able to return this love to Him and each other. THAT, my friend is what it's ALL ABOUT.

That may be what it is all about, but not what the OP was intended to present...

So, while we will NEVER be PERFECT in the flesh, we ARE able to obtain a PERFECT UNDERSTANDING of what I have offered RIGHT HERE. THAT is what it's ALL ABOUT. EVERYTHING ELSE IS ACHEDEMIC.

MEC


Not completely so MEC.....If perfection isn't to be persued, Christ wouldn't have mentioned it....He would have said "Don't worry about it...I got ya covered".......or something like that...
 
Jesus is coming back for a spotless bride - a perfect church. How is she made perfect? By walking in the righteousness of Christ, which is credited to those who remain in faith.
 
The Bride of Christ is only spotless because of the righteousness of Jesus Christ being imputed to her. Those that are believers are changed into incorruption and immortal upon the return of Jesus Christ.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, F60 where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:47-57

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
 
It's important to note the Greek word used in scripture in this instance. It is "telios", which in Greek is more akin to "wholeness" or "completion".

Jesus is not saying be free from error, and is not really setting up the expecatation of living a sinless life...rather, he is telling us to be whole, to be complete.

Naturally, this very much involves a deep descent within oneself to gather up the broken pieces and patch them together. We must confront the dark and neglected corners of our soul and shed light upon them. We must fully integrate our being with itself.

Telios means the full use of one's abilities, literally, bringing forth the fullness of our potential and putting it into action. In this sense, it becomes a model of what some eastern religions might call "enlightenment", the utilizing of our full capacity as human beings.
 
Jesus makes this statement as if perfection is something that can be attained. But that's not what others say....

As I understand it we will be accredited and imputed perfection by Christ after we die, after the completion of our salvation which Christ accomplished in us on earth. And even now because of justification Jesus not accredit our sins to us.
 
Ok, like I said upon the opening of my post, there WILL be those that are 'unable' to come to the truth for the sake of 'their OWN' understanding.

Let's try a 'little MORE' truth:

Ephesians 4:1

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20But ye have not so learned Christ;

21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27Neither give place to the devil.

28Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Now, read this folks and see if you are able to grasp NOT EVERY WORD, but WHAT the words MEAN.

Firstly, HOW is edification brought into being in ANY sense? Understanding THIS is CRUCIAL in being able to understand WHAT is being said above. Once one comes to the understanding of THIS, ONLY THEN is it EVEN POSSIBLE to 'begin' to understand what has been offered.

Edification is 'the BUILDING UP'. Agreed? Building up of 'what'? Here we are dealing with the BODY with Christ AS The HEAD. Folks, there is ONLY ONE WAY to build up the Body of Christ. This can ONLY be done through LOVE. You cannot build up the Body through OUR ABILITY. This can ONLY be done through The Spirit. And HOW can this be done? ONLY through the LOVE OF GOD and the LOVE OF EACH OTHER.

EVERYTHING God has done since He created the FIRST MAN has been done through LOVE. God IS love. THAT is what He has 'tried' to TEACH us since our beginning.

When we truly begin to understand this, it is at THIS POINT ONLY that we are able to understand what it 'means' to be PERFECT IN CHRIST. We are UNABLE to be 'without sin' in our lives. We are UNABLE to do EVERYTHING right. We are UNABLE to be AS CHRIST. BUT, we ARE able to come to a 'perfect understanding' of WHAT God IS. And, we ARE able to offer this to God and each other in The Body.

When we are given the understanding that 'God's Laws will be 'written in their hearts', WHAT do you think THIS means? It means that for those that LOVE God, He will offer us the ability to follow IN LOVE. That our hearts will be 'changed', allowing us to experience the LOVE of God and THEN be able to offer THIS SAME LOVE TO Him and EACH OTHER.

George, you state that what I offer is UNTRUE. I contend that you simply don't want to 'see' the truth. Yes, there has and always WILL BE a remnant. But the Jews as a WHOLE have turned their collective backs on God OVER AND OVER again. They had done so, ONCE AGAIN, at the time of Chirst. WHY do you 'think' that God had allowdd HIS PEOPLE to, ONCE AGAIN, be enslaved by 'another people'? For at the time of Christ we find the Jews, ONCE AGAIN, dominated by 'another people' named ROMANS. Why do you suppose that God had allowed this?

The ONLY reason that Chirst came WHEN He did was that IT WAS TIME. What do you 'think' was the determining factor that was used by God to DECIDE 'THE TIME' of the coming of Christ? That His people were at the brink of being TOTALLY LOST. Therefore Christ was sent to 'save them'.

Most of the Jewish people NEVER had ANY love for God. They did what the HAD to do according to the law and love played little of NO part in it. For you to deny this is to deny history as offered through The Word. For IF they had possessed LOVE, there would have been NO veering away from God EVER.

Christ PLAINLY states that ALL the law and ALL the prophets hand on 'these TWO'. These two WHAT and WHAT do they mean? When Christ states that those that love HIM will follow HIS Commandments, WHAT commandments is He refering to? Jewish LAW? Hardly, my friend. I know that YOU would like to 'see' it this way, but this is NOT what has been offered. Christ FULFILLED The Jewish law and then offer HIS COMMANDMENTS, given to him 'anew' from God, The Father.

George, it's NOT about YOU, or ME, or EVEN THE BODY. It's about WHAT MAKES THE BODY. And WHAT is it that 'makes' the Body? What IS the cornerstone of The Body? CHRIST. And WHAT is the ONE thing that Christ came and offered? LOVE. If this IS the truth then the The Body cannot exist without it's cornerstone. And IF what Christ came to offer was knowledge of LOVE, then the Body CANNOT exist without an intimate knowledge and understanding OF THIS LOVE. Read the PREVIOUS chapter.

So, you asked a question and the answer has been given clearly. Either you are willing to accept the 'truth' or you are not. That is a matter of whether one chooses to accept what is offered or whether they MUST have it 'thier way'. Nothing new under the sun.

The answer is this. REGARDLESS of how hard one 'tries' to BE what they "THINK" they are 'supposed' to be, the truth is that what EVERY WORD OF THE BIBLE was given us FOR was the desire of God to teach us ONE THING; LOVE. For EVERY law EVER GIVEN was NOT given to BIND US, but to TEACH US, ONE THING; LOVE. EVERY PROPHET that EVER came and told us of God's Word was sent to teach us ONE THING: LOVE. And that there are STILL those that are able to deny these words only goes to PROVE how difficult a task God has undergone to teach us from the beginning.

To 'build up' the body can ONLY be done through the love offered to EACH of it's member BY each of it's members. Without this LOVE, there IS NO BODY. In order for us to become PERFECT in The Body, there is NOTHING that we are able to offer EXCEPT LOVE. And ONCE we begin to allow The Spirit to 'teach us' this love, ONLY THEN are we able to grow into a PERFECT UNDERSTANDING.

Now, read these words and join them with what I offered in the FIRST post and 'see' if you are 'still unable' to understand the words offered by Christ and His apostles concerning that which matters MOST.

MEC
 
Back
Top