Before Jerusalem Fell.

[Scotth1960]

Dear friends, Has any one among you read Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr.'s book "Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation" ? Have you also ever read David Chilton's book "The Great Tribulation" and his book "The Days of Vengeance", a commentary on the book of Revelation. What is your opinion, from the Bible (especially the NT) on these books? If you read these books later, why not comment on them here, later, in CF?
Gentry's book deals with his these that Revelation and the entire NT canon was completed and finished sometime before 70 AD. Before the Jewish temple of Herod was destroyed. I tend to agree with Gentry's thesis. I just feel Ed Stevens of Bradford, PA, that the parousia (second coming) of Christ occurred in 70 AD, and that therefore the old heresy of "the resurrection is past" (referred to in the NT actually) is being believed in some versions of Reformed Evangelical preterism. Dispensationalism may be mistaken about many things, but it gets one thing right in its basic futurism: the second coming of Jesus Christ has not happened yet.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Elijah674]

It would be nice if one would just DUMP the Jer. 17:5 ones & do what is REQUIRED in 2 Tim. 3:16 + Matt. 4:4! Christ comes in bodily Form TWICE! O.T. New Test.

AND?? Again... twice at least, we see the Holy Spirit SEARCHING with Zeph. 1:12 'CANDLES' for the 'few' of Rev. 18:4.

Do you believe Him?? Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15

--Elijah

 

[Hitch]

Dear friends, Has any one among you read Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr.'s book "Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation" ? Have you also ever read David Chilton's book "The Great Tribulation" and his book "The Days of Vengeance", a commentary on the book of Revelation.

Excellent titles, these are musts for anyone seriously interested in eschatology, whether you agree with the conclusions or no,both are orthodox preterist that is to say Post Millennial, and dedicated Calvinist.

 

[Scotth1960]

Dear friends, Has any one among you read Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr.'s book "Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation" ? Have you also ever read David Chilton's book "The Great Tribulation" and his book "The Days of Vengeance", a commentary on the book of Revelation.

Excellent titles, these are musts for anyone seriously interested in eschatology, whether you agree with the conclusions or no,both are orthodox preterist that is to say Post Millennial, and dedicated Calvinist.

Dear Hitch, Have you read William E. Cox's and Kim Riddlebarger's books on amillennialism. Have you studied what are the major differences between amillenialism and postmillennialism? Have you studied eschatology just a little, a medium amount, or a lot. I have not studied eschatology of any tradition much.
Much of what some of these people says seems to me to be good. It is in common with historic Christianity, which comes from other sources not just Reformed and Calvinist sources. Luther, Calvin, the Roman Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox, seem to share the same amillennial tradition. Postmillennialism is just a 18th century modification of amillennialism, ISTM. Where Christians differ the most is on Protestant view of sola scriptura and Roman view of the papacy.
Eastern Orthodox Christians reject both.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

It would be nice if one would just DUMP the Jer. 17:5 ones & do what is REQUIRED in 2 Tim. 3:16 + Matt. 4:4! Christ comes in bodily Form TWICE! O.T. New Test.

AND?? Again... twice at least, we see the Holy Spirit SEARCHING with Zeph. 1:12 'CANDLES' for the 'few' of Rev. 18:4.

Do you believe Him?? Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15

--Elijah

Dear Elijah, That is true, Ecclesiastes is correct, there is nothing new under the sun, in a sense. But in the NT, it also says, "Behold, I make all things new". So there are also some new things under the sun. The second coming of Jesus Christ will be new, and the comings and return of Enoch and Elijah from heaven will be new, for Israel will hear the message of the Church from two Jews who have been in heaven with Jesus Christ, the Jewish Messiah. In Erie Scott Harrington

 

[Cyberseeker]

Kim Riddlebarger is very good. He is amill but not preterist. In his latest book, 'The Man of Sin,' Riddlebarger examines Gentrys arguments carefully but does not agree with them.

George Ladd is another top notch scholar but, in his case, historic premil. My view is closer to these two. :yes

 

[Elijah674]

[Part one of Two:]

Post No. 5:
Hi again, nothing personal. This is how 'i' see it for Jerusalem as Isa. 5's Ex/Virgin Vinyard, when Christ came the first time & of the Rev. 7 Virgin ones with Laodicea once again falling the Second time Christ comes! Twice, OT & NT. And extended with her Remnant Phil. who were on the scene & kept. Rev. 3:10 + Rev. 12:17 And old Israel??? We see who the start of the Acts Church were, in Matt. 10:5-6 & verse 15! Just a Remnant followed Christ [OUT!] And the below will explain how that I see the Eccl. verses.;)

What does the Godhead 'DOCUMENT'?? What do They SAY WITH THEIR Eternal WORD?? (Matt. 4:4, 2 Tim. 3:17, Isa. 28:10) The below verses could straighten out much of satans false doctrines of the Rev. 17:5 Abomination of the Earth ones, [IF GOD WAS REALLY BELIEVED BY THEM!] But that would mean that most would be required to [TOSS OUT] much of their life's work & start [all over again!] Like Saul did to become the Paul of the New Testament in Acts 9:4-6 did, where Christ told him what [HE MUST DO!]

Here in Jer 4 is an EXACT repeat of Earth from its created birth to its recreated birth! We think of Christ's [DOCUMENTED WORDS] in John 3:3 that 'WE MUST BE BORN AGAIN?? But here and elsewhere, we see that it is not just mankind, but EARTH AS WELL! Where ever sin has 'touched' will require the Godhead's Recreated, and a type of Born Again's recreation! Even the lower heavens where man has been trying to get into outer space! The below verses are so plain & simple that even the Heb. 5 'milk/fed ones could be straightened out if they would just BELIEVE ALL OF GOD'S Truth.

Jeremiah 4

[21] How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?
(compare this with 1 Thess. 4:15-16)

[22] For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding:they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
(compare with Hosea 4:6!)

[23] I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
(compare with 2 Peter 3:9-12 & *2 Peter 2:4!)

[24] I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

[25] I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
(The Word of God does not play games or lie! This verse is as clear as it can be [documented by the Godhead!!] )

[26] I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
(Again, seen right back to the time before creation, A WILDERNESS! And this time period of when this takes place is again clearly told, [AT THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD,] His Second Coming!)

[27] For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
(An DESOLATE VOID HEAVEN AND EARTH is the Godheads 'Documentation!' With nothing here but satan & his evil angels.. as before They CREATED IT!! And then we see the vers saying 'Yet I will not make a full End'. All are DEAD of sinful mankind when Christ return's the Second time, and the Saints are resurrected to leave with Christ & the living Saints together into heaven until the 1000 years are over. And the only ones that could live on earth are the same ones who 'kicked out of heaven' & were sent here before its creation)

Just another Eternal 'Documention' of the Godhead thought!
If one cannot follow God's quoted Truth of Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 as the Word of God, stated CLEARLY, and in a way that even most of Heb. 5's 'milkfed' ones can even get something from. I suggest that you shy away from Ph.D'ism, the arm of flesh & the Greek, Latin, & Heb., & stick with just one King James translation itself. The BOTTOM line is, is that ALL of these others ways of finding 'some' truth, are the real reasons that have caused the BIGGEST MESS OF DIS/UNITY that the GOSPEL ALONE prophesied of! See Rev. 17:5

And I realize that there are & were some who could not understand Paul's wording of inspiration & that it is scripture that also says that.... 'which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction'. 2 Peter 3:14-17 in part.

[Part Two will follow:]

 

[Elijah674]

[Part Two:]

Lets start with Eccl. 3:14.
"I know that, WHATSOEVER GOD DOETH, (or sayeth, as in Eternal Gpspel! Rev. 14:6) IT SHALL BE FOREVER: NOTHING CAN BE PUT TO IT, NOR ANY THING TAKEN FROM IT: ..." (in part)
Actually that is just about a repeat even in Wording, as seen in Rev.'s closing verses of Warning!
The verses are a WARNING about adding to or removing from any of the Word of God! And the Book Of Life is the 'mentioned' Fate of such a person or person's doing so. And the BOTTOM line is that ones name would be removed from the Book of Life. Now for the rest of the 14th verse. "... THAT MEN SHOULD FEAR BEFORE HIM."

For one to say that the Eccl. verses do not mean what they say? that one is doing just that!

Now look at the verse following verse 14. Verse 15 says.. "THAT WHICH HAS BEEN IS NOW; AND THAT WHICH IS TO BE [HAS ALREADY BEEN;] AND GOD REQUIRETH THAT WHICH IS PAST." GOD'S WORD says that it is so!

Post number 5, Take note:
If it is not to be, God say's that it will not be! Example: 'Sin will not arise a second time' Nah. 1:9. And we all know about the world flood not happening a second time?
So, there are so very few times that history does not repeat, and [that God does the easy thing for [us] by pointing out the lesser number.] (by the way, Rev. is full of O.T. Sanctuary! see Ps. 77:13)

If anyone would BELIEVE THE *GODHEAD'S INSPIRED WORD (ALL OF IT! See 2 Tim. 3:16 & Matt. 4:4) they would find Few reasons for mixed up doctrinal folds.
But the bottom line is that even the Virgin Fold of Rev. 3:16 is going after the fate of Virgin Israel of old!! (same history) They are once again Christ/less. See Rev. 3:9 or Rev. 17:5! And the nasty repeat for them is VERIFIED in Eze. 9.
Try reading Rev. 12:17 S-L-O-W-L-E-Y! And in Christ's day, who do you think took over the 'DESOLATE' fold that Christ was put out of? It was Christ that stated that 'Your house (fold) is left unto you DESOLATE'. Matt. 23:38.
So we see 'Before Jerusalem fell' & even to where the Last Virgin Fold Laodicea (Rev. 3:16) was also to be SPEWED OUT AS SICKENING, and also fell! (ibid. 9)

So, this is what will be the final fate of Spiritual Virgin Israel! (the 666 thing'y is for the world's testing) See 1 Peter 4:17 FOR WHO IS JUDGED FIRST.

Back to Chapter 1:9-10 of Eccl. Lets check to 'see' (if we can) if God made a mistake, and if He will even repeat His Truth again???;)

We do remember that we were told that 'IT SHALL BE FOR EVER and that NOTHING CAN BE PUT TO IT NOR ANYTHING TAKEN FROM IT.' (chapter 3:14-15)

"THE THING THAT HATH BEEN IS THAT WHICH SHALL BE; AND THAT WHICH IS DONE IS THAT WHICH SHALL BE DONE: AND THERE IS (NOTHING) *NO NEW THING UNDER THE SUN. v.9
IS THERE [*ANY THING] WHERE OF IT MAY BE SAID, SEE, THIS IS NEW? [IT HATH BEEN ALREADY OF OLD TIME, WHICH WAS BEFORE US.]" v.10

Notice that after the GodHead's question, that Their Inspiration came quickly before 'ignorant' man could botch up the question!! (you guy's with the Jer. 17:5 stuff! ) So ... what does one hear today?? Should we do the 'foolish' (Matt. 25) thing and read & study the 'earthly' educated ones reams & reams of commentaries, with hardly any two alike??

Lets just add another 'documented' fact here with these two verses.
In Gen. 41:32 the Lord gave Pharaoh a vision 'TWICE'. (remember now, that we see TWICE at least in the Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 that history is to be repeated) Also note that God has 'inspired' this thought ... "And for that the dream was [doubled] unto Pharaoh [twice]; it is [because the thing is established by God], and God will shortly bring it to pass.


So bottom line: If you want to know Truth, find it in the past history for the furture history to be! All the way from the 666 test to where God 'tested' His own in the past before they were to enter their land of their Canaan.
And the re/crucifixion of Christ a second time? See Heb. 6:6!


--Elijah

 

[Scotth1960]

Dear Elijah, I must admit, I do not really understand what you are saying, or trying to say, to all of us here at CF. God bless you. In Erie PA Scott Harrington
Why do you jump around so much between different Scripture throughout the whole Bible, which may be saying different things in different contexts? Of course, all the Scriptures agree with the Scriptures, as God cannot contradict Himself in them, or anywise contradict Himself at all, within, or beyond the Scriptures. But why not avoid quoting Revelation very much. It is a danger to even read this last book, as it is sealed for the end time, and it is not apparent to all Christians that this is the end time in which we live. The 2 witnesses, Enoch and Elijah, have not been in the news on television. God bless us all to refrain from reading Revelation; there is a warning against misunderstanding this book. I must confess, with many Christians, there is a reason the historic Church does not refer to Revelation in her Divine Liturgy of our father among the Saints John Chrysostom.
God bless you in your search through the Scriptures anyway.
God does speak in all of the Bible, but we must be careful not to let the evil one direct our reading, or we will misread the Scriptures.

How about this for starters from the Bible. This should be a prayer we often pray by heart:
Our Father Who art in heaven; hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from the evil one. For Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever; AMEN.
In Erie PA Scott Harrington

[/QUOTE]

 

[Elijah674]

Dear Elijah, I must admit, I do not really understand what you are saying, or trying to say, to all of us here at CF. God bless you. In Erie PA Scott Harrington
Why do you jump around so much between different Scripture throughout the whole Bible, which may be saying different things in different contexts? Of course, all the Scriptures agree with the Scriptures, as God cannot contradict Himself in them, or anywise contradict Himself at all, within, or beyond the Scriptures. But why not avoid quoting Revelation very much. It is a danger to even read this last book, as it is sealed for the end time, and it is not apparent to all Christians that this is the end time in which we live. The 2 witnesses, Enoch and Elijah, have not been in the news on television. God bless us all to refrain from reading Revelation; there is a warning against misunderstanding this book. I must confess, with many Christians, there is a reason the historic Church does not refer to Revelation in her Divine Liturgy of our father among the Saints John Chrysostom.
God bless you in your search through the Scriptures anyway.
God does speak in all of the Bible, but we must be careful not to let the evil one direct our reading, or we will misread the Scriptures.

How about this for starters from the Bible. This should be a prayer we often pray by heart:
Our Father Who art in heaven; hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from the evil one. For Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever; AMEN.
In Erie PA Scott Harrington

--Elijah here:
Let me see if this old post answers your questions as how 'i' believe Bible study is required?
________

We seem to always get personal with the person, and the Bibles 'Inspired' person?? Do we not think that ALL SCRIPTURE IS THE WORD OF GOD?? John 1:1.

How can we read Isaiah 28:7-10 along with a couple more verses in the WORD and think that it is for just one time/frame, or person or persons?? Or the Old Covenant & not THE New Covenant?? Notice! Isa. 28

[7] But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
(surely that has more meaning than meets the eye at first glance.)

[8] For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

(Matt. 4:4 will be quoted later on, but the TABLES are where we are to EAT GOD'S WORD! Get 'fed' in the Church. Compare Psalm 69:20-28 ) Now, how would I know that if I did not do as Inspiration requires in Matt. 4:4 & even 2 Tim. 3:16? And these Isa. verses??And vomit + filthiness? Surely the FALSE DOCTRINE must be considered? Unless you think that these ones actually throwup on the tables??)

[9] Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

(surely one can see that this is also Inspired in Heb. 5?? And KNOWLEDGE + *DOCTRINE??? We have heard of the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST that John was Inspired to [PEN]? How can one limit the Doctrine of Christ to ANYTHING LESS THAN THE ETERNAL WORD OF GOD/CHRIST of Rev. 14:6?? Compare 2 Tim. 3:16-17 which I will also post below further down)

[10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

(That IS STATING a FACT. Some say do not run around the Word of God. These ones do so falsley & in Ignorance. For that is exactly how INSPIRATION has told us to get OFF OF THE MILK! But Let's post up 2 Tim. 3:16-17 & the Words OF CHRIST IN MATT. 4:4.

2 Tim. 3:
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

(OK: We are TOLD that we need ALL SCRIPTURE to [HAVE PROFITABLE DOCTRINE]. And that it IS THIS SCRIPTURE that will REPROVE & *CORRECT US!
Again, is that just for where it is found & to the person or persons that are mentioned? HARDLY!

[17] That theman of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

OK: Now for The WORD OF GOD, CHRIST HIMSELF, in Matt. 4:

[3] And when the tempter (devil) came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
(Christ was very hungry, he had just fasted 40 days and nights)

[4] But he (Christ) answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, [but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.]

(Did you get that?? And where was it written? And some think that this was just for satan, or the ones in Deut. 8:3??? One BEST REALIZE that the Word of God IS IMMORTAL, and extends into the created UNIVERSE!

And Deut. 8:3 needs a Christians REQUIRED ATTENTION if they are to be Faithful until the END! This is where Christ quoted His Eternal Words from: (He went 'running' around to the O.T. huh? as His Word in Tim. & Matt. 4:4 here DOCUMENTED that we haft to do!)

[3] And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might [make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live].

--Elijah

 

[Cyberseeker]

Yo Elijah, :waving

(Hints for you)

1. Cut your posts to half size
2. Stay on topic
3. Use bold sparingly
4. Use underline more sparingly
5. Use color more sparingly still
6. Use full caps most sparingly of all

Thanks bro. Now we can read without going cross-eyed. :eeeekkk

 

[Scotth1960]

Yo Elijah, :waving

(Hints for you)

1. Cut your posts to half size
2. Stay on topic
3. Use bold sparingly
4. Use underline more sparingly
5. Use color more sparingly still
6. Use full caps most sparingly of all

Thanks bro. Now we can read without going cross-eyed. :eeeekkk

AMEN. I understand about 1 percent of what Elijah says. In Erie Scott

 

[Elijah674]

--Elijah here:
Let me see if this old post answers your questions as how 'i' believe Bible study is required?
________

We seem to always get personal with the person, and the Bibles 'Inspired' person?? Do we not think that ALL SCRIPTURE IS THE WORD OF GOD?? John 1:1.

How can we read Isaiah 28:7-10 along with a couple more verses in the WORD and think that it is for just one time/frame, or person or persons?? Or the Old Covenant & not THE New Covenant?? Notice! Isa. 28

[7] But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
(surely that has more meaning than meets the eye at first glance.)

[8] For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

(Matt. 4:4 will be quoted later on, but the TABLES are where we are to EAT GOD'S WORD! Get 'fed' in the Church. Compare Psalm 69:20-28 ) Now, how would I know that if I did not do as Inspiration requires in Matt. 4:4 & even 2 Tim. 3:16? And these Isa. verses??And vomit + filthiness? Surely the FALSE DOCTRINE must be considered? Unless you think that these ones actually throwup on the tables??)

[9] Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

(surely one can see that this is also Inspired in Heb. 5?? And KNOWLEDGE + *DOCTRINE??? We have heard of the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST that John was Inspired to [PEN]? How can one limit the Doctrine of Christ to ANYTHING LESS THAN THE ETERNAL WORD OF GOD/CHRIST of Rev. 14:6?? Compare 2 Tim. 3:16-17 which I will also post below further down)

[10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

(That IS STATING a FACT. Some say do not run around the Word of God. These ones do so falsley & in Ignorance. For that is exactly how INSPIRATION has told us to get OFF OF THE MILK! But Let's post up 2 Tim. 3:16-17 & the Words OF CHRIST IN MATT. 4:4.

2 Tim. 3:
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

(OK: We are TOLD that we need ALL SCRIPTURE to [HAVE PROFITABLE DOCTRINE]. And that it IS THIS SCRIPTURE that will REPROVE & *CORRECT US!
Again, is that just for where it is found & to the person or persons that are mentioned? HARDLY!

[17] That theman of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

OK: Now for The WORD OF GOD, CHRIST HIMSELF, in Matt. 4:

[3] And when the tempter (devil) came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
(Christ was very hungry, he had just fasted 40 days and nights)

[4] But he (Christ) answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, [but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.]

(Did you get that?? And where was it written? And some think that this was just for satan, or the ones in Deut. 8:3??? One BEST REALIZE that the Word of God IS IMMORTAL, and extends into the created UNIVERSE!

And Deut. 8:3 needs a Christians REQUIRED ATTENTION if they are to be Faithful until the END! This is where Christ quoted His Eternal Words from: (He went 'running' around to the O.T. huh? as His Word in Tim. & Matt. 4:4 here DOCUMENTED that we haft to do!)

[3] And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might [make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live].

--Elijah

There, now you gent's can understand, huh?;)

 

[Scotth1960]

There, now you gent's can understand, huh?;)

Dear Elijah, No I still don't understand what you are saying. You quote various, apparently topically-unrelated Scriptures, with very little coherence and clarity in your citing of OT and NT. Remember, Scripture must be read in context. I fear maybe some of what you are quoting is quoted out of context, without harmonizing of the Scriptures together to make a coherent whole, a wholly-intelligible Gospel message. Not to be overly critical, but you remain incomprehensible. To me, at least. For what it's worth! God bless you. In Erie Scott