Being Born Again in the Image and Likeness of God.

[2Pillars]

The speculation and implication that Adam died Spiritually after the “original sin†would mean, the Invisible God Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, were in ERROR in creating Adam Spiritually to begin with but only to be pluck away from their hands by the old serpent. Such is not the case however.

Here's why:

There are THREE (numeric) that bear records in Heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one (unity). 1John 5:7

In order for one to die Spiritually, one must first be Born Spiritually.

"Let US create man in our image after our likeness" requires that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost operate in unity or agreement to make one a Spiritual Being.

This is confirmed by John 14:16-17 which shows that the agreement of "US" is necessary for a Spiritual Birth.

However, when Jesus formed of Adam from the dust of the ground becoming a natural living soul (flesh) Gen. 2:7 – that was not spiritual birth, since, Eve was not yet made from his ribs nor included the agreement of "US"on that particular time. Therefore, it would not harmonized or reconciled to Gen. 1:26 nor John 14:16-17.

This is confirmed in Paul’sa epistle, 1Corinthians 15:45-46

1 CORINTHIANS 15
v45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit

v46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Therefore, NOT everybody is created in the image and likeness of God, unless your born again spiritually.

Surely, Cain who was a murderer from the beginning and a liar was not created in the image or likeness of God. He was just a natural living soul without the Spirit of God.

In the day Adam & Eve were created in their image and likeness, Cain had already killed Abel.

Adam was physically FORMED/MADE on the 3rd Day (Gen. 2:7) and was Created spiritually in their image and likeness - together with Eve - on this present 6th Day (Gen.5:1-2; 1:27).


God Bless

 

[mutzrein]

Interesting. I dare say you are not going to be too popular with the 'church' saying stuff like this.

So what do you say happens to man who is not made in 'the image and likeness of God' when he dies?

 

[2Pillars]

Dear mutzrein,

Those who are NOT born again in the image and likeness of God, spiritually, will die as a natural man and cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

Learn the parable...

Matthew12
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43 When the UNCLEAN SPIRIT is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.


46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother


God Bless

 

[mutzrein]

Thanks for the reply 2Pillars

Ok bear with me please - I'm trying to get to terms with what you are saying. When you say the natural man will die and cannot enter the Kingdom of heaven, do you mean he just dies - no judgement, no heaven, no hell - he just returns to the dust from whence he was taken?

As far as the parable is concerned - how do you say this relates to the issue at hand coz I am finding it difficult to see the connection.

Cheers

 

[2Pillars]

Dear mutzrein,

No, I don't mean it that way. Those who were NOT born again in the image and likeness of God, spiritually, will face judgment according to their deeds upon resurrection.

Those who were born again spiritually are alive with Christ forever, since, their Spirit will return to God who gave it - upon their physical death.

The parable speaks of the wicked people of unclean spirits standing from without - outside the door - seeking for a rest inside the Kingdom of Heaven, but was denied and rejected.


God Bless

 

[mutzrein]

Thanks again 2Pillars

Mmmmmm OK. I don't have the same perspective on that parable but we can come back to that.

I take it that you accept that in order for man to see / enter the kingdom of God he must be born again - as Jesus said to Nicodemus.
Now if you do, what is the point of a 'judgement according to their deeds upon resurrection' for those who are not born again?

Regards

 

[Windozer]

In order for one to die Spiritually, one must first be Born Spiritually.

Adam and Eve were created (not born) in the image of God. And they were Spiritual because God in spiritual, and that is his image.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

:-?

 

[Bick]

The speculation and implication that Adam died Spiritually after the “original sin†would mean, the Invisible God Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, were in ERROR in creating Adam Spiritually to begin with but only to be pluck away from their hands by the old serpent. Such is not the case however.

Here's why:

There are THREE (numeric) that bear records in Heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one (unity). 1John 5:7

In order for one to die Spiritually, one must first be Born Spiritually.

"Let US create man in our image after our likeness" requires that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost operate in unity or agreement to make one a Spiritual Being.

This is confirmed by John 14:16-17 which shows that the agreement of "US" is necessary for a Spiritual Birth.

However, when Jesus formed of Adam from the dust of the ground becoming a natural living soul (flesh) Gen. 2:7 – that was not spiritual birth, since, Eve was not yet made from his ribs nor included the agreement of "US"on that particular time. Therefore, it would not harmonized or reconciled to Gen. 1:26 nor John 14:16-17.

This is confirmed in Paul’sa epistle, 1Corinthians 15:45-46

1 CORINTHIANS 15
v45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit

v46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Therefore, NOT everybody is created in the image and likeness of God, unless your born again spiritually.

Surely, Cain who was a murderer from the beginning and a liar was not created in the image or likeness of God. He was just a natural living soul without the Spirit of God.

In the day Adam & Eve were created in their image and likeness, Cain had already killed Abel.

Adam was physically FORMED/MADE on the 3rd Day (Gen. 2:7) and was Created spiritually in their image and likeness - together with Eve - on this present 6th Day (Gen.5:1-2; 1:27).


God Bless[/quote

From Bick:

2 Pillars: You are obviously knowledgeable of the Bible. Gen.2:7 AV, says "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul." Notice, it was not the Holy Spirit that entered him. Man's spirit is being formed within him, Zech.12:1, and is related to our breath: "All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, of all that was on the dry land died," Gen.7:22. Our spirit, our invisible life force, is formed as we continue breathing. It is not immortal, as if it were God's Spirit or Holy Spirit. Thus, when we breath out our last breath, we die, and our spirit returns to God who gave it.

Adam created 'in the image of God and after his likeness', to me, means he was intelligent, had a mind, must have been curious, no doubt was taught to speak the language God used, learned to know God as his creator and master (for a while). I'm not sure what you mean as 'spiritual'.

It is important to understand the warning God gave Adam, and what occurred when Adam disobeyed. Young's Literal Translation is one of the best, literal translations. From the YLT. Gen. 2:16-17, "And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat; and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it---dying thou dost die.' "

Adam and Eve didn't die that day, but the dying process started and Adam died 930 years later. It is true, a psychological change occurred in them, and a glow or a glory left them, for they knew they were naked. And being afraid they hid themselves.

While that close, wonderful fellowship with God was gone, God still communicated with them.

God was not surprised at Adam and Eve's disobedience. He put the tree of Knowledge in the midst of the garden; and He allowed Satan, the serpent, to tempt Eve. I understand that God knows all humanity will love and adore Him more as our Saviour, then, say, just as our Creator. And if He is our Saviour, we, humanity, have fallen and need to be saved.

I don't understand what John 14:16-17 have to do with a 'spiritual birth'.
And, what is your definition of 'spiritual birth'?

Soul is not flesh. The body is flesh. Soul is the consciousness, the feelings, the desires, produced by the breath of life vitalizing the body.

You are right, the creation of Adam was not a 'spiritual birth'. That is a phrase that is not biblical.
1 Cor.15:45-46 has nothing to do with 'spiritual birth'. Paul has been contrasting what a dead believer is, to what he will be when he is resurrected, vivified, at the catching away of the Church/Body of Christ. From the CV, "If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, 'became a living soul'; the last Adam a vivifying spirit. But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."

I disagree. Every human being, the offspring of Adam and Eve, are in the image of God, after His likeness. If you will do a word study of 'image' you will find it primarily means the 'shape', the 'form', as people worshipping an image or idol. But, according to the context it can mean more than just the form or shape. Such as Christ being 'the image of the invisible God'.

Where does it say Cain was a murderer from the beginning? And a liar? He and Able were fully grown when Cain became jealous and killed him.
Cain, like all humans, breathed the breath of the spirit of life.

Adam and Eve were created 'in the image of God after His likness', the moment they breathed their first breath. This was Day Six. What devised version are you reading to come up with that Day Three idea?

Bick. 2 Tim 2:15

 

[2Pillars]

Dear Bick,

Jesus Christ is the Image of the invisible God. Col. 1:15 In Him dwelleth ALL the fulness of the Godhead, Bodily. Col. 2:9 Jesus says "he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father" John 14:9

As you should be able to see, to be Created in God's Image, after His likeness -- who is a Spirit -- is to be Created in Christ, or born again, Spiritually. Adam was formed, Physically, on the 3rd Day, but was Created, Spiritually, in Christ, on the 6th Day.

When Jesus told Adam that he would surely die, In The Day, that he disobeyed, Adam had not yet been Created in the image and likeness of God, for Eve had not yet been formed. Adam did Not die either physically nor Spiritually within 24 Hours, but Adam did Die on the present 6th Creative Day -- which is TODAY in God's time -- just as Jesus told him he would.

Where does it say Cain was a murderer from the beginning? And a liar? He and Able were fully grown when Cain became jealous and killed him.

Are you saying Cain did not MURDER his brother Abel and did not lie to our Lord as documented in Gen. 4? Also, please explain why Jesus disagree with you (John 8:44).

Note: insertions are mine for clarity of thought.

JOHN 8
44 Ye are of your father (Cain) the devil (metaphor), and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a MURDERER from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Therefore, NOT everybody is created in the image and likeness of God, unless your born again spiritually.

Surely, Cain who was a murderer from the beginning and a liar was not created in the image or likeness of God. He was just a natural living soul without the Spirit of God.

In the day Adam & Eve were created in their image and likeness, Cain had already killed Abel.

Adam was physically FORMED/MADE on the 3rd Day (Gen. 2:7) and was Created spiritually in their image and likeness - together with Eve - on this present 6th Day (Gen.5:1-2; 1:27).

Cain, like all humans, breathed the breath of the spirit of life.

Adam and Eve were created 'in the image of God after His likness', the moment they breathed their first breath. This was Day Six. What devised version are you reading to come up with that Day Three idea?

WRONG! Your private interpretation is not supported by the Scripture.

The book of generations of Adam in the day they were created in the image and likeness of God does NOT include Cain. The next generation in his likeness was Seth. Genesis 5:1-3

The breath of life (Genesis 2:7) is different from the breath of spirit (John 20:22). This has been taken painstakenly on the other thread - "spirit in the bible" - and I don't want to repeat myself, unless you can support your speculation Scripturally without adding your own ASSUMPTION into it.


God Bless

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

8-)

 

[2Pillars]

Your false accusations are surpassed only by your ability to ambush someone you know nothing about. You think repeating a Lie will give it more credibility?

You also falsely assume that your way is better than God's. There are Christians and Tares in every denomination. Christians are those who have been born Spiritually. The rest are phonies like you.

Do you have anything to say or do you just wish to post ad hominems?

Oh I see, you're still very sour just because you were expose of your abysmal understanding of the Scripture on the other thread -- AFTER calling me a "nut" to begin with -- for posting what I believe to be the truth, correct?

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 1&start=15

See, next time don't try to be smart to those who differ in your belief and try to pretend to know more than your intellectual capacity can handle. Just an advise.

God Bless

 

[mutzrein]

2Pillars - don't concern yourself overly with what you see as personal attack. Better to turn the other cheek.

Anyway, my last post posed a question for you for which I am waiting a response. And forgive me if you answered it in the fracar that was your exchange with these others. I didn't want to wade through the mire.

Thanks

 

[2Pillars]

Thanks again 2Pillars

Mmmmmm OK. I don't have the same perspective on that parable but we can come back to that.

Dear mutzrein,

I am sorry. I did not mean to ignore your outstanding issue.

Anyway, one of my take on Matthew 12:41-45 parable is also basically paralel to Ecclesiastes 12:1-7 - Remembering thy Creator in the days of thy youth and repent your sins - while it is not yet too late.

I take it that you accept that in order for man to see / enter the kingdom of God he must be born again - as Jesus said to Nicodemus.
Now if you do, what is the point of a 'judgement according to their deeds upon resurrection' for those who are not born again?

Perhaps, you need to rephrase your question which seems contrary to your premise. It does not make sense to me, the way it was constructed. Thanks


God Bless

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

:bday:

 

[mutzrein]

Hi 2Pillars

If you can't understand what I am saying then my premise would appear to be different to yours alright. Mine is this - and its the way I read scripture.

Jesus said that the only way to enter the kingdom of heaven is to be born again. Therefore if one is not born again then they cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. This being the case, judgement would be of no effect since their good deeds could not earn a 'born-again' status. It is too late for that. Why judge if there is not going to be any outcome?

Is this not plain enough? Perhaps you need to explain your premise to me so I can better understand.

Thanks

 

[2Pillars]

Dear mutzrein,

I am sorry that I did not get your point the first time. However, now I see where you're getting at.

Look at all the denominations. If you look at Christianity as a big Pie, and see all the denominations as slices in the pie, you will find that God's Truth is in the whole pie, and that each slice teaches only part of God's Truth.

Why? Because ONLY those who have Faith, not knowledge, can enter the Kingdom of God. The complexity of views of the various denominations assure that we must come to God by Faith alone, no matter the denomination.

Christ is the most fair, COMPASSIONATE and MERCIFUL JUDGE that anyone can ask for. There are many people because of their upbringing have different perspectives of God and some don't even believe in Christianity.

However, that does not mean they are bad all together nor have not done good deeds to others. Certainly, most of them have FAITH in God of whom they were thought from the beginning, one way or another.

Having said that, this is what is written in the Scripture.

Romans 9:13-18
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Also consider what Jesus Christ preached in Matthew 5:1-11

I hope the above explanation will help you clear some of the issues you have.


God Bless

 

[mutzrein]

Dear mutzrein,

I am sorry that I did not get your point the first time. However, now I see where you're getting at.

Look at all the denominations. If you look at Christianity as a big Pie, and see all the denominations as slices in the pie, you will find that God's Truth is in the whole pie, and that each slice teaches only part of God's Truth.

Why? Because ONLY those who have Faith, not knowledge, can enter the Kingdom of God. The complexity of views of the various denominations assure that we must come to God by Faith alone, no matter the denomination.

Christ is the most fair, COMPASSIONATE and MERCIFUL JUDGE that anyone can ask for. There are many people because of their upbringing have different perspectives of God and some don't even believe in Christianity.

However, that does not mean they are bad all together nor have not done good deeds to others. Certainly, most of them have FAITH in God of whom they were thought from the beginning, one way or another.

Having said that, this is what is written in the Scripture.

Romans 9:13-18
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Also consider what Jesus Christ preached in Matthew 5:1-11

I hope the above explanation will help you clear some of the issues you have.


God Bless

Thanks again . . . but your explanation has not answered the 'issues' I have.

Actually I don't think I have any issues - I am looking for you to clarify your position on those who are not born again. And so far you haven't done that as far as I can see.

Yes I agree there are good people in all denominations. And yes I agree that God is righteous and He purposes to do His good will (in spite of us), and yes I agree the beatitudes are wonderful, and yes it is only by being born again that man can enter the kingdom of heaven, but as I said you have not answered the question I am putting to you. It seems as though you cannot reconcile how God would deal with such a person who is not born again – who perhaps is too young to understand, perhaps never heard the gospel or perhaps without sufficient mental capacity to respond to the gospel.

Now in one post you said, “ . . . Those who were NOT born again in the image and likeness of God, spiritually, will face judgment according to their deeds upon resurrection.â€Â

But as I said later, it is too late at judgement to be born again so why judge if there is not going to be any out come.

So, my friend, what do you say happens to those who are not born again?

Regards

 

[2Pillars]

Dear mutzrein,


I believe I have articulated and answered your question based on your premise. But if it is not to the satisfaction of your own religious ASSUMPTION, then, I cannot help you anymore.

However, whoever thought you that during process of judgment day, it is already too late for those who physically died and were not born again to justify themselves according to their deeds whether it be good or bad -- is abysmally ignorant of the Scripture.

As I have posted and you agreed, there are those who are not Christians because of their upbringing yet they have FAITH to the God of whom they were brought up to. It does not mean that they have not done good dees to others to justify themselves.

As I have also cited, it is the prerogative of the Lord to have Mercy to whom he will have Mercy - before passing his judgment, therefore, don’t take it away from him.

Here’s what happened in the past when Christ exercise his right to have MERCY on others and redeemed those he called who died before his own blood sacrifice, based on the Scripture.

1Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the SPIRIT IN PRISON;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the REDEMPTION of the transgressions that were UNDER THE FIRST TESTAMENT, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Do you see, the redemption given to the ones called that was under the First Testament -who were physically dead long time ago - contrary to your religious view? They did even heard the Gospel therefore, how can you take a position that’s it already too late for them to be redeemed?

Now, whether what' going to happen during this process of judgment day, others are forgiven, send to the pit or have their 2nd death, it is not for me to tell you. I leave the judgment to our Lord.


God Bless