Believing in Wrong Doctrine: Will I lose my salvation?

[williamt]

You have an incorrect idea of Catholicism.
It does NOT attribute salvation to the believer.
That church believes in Ephesians 2:8 just like we do.
Also Galatians 2:16
We are saved BY grace, THROUGH faith.
This is salvation...this is justification.
God does this,,,it is solely an act of God.

AFTER salvation, we are required to obey God.
To obey God means to follow His commandments...
we've come to call this works. Any good act we do is a good deed or a good work.

The N.T. tells us we are to obey God and do good deeds.

Colossians 3:23
John 14:23-24

You're using words that mean something quite different to others. For example Justification from a Catholic and Protestant perspective are different as is Sanctification.

If you're Catholic there's no sense going on in debate as we'll never agree on the meaning of these words.

Orthodox Protestant Theology follows the 5 Solae or five principles or mini creeds. From the Protestant Reformation Catholicism was deemed apostate.

Personally, I couldn't care what you believe. However, to suggest that theology doesn't matter, what I infer from your responses is to suggest that Orthodoxy doesn't matter.

I find it hilarious that people are in a Theology forum and yet haven't a clue about these terms or even Protestant theology.

I'm not being snarky, but it is rather amusing. It would be different if people were receptive to orthodox (true and correct) doctrine (teaching).

The OP asks whether doctrine matters for salvation. I say yes, you say no. No sense beating a dead horse.

Enjoy!

 

[GodsGrace]

A lot of people read 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 and do not read the entire context, " 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. "

This is really what it comes down to. Each theological camp applies different methods and principles for interpretation. Some isolate and disregard context. Others don't. And still some address any theological question systematically.

It's even more complicated than what you state, but that would be another thread.

IOW, WHOSE work is being burned up?
Each of us individually, or teachers or the Apostles?
See 1 Corinthians 3:8-9

 

[williamt]

It's even more complicated than what you state, but that would be another thread.

IOW, WHOSE work is being burned up?
Each of us individually, or teachers or the Apostles?
See 1 Corinthians 3:8-9

For another thread. What would be the basis of any works burnt up. There should be no question that the works are for reward and not salvation 1 Corinthians 3:15.

Enjoy!

 

[GodsGrace]

Soli Deo Gloria?

I don't understand...

So if I say we must obey God, this is NOT praising Him and worshipping Him and adoring Him??

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm comfortable to let your post stand as is. As an outsider reading in I'd think orthodox theology is meaningless. That's what I glean from your response.

Thanks for the welcome!

Orthodox only means what is accepted by the majority.
It's not a bad thing...


orthodox
/ˈɔːθədɒks/
adjective

1. 1.
   following or conforming to the traditional or generally accepted rules or beliefs of a religion, philosophy, or practice.
   "Burke's views were orthodox in his time"
   sinonimi:conservative, traditional, observant, conformist, devout, strict, true, true blue, of the faith, of the true faith
   "an orthodox Hindu"
   
   
2. 2.
   of the ordinary or usual type; normal.

 

[OzSpen]

Of course believers will persevere in the faith to the last day. John 6:44 No man can come to me (T) unless the Father (U) draws them to me (I) then I will raise them up (L) on the last day (P).

That is not an exegetical treatment of TULIP, which means:
T = Total depravity;
U = Unconditional election;
L = Limited atonement;
I = Irresistible grace;
P = Perseverance of the saints.

What have you made TULIP mean, on the basis of John 6:44?
T = No one can come to Jesus unless ...
U = the Father (draws?) ...
L = I will raise them up;
I = The Father drawing people;
P = On the last day.

This invention by you is a contortion of TULIP and of John 6:44.

I notice you didn't go on to quote John 12:32 (NIV), 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.’

Note: Jesus said, 'I ... will draw all people to myself'. He draws ALL but ALL don't come. Many reject. Why? God has given them the ability of contrary choice (free will). They can choose for or against Jesus' drawing power.

Salvation is strictly monergism.

That's Calvinism speaking and not the Bible. Scripture speaks of salvation being from the Lord, a gift of God (Eph 2:8-9).

Scripture also commands: 'And they said, “[You] believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household" (Acts 16:31 ESV).

Therefore, Scripture promotes God's gift of salvation but it will not happen to us until you/I believe in Jesus Christ alone. That makes salvation strictly synergism.

Synergism is God-centred salvation. See Arminius (and Arminians) on Monergism vs. Synergism.

Unfortunately, Calvinistic monergism often has misrepresented Arminian synergism. Arminians believe salvation is started and completed by God.

James/Jacobus Arminius wrote:

In this [fallen] state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace....

This grace . . . goes before, accompanies, and follows; it excites, assists, operates that we will, co-operates lest we will in vain. It averts temptations, assists and grants succour in the midst of temptations, sustains man against the flesh, the world, and Satan, and in this great contest grants to man the enjoyment of the victory....​

This grace commences salvation, promotes it, and perfects and consummates it. I confess that the mind of . . . a natural and carnal man is obscure and dark, that his affections are corrupt and inordinate, that his will is stubborn and disobedient, and that the man himself is dead in sins (Monergism, Synergism, and Arminianism),​

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

You're using words that mean something quite different to others. For example Justification from a Catholic and Protestant perspective are different as is Sanctification.

If you're Catholic there's no sense going on in debate as we'll never agree on the meaning of these words.

Orthodox Protestant Theology follows the 5 Solae or five principles or mini creeds. From the Protestant Reformation Catholicism was deemed apostate.

Personally, I couldn't care what you believe. However, to suggest that theology doesn't matter, what I infer from your responses is to suggest that Orthodoxy doesn't matter.

I find it hilarious that people are in a Theology forum and yet haven't a clue about these terms or even Protestant theology.

I'm not being snarky, but it is rather amusing. It would be different if people were receptive to orthodox (true and correct) doctrine (teaching).

The OP asks whether doctrine matters for salvation. I say yes, you say no. No sense beating a dead horse.

Enjoy!

Well, WT, why not let us in on what YOU know?
Would you care to explain the terms:

Justification
On-going Justification
Sanctification

Join in!!

 

[ezra]

wondering,

That's why I consider the language of OSAS to give a false impression of the biblical teaching.

OSAS, in my understanding, does not involve faith that endures to the end of life: 'But the one who endures to the end will be saved' (Matt 24:13 NLT).

Oz

osas eternal security are all in one.. in a nut shell no matter what you will still be saved preservernce of the saints is those who are truly saved will endure/stay with it . we take this subject and allow it to run like wildfire out of control 1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and "preserved" in Jesus Christ, and called:
Preserved
The second word is preserved. This word (tēréō) means to “keep an eye on, to take care of, to attend carefully, to guard like a warden watches over those prisoners under his care.”2 It implies watching closely, like a doting mother or a protective father does their young child. It’s the same Greek word used in verse 21 where the believer is to “keep (tēréō) yourself in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.” The implication is to not only “watch” or “carefully guard” but to also remain secure through obedience.

This promise is reflected in the prayer of Jesus in John 17:12 where He prays: “While I was in the world, I kept (tēréō) them in Your name.” And now, with Christ seated at the right hand of the Father (Eph. 1:20), He keeps us in Him through the Holy Spirit who now resides in each of us.
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
1 John 3:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 He that committeth ( practices} sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. so this osas /eternal security is not a license /excuse to sin.. i know a older couple they live together .if they got married he would lose his social security health insurance and couldn't afford his meds..
she is gen baptist adultery will keep you out of heaven even if saved. she said i hope i don't die and go to hell.. him he is southern Baptist even if in sin you still go to heaven.. practicing sin on a every day bases is not salvation. how ever we will fall short and sin this is where we have a advocate...i hope i have explained it clear enough using scripture

 

[OzSpen]

Hi TF,
I would have to say that biblical scholars/theologians ARE necessary.

wondering,

I agree with you 100%. We would not have sound English translations if it were not for linguistic scholars of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.

If you want to examine a poor translation, done by non-linguistic people, see the JW's 1961 edition of the New World Translation.

The biblical requirement for all Christians is that they be Bereans (Acts 17:11) in examining from Scripture what is taught from the pulpit, online, on this forum, and anywhere the Scriptures are examined and expounded.

Oz

 

[ezra]

Justification
On-going Justification
Sanctification

actually we are justified declared righteous just as we never sinned at the new birth
sanctification / set apart /made holy in a ongoing process . W.I.P

 

[williamt]

Well, WT, why not let us in on what YOU know?
Would you care to explain the terms:

Justification
On-going Justification
Sanctification

Join in!!

As I said, this is a futile effort. Catholicism appeals to the Catholic church as the sole interpreter. While Protestants appeal to Sola Scriptura.

That is not an exegetical treatment of TULIP, which means:
T = Total depravity;
U = Unconditional election;
L = Limited atonement;
I = Irresistible grace;
P = Perseverance of the saints.

What have you made TULIP mean, on the basis of John 6:44?
T = No one can come to Jesus unless ...
U = the Father (draws?) ...
L = I will raise them up;
I = The Father drawing people;
P = On the last day.

This invention by you is a contortion of TULIP and of John 6:44.

I notice you didn't go on to quote John 12:32 (NIV), 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.’

Note: Jesus said, 'I ... will draw all people to myself'. He draws ALL but ALL don't come. Many reject. Why? God has given them the ability of contrary choice (free will). They can choose for or against Jesus' drawing power.



That's Calvinism speaking and not the Bible. Scripture speaks of salvation being from the Lord, a gift of God (Eph 2:8-9).

Scripture also commands: 'And they said, “[You] believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household" (Acts 16:31 ESV).

Therefore, Scripture promotes God's gift of salvation but it will not happen to us until you/I believe in Jesus Christ alone. That makes salvation strictly synergism.

Synergism is God-centred salvation. See Arminius (and Arminians) on Monergism vs. Synergism.

Unfortunately, Calvinistic monergism often has misrepresented Arminian synergism. Arminians believe salvation is started and completed by God.

James/Jacobus Arminius wrote:

In this [fallen] state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace....​

​

This grace . . . goes before, accompanies, and follows; it excites, assists, operates that we will, co-operates lest we will in vain. It averts temptations, assists and grants succour in the midst of temptations, sustains man against the flesh, the world, and Satan, and in this great contest grants to man the enjoyment of the victory....​

This grace commences salvation, promotes it, and perfects and consummates it. I confess that the mind of . . . a natural and carnal man is obscure and dark, that his affections are corrupt and inordinate, that his will is stubborn and disobedient, and that the man himself is dead in sins (Monergism, Synergism, and Arminianism),​

Oz

Ah, that's it. Reformed is not "Calvinist strictly speaking. Reformed is an umbrella term that covers much more theology than simply Calvinism. And Calvinism is not only 5 points but rather the 5 points were direct responses to followers of Arminius.

You suggest that Calvinist misrepresent Arminians but I simply refer to the Synod of Dort, while Arminianism wasn't declared a heresy the Synod used familiar language to condemn it as conveying Pelagianism.

As for the rest of your post again, your use of Theological terminology in a theology board is wanting.

Enjoy.

 

[OzSpen]

Look, I don't care what you believe. All I am stating is that pure Protestant theology is strictly monergistic and not synergistic.

That is a Calvinistic view and it misrepresents synergism, as I've shown in my quotes from Jacobus Arminius in post #166.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Ah, that's it. Reformed is not "Calvinist strictly speaking. Reformed is an umbrella term that covers much more theology than simply Calvinism. And Calvinism is not only 5 points but rather the 5 points were direct responses to followers of Arminius.

You suggest that Calvinist misrepresent Arminians but I simply refer to the Synod of Dort, while Arminianism wasn't declared a heresy the Synod used familiar language to condemn it as conveying Pelagianism.

Enjoy.

williamt,

I am Reformed, a Reformed Arminian. How does that sit with you? I am not Pelagian or semi-Pelagian in my theology.

As for the rest of your post again, your use of Theological terminology in a theology board is wanting.

With respect. to accuse me that my 'use of theological terminology' on a theology board is wanting' is an inadequate reply theologically. You gave not one example of how my theology is 'wanting'.

Oz

 

[JLB]

you have to study the scriptures out we are no longer sinners but a new creation in Christ

Yes we are new creations in Christ.

Thank you Lord.


Now we have ability, through the grace of God, to do what we could not do, which is love God and love our neighbor.

Now we have God working in us, by His Spirit, to both desire and do His good pleasure.


However, we still must choose to live our lives by the desires of our new nature, empowered by the Spirit, rather than living our lives by the desires of of flesh.


For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:8


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-13

• if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

We must learn to invest ourselves in the things that benefit our new nature, as well as work together with the Spirit to mortify the deeds of our body, so that we are not living a life of hate towards God and towards His people.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-10



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

williamt,

I am Reformed, a Reformed Arminian. How does that sit with you? I am not Pelagian or semi-Pelagian in my theology.



With respect. to accuse me that my 'use of theological terminology' on a theology board is wanting' is an inadequate reply theologically. You gave not one example of how my theology is 'wanting'.

Oz

That's because williamt cannot.
Your posts are always very clear.
A member could always ask for clarification when necessary....

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes we are new creations in Christ.

Thank you Lord.


Now we have ability, through the grace of God, to do what we could not do, which is love God and love our neighbor.

Now we have God working in us, by His Spirit, to both desire and do His good pleasure.


However, we still must choose to live our lives by the desires of our new nature, empowered by the Spirit, rather than living our lives by the desires of of flesh.


For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:8


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-13

• if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

We must learn to invest ourselves in the things that benefit our new nature, as well as work together with the Spirit to mortify the deeds of our body, so that we are not living a life of hate towards God and towards His people.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-10

JLB

Hi JLB,
I don't really want to get into this, but we had a thread on this about two years ago. It was regarding whether or not we are "sinners".

I know we are a new creation in Christ...
I also know we still sin...no one is sinless.
So, are we still a sinner??

Or do you understand "sinner" to be those who follow the flesh and still live a LIFE of sin?

Is it wrong to say: God, forgive ME....a sinner... ??

 

[GodsGrace]

As I said, this is a futile effort. Catholicism appeals to the Catholic church as the sole interpreter. While Protestants appeal to Sola Scriptura.

Let's say I'm Catholic, for the sake of argument...
Do you not speak to Catholics??

What is "pure protestant theology"?

And, again, how would YOU explain:
Justification
Ongoing Justification
Sanctification

It would be nice for you to answer...it's a way of getting to know you.

 

[ezra]

So, are we still a sinner??

what does the Bible say?
1 John 3:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[JLB]

I know we are a new creation in Christ...
I also know we still sin...no one is sinless.
So, are we still a sinner??

Or do you understand "sinner" to be those who follow the flesh and still live a LIFE of sin?

Is it wrong to say: God, forgive ME....a sinner... ??

You are a saint.

Jesus is seperate from sinners.


For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26


Sheep that wander away and become lost are sinners, because they have seperated themselves from Him.


Those who are reconciled to Him are “just”.


A sinner must repent, turn back to Him and be reconciled, to return to being justified;
“Right with God”.



“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


When the sheep who became lost was with Him; among the 100, he was “just”.


When he became separated from Him, he became a sinner; unreconciled, unjust.



JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

Yes, I agree with you.
What we believe will be what we live.

If we believe we are to obey God, we'll do our best to do this. If we believe we don't have to obey God, we'll probably sin more and sadden our Lord,,,or even come to a point when salvation is in jeopardy.

For instance, the beatitudes in Mathew 5 tell us how Jesus would like us to be. We may not ever become this...but at least we'll make an effort. I do believe it's the effort that will count; I don't believe we will ever be perfect in this life.

i agree that if we think it is ok to sin we might sin more - but sin creates such terrible trouble for the sinner and his family that i doubt he could continue for long - imo his sin will create so much pain and chaos in his life that he will WANT to stop sinning

is there a scripture that says if we live a life of sin we will lose our salvation?

i know there is a scripture that says if the Holy Seed lives in us we will NOT continue to sin - that sounds like a given fact - IF the Holy Spirit lives in us (which only happens at salvation) we will NOT continue to sin - sounds like sin will be dealt with by the Holy Spirit - and that is a promise