Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatise

[gideon3213]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

Concerning the second part of the verse: When it states “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? “ he than lists a whole bunch of EXTERNAL THINGS! In other words, there is no external thing that can separate you from the love of Christ. But you, of your own free will can walk away from Him. He will not hold you against your will!

Please also note that sin is not mentioned in the list. There is a good reason, i.e. sin will separate you from God’s love.

On to the next passage.

Eph 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. NKJV

Now this passage says that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. What is the Holy Spirit of promise? According to the following passages, it is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 1:4-5 4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." NKJV

Acts 2:33-34 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. NKJV)

Now let us talk about seals for a moment. When we seal a letter, this seal can be opened with some steam. When Christ’s tomb was sealed, that seal was broken when the angle rolled it away. When cans are sealed in factories, that seal is broken with a can opener. When jars are sealed shut, the seal is broken by twisting the cap off. When letters were sealed in Jesus day; the seal was broken when the letter was opened and read. Do you see my point?
Seal’s can be broken. And the Seal of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit can be broken as well with your sin.

Now the word “guarantee” is a miss translation. The word in the Greek is:

NT:728
arrhabon (ar-hrab-ohn'); of Hebrew origin [OT:6162]; a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest:

KJV - earnest.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
In other words, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the down payment of our inheritance. It shows that God is interested in finishing the purchase at “the redemption of the purchased possession”(i.e. when we die, or Christ comes back for us. Which ever happens first.); provided that we finish the race that is set before us. It is not an absolute guarantee that you will make heaven. (Remember, this is Paul's teaching, and we have already established that Paul taught that a true believer can lose his salvation. So do you think that Paul would now write something contrary to what he has taught elsewhere? I think not!)

So then, the proper reading of the verse is: “sealed (which can be broken by you with sin) with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the down payment of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.” And we see that this verse has nothing to do with eternal security. It is simply telling us that God has a vested interest in us.

On to the next verse.

Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. NKJV


This verse is constantly taken out of context and given the meaning that since we are saved by grace through faith, and not of any works on our part; then our salvation is maintained through grace alone without works on our part, because works were not involved in the original saving of our souls

This is the most misunderstood passage in the bible. Many people interpret the word grace to mean that mercy is always given to them no matter what they do. Nothing could be farther from the truth!

The word grace in the greek means:

NT:5485 charis (khar'-ece); from NT:5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So another way to write this verse is ‘For by the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life you have been saved through faith…” thus what it is saying to us is that it is by Gods divine influence upon our hearts that we come to know Him. It is by His divine influence upon our hearts that He made us realize that he existed, it is by His influence upon our heart’s that He caused us to realize that he was a personnel god, that he has a moral law that He expects us to obey, and that we come to understand that we are in violation of that moral law. And that because we are in violation of that moral law we are condemned to Hell, etc. It is by His divine influence upon our hearts, and our proper responses to that influence that saves us. Every step of the salvation process that we take is the direct result of God’s divine influence upon our hearts!

Now when this verse says that it is ‘not of works, lest anyone should boast’ he is telling us that there is no amount of good works that you can do outside of the salvation process that you can do that will save you from hell. This is proven by the Pharisees who had a ton of good works; yet were not saved! You cannot say that if you are a good enough person God will let you into heaven because of your good works alone. You must come to God on HIS terms: not your own! In the Bible we have His terms spelled out for us. What Paul is talking about is that apart from the works of salvation (i.e. repentance, baptism, etc.) there is no other system of “works” that you can do to “earn” your salvation. Paul was speaking to people who thought that they did not need to go through the salvation process to be saved. All they needed to do was be a good person and they would go to heaven. Paul was showing them that they could not rely on there own works to get to heaven. They had to come to God on His terms, not there own terms. And once they came to God; they were then expected to walk in good works thereafter. Or else forfeit their salvation.

Well that conclude's my treatise on the doctrine of Forfeiture of salvation.

have a great day.

 

[cyberjosh]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

Gideon. I have a suggestion.

I'm not going to say I've never posted a long series of posts as you have here, but this looks too long for the average person to patiently read all the way through on a forum. Have you considered starting a blog on one of the many free blog sites that are on the internet? You could make this into a single long blog article and then make just one post pointing readers to the article to discuss instead of posting a dozen posts. Just an idea, but go with what is available to you I guess. ;)

 

[cyberjosh]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

That being said I have begun reading some of your posts and I can say that from one of your quotations that one of the main and important points on the two Hebrews passages about the first impressions it gives upon reading them is as was noted:

(1) Such is the sense which would strike the great mass of readers. Unless there were some theory to defend, the great body of readers of the New Testament would consider the expression used here as describing true Christians.
....
(1) It is the natural and obvious interpretation, such as would occur probably to ninety-nine readers in a hundred, if there were no theory to support, and no fear that it would conflict with some other doctrine.

This is ultimately what led me to abandon using scriptural gymnastics to twist the plain meaning of the text into something else. The Bible is meant to be clearly understood by all Christians and we should expect the Scriptural writers to say what they mean plainly and not mislead us with complicated ideas. So I would say that that is one of the most evident points to be made.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Sparkey]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

Let us now consider the subject of our next "treatise": How many times is the word "IF" used in the bible? First mention of the conditional comes to us from the Hebrew root word, "אם" found in fourth chapter of Genesis (quoted below).

A quick search (Using E-Sword) shows that our word "IF" is used:

• 1,673 time in the English Standard Version
• 1,588 times in the American Standard Version
• 1,670 times in the Modified King James Version

No agreement is valid unless it is binding on both parties. When we examine the deal between man and God His mercy is almost blinding, yet we can not become blinded to the fact that God loves Justice as we continue to trust Him. What is required of man? That we too love Mercy and Justice and that we walk with God. The Law is summed up, as we all know, in the two Great Commandments, that we Love God above all else and that we love each other as we love ourselves. The word "IF" is very small, in Hebrew, in Greek and in English. This small word has great impact.

Consider then, the first use of the conditional --> IF <-- from what God said to Cain, in the beginning,

"but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."
​

[Genesis 4:5-7 NKJV]

We can not actually examine every use of the word "IF". I do agree with Josh though, words (to have any meaning) must be taken at their face value. If is a conditional word, "Sing if you want to," or "Stay indoors if it rains," or "I'll go if you go." It can be used as a noun as well, a supposition showing uncertain possibility as in "The future is full of ifs. IF may present a condition, requirement, or stipulation: "There are too many ifs in his agreement."

Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. ... They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. ... Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.​

(1 John 2:15, 19, 24-25 KJV)

John, the Beloved writes with such clarity. His explanations never fail to simplify complex issues. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name" [John 1:12 KJV]

 

[gideon3213]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

Gideon. I have a suggestion.

I'm not going to say I've never posted a long series of posts as you have here, but this looks too long for the average person to patiently read all the way through on a forum. Have you considered starting a blog on one of the many free blog sites that are on the internet? You could make this into a single long blog article and then make just one post pointing readers to the article to discuss instead of posting a dozen posts. Just an idea, but go with what is available to you I guess. ;)

Thank you for the sugestion. I did not know before now that free blog sites existed. But I will check into them and see what I can do.

But concerning this particulare topic; It took me over ten years to put this study together. And it is a controversial subject to say the least. I am currently unemployed, and am looking for work. So I do not have time to have leangthy debates over a long period of time. So I just gave them all the facts at one time instead of doing so over a long period of time. Its long because the subject is not a simple one, but quit complex. I try to rightly divide the word of God, and I find that it is difficult to give a solid argument for a theological position in a 1000 words or less. But if someone is truly interested in the subject: they now have a solid study on the subject for their reveiw. It is my desire that they come to know the truth. As I believe that the doctrine of Eternal security, as it is currently taught, is harmful to people as it strips away from them a healthy fear of God, and leads them into a path of lukewarmness, apathy and indiferance to concerning bieng obediant to God. And many people will indeed go to Hell because of this false doctrine. Easy believism does not save anyone! It is my hope that people will take the time to read this, and then come to a true SAVING knowlege of God! I hope that it will motivate them to enter into a truly meaningful relationship with God where they are 100% sold out for Him! For this is what is reqired of us! (Remember the greatest command? you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your streangth. this command is a requirement of 100% commitment to God!)

Well, I hope that you have a great day!

God bless

 

[gideon3213]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

That being said I have begun reading some of your posts and I can say that from one of your quotations that one of the main and important points on the two Hebrews passages about the first impressions it gives upon reading them is as was noted:

(1) Such is the sense which would strike the great mass of readers. Unless there were some theory to defend, the great body of readers of the New Testament would consider the expression used here as describing true Christians.
....
(1) It is the natural and obvious interpretation, such as would occur probably to ninety-nine readers in a hundred, if there were no theory to support, and no fear that it would conflict with some other doctrine.

This is ultimately what led me to abandon using scriptural gymnastics to twist the plain meaning of the text into something else. The Bible is meant to be clearly understood by all Christians and we should expect the Scriptural writers to say what they mean plainly and not mislead us with complicated ideas. So I would say that that is one of the most evident points to be made.

God Bless,


~Josh

It was Peter who said that Paul spoke things that where hard to understand. The writers of the new testament give us many complicated ideas, but not for the purpose of misleading us; but rather to try to explain dificult things. The problem with interpretaion is that we have to try to discern what the writers meant when they wrote what they wrote. And that is why it is necessary to have greek and Hebrew dictionary's. and to learn about ancient jewish culture; for if we are going to properly understand what the writers of the bible taught: we must interpret their writtings from their cultural perspective; NOT ours! But I have now drifted into the area of harmanutics, and that is a different subject then what this tread is about. so I will stop for now.

Have a great day.

 

[gideon3213]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

Let us now consider the subject of our next "treatise": How many times is the word "IF" used in the bible? First mention of the conditional comes to us from the Hebrew root word, "אם" found in fourth chapter of Genesis (quoted below).


A quick search (Using E-Sword) shows that our word "IF" is used:

• 1,673 time in the English Standard Version
• 1,588 times in the American Standard Version
• 1,670 times in the Modified King James Version

No agreement is valid unless it is binding on both parties. When we examine the deal between man and God His mercy is almost blinding, yet we can not become blinded to the fact that God loves Justice as we continue to trust Him. What is required of man? That we too love Mercy and Justice and that we walk with God. The Law is summed up, as we all know, in the two Great Commandments, that we Love God above all else and that we love each other as we love ourselves. The word "IF" is very small, in Hebrew, in Greek and in English. This small word has great impact.

Consider then, the first use of the conditional --> IF <-- from what God said to Cain, in the beginning,

"but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."
​

[Genesis 4:5-7 NKJV]

We can not actually examine every use of the word "IF". I do agree with Josh though, words (to have any meaning) must be taken at their face value. If is a conditional word, "Sing if you want to," or "Stay indoors if it rains," or "I'll go if you go." It can be used as a noun as well, a supposition showing uncertain possibility as in "The future is full of ifs. IF may present a condition, requirement, or stipulation: "There are too many ifs in his agreement."

Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. ... They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. ... Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.
​

(1 John 2:15, 19, 24-25 KJV)

John, the Beloved writes with such clarity. His explanations never fail to simplify complex issues. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name" [John 1:12 KJV]

I agree that a contract is binding on both parties; but if one party does not live according to the agreemant, then the contract is nullified. Such is the case with Israel and the Palistinians: these two parties entered into a contract while Clinton was in office. (I believe it was called the 'oslo accords.') Israel kept its part of the contract; but Arrafat broke every single part of his side of the contract; thus nullifing it. That is why Israel refused to deal with Arrafat during his last years of power.

Now the contract that God has made with mankind is a non-negotionable contract! God is a dictator who has laid out His contract for us in the bible. We do not have any power to negotiate any part of this contract: we only have the abilty to read it, and enter into it. or to reject it. Either choice has eternal consequences.

Now the bible is a very complex book. It has a integrated message system that is complex. In order to properly understand any subject of the bible requires learning what each of the 66 books has to say on the subject and then putting alll of that information into a logical order. This is called 'rightly dividing the word of God'. False doctrines arrise and are maintained when people take just a few verses that deal with a topic, and reject what the rest of the scriptues say on that topic. And unfortunately, this is what is happening with the doctrine of eternal security. Thats one reason why I posted this treatise. Its time for the church to come to understand the contract that God has made with them to a far greater degree than what they currrently understand.

have a great day.

 

[cyberjosh]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

Thank you for the sugestion. I did not know before now that free blog sites existed. But I will check into them and see what I can do.

You might look at Blogspot or Wordpress, both of which are popular free blogs. I've thought of starting one before as well.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Deavonreye]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

Now the contract that God has made with mankind is a non-negotionable contract! God is a dictator who has laid out His contract for us in the bible. We do not have any power to negotiate any part of this contract: we only have the abilty to read it, and enter into it. or to reject it. Either choice has eternal consequences.

What a fascinating choice of words [and not just my added bolding].

 

[gideon3213]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

What a fascinating choice of words [and not just my added bolding].

I know that most people do not think about the fact that God is a dictator. But He most certainly is! Lets look at some facts. He decides who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. He has dictated to us the moral laws that He wants us to obey. He punishes us if we disobey them, and He blesses us if we obey them. He is the law giver, not us. We can not vote Him out of office: and we have no authority in how to tell Him to do anything. He does everting according to what HE wants to do: not according to what WE want him to do! these truths tell us that God is indeed a dictator! A loving dictator, but a dictator none the less!

have a great day

 

[gideon3213]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

You might look at Blogspot or Wordpress, both of which are popular free blogs. I've thought of starting one before as well.

God Bless,

~Josh

thank you for the info. have a great day

 

[Alabaster]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

God will do a lot of things He doesn't want to do also: namely giving vent to His massive wrath which He is storing up for a particular time, and also sending unbelievers He loves to the Lake of Fire because of THEIR own choices.

These are things He is sworn to do, as much as it will pain Him greatly---He upholds His own word.

 

[Deavonreye]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

Simply amazing some of the posts I read here. When I read it, I don't get a "loving feeling" at all. I see something quite malivolent and evil, to be honest. No one has giving me a reason to believe these actions something worth embracing. One can believe, because they choose to follow the orders of this "dictator", and say "amen" to those who the dictator sends to hell [yes, the dictator, not the person, because no one truly chooses hell with a sane mind], but just because an entity may have all the power, that doesn't automatically make its actions . . . moral/ethical. gideon3213 said it well, "He decides who will go to heaven and who will go to hell."

All of this is subject to an entity who remains silent. All of this is subject to the interpretations of people's knowledge of ancient works.

I am not sure why some non-christians choose to post on christian forums, but for me, having been in the religion for a large portion of my life, I have come to a place where I see such words as offensive, . . . and of course, I know many on here could care less about who they offend and would say that "it doesn't matter, you offend god". No one knows that. You can't know.

As per this post, . . . I have come to realize that my "faith", in my past, though it came from a sincere place in me, was not a true "faith". As I recall my past, I never felt anything other than me. So, realistically, I wasn't ever a believer, thus couldn't "forfeit" what I didn't possess. I suppose that IF someone actually DID have a true experience with god, perhaps they wouldn't think of forfeiting it. I have no way to answer that.

 

[gideon3213]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

Simply amazing some of the posts I read here. When I read it, I don't get a "loving feeling" at all. I see something quite malivolent and evil, to be honest. No one has giving me a reason to believe these actions something worth embracing. One can believe, because they choose to follow the orders of this "dictator", and say "amen" to those who the dictator sends to hell [yes, the dictator, not the person, because no one truly chooses hell with a sane mind], but just because an entity may have all the power, that doesn't automatically make its actions . . . moral/ethical. gideon3213 said it well, "He decides who will go to heaven and who will go to hell."

All of this is subject to an entity who remains silent. All of this is subject to the interpretations of people's knowledge of ancient works.


I am not sure why some non-christians choose to post on christian forums, but for me, having been in the religion for a large portion of my life, I have come to a place where I see such words as offensive, . . . and of course, I know many on here could care less about who they offend and would say that "it doesn't matter, you offend god". No one knows that. You can't know.

As per this post, . . . I have come to realize that my "faith", in my past, though it came from a sincere place in me, was not a true "faith". As I recall my past, I never felt anything other than me. So, realistically, I wasn't ever a believer, thus couldn't "forfeit" what I didn't possess. I suppose that IF someone actually DID have a true experience with god, perhaps they wouldn't think of forfeiting it. I have no way to answer that.

My friend, I appreciat your honesty. I am sorry that you have never experianced Gods love in your heart. and no it is not possible for you to forfiet what you never had!

I have had some rather powerful experiances whith God! His love has come into me with such intensity that I have blacked out; and when I woke up every cell of my body was filled with intense love! And to me, god is not silent! He talks to me all the time.

and the proof that heaven and hell exist is not limited to the bible. There are over 200 people who are alive today who have died, then got out of their bodies and gone to heaven or hell and then were resurrected and are now telling their stories. To me this is strong evidence that heaven and hell exist! check out this web site: The Truth About Hell God wants us to know about hell so that we will come to fear going their and repent of our sins and follow Him whole heartedly. The bible says that it is by the fear of the Lord that men depart from evil, and Jesus said that we are not to fear men who only can kill the body, but we are to fear Him who after he has killed has the power to cast you into Hell.

It is unfortunate that crhistiananity has lost its healthy fear of God. Because it is ensuring that they will be carnal and not spiritual.

I have posted a post called 'The true gospel of God' please read it because if you have never come to God on His terms, then that would explain why you have never felt Him in your heart. I guarantee that if you do the things that I have posted there, you will feel Gods love!

And you know something, its not your fault that no one ever told you the true gospel.

You said that you are feeling something 'malivolent and evil' what your feeling is normal, it is the conviction of the Holy Spirit warning you that you are in eminate danger of going to Hell. It is a necessary thing for you to feel this so that you will come to see your need to turn from your sins. and go through the salvatiion process. For if you do not become aware of the danger you are in; then you will not seek the savior that God has provided, and you will not see your need to repent, etc. The gospel is the bad news of sin and condemnation before it is the good news of forgiveness and redemption. I think that you might just now be entering onto the true road of salvation! Please read my post. here is the link:

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/true-gospel-god-32162/

have a great day

 

[Deavonreye]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

gideon, the "malevolent and evil" I was feeling comes from christianity, not me. Your depiction of "the dictator" was a chilling one, . . . not that I actually FEAR your god, . . . I don't, . . . but that people would be okay with it. As for "the fear of hell", . . . that type of fear can never really be something of true value. Fear of hell doesn't exist in me because it is a human construct created to illicit this fear in people to cause them to convert. 2

BTW, I have been exposed to the christian gospel message you spoke of.

 

[gideon3213]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

gideon, the "malevolent and evil" I was feeling comes from christianity, not me. Your depiction of "the dictator" was a chilling one, . . . not that I actually FEAR your god, . . . I don't, . . . but that people would be okay with it. As for "the fear of hell", . . . that type of fear can never really be something of true value. Fear of hell doesn't exist in me because it is a human construct created to illicit this fear in people to cause them to convert. 2

BTW, I have been exposed to the christian gospel message you spoke of.

Yes, God is a terror to those who are damned, as He is the enemy of those who will not obey Him. (2 Cor 2:15-17
5 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. 16 To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life. And who is sufficient for these things? 17 For we are not, as so many, peddling the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as from God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ. NKJV)


I am sorry that you will have to find out about the reality of Hell after you die; because there is ample evidence of It's existance for you to see right now. I gave you one link that would give you solid evidence of hell: i.e. a recording of millions of human voices screaming in hell. as well as other evidence. If you do a google check for 'negative nde's' you will find many testamonies from people who died and went to hell and came back to life. These should be convincing proof that Hell does indeed exist! But if you will not do the research, then you have already recieved all the warning that you will ever need to have escaped going to hell when you die from us. I am telling you that Hell is REAL! and if you fail to go through the salvation process, then you will go to Hell and suffer great torments there for all of eternity!

Now here is something else to think about. If I am wrong, and you go through the salvation process, you will not be harmed in any way whatsoever. But if I am right, and you fail to go through the salvation process, You will suffer throughout eternity! So, you have nothing to loose by going through the salvation process. But you risk great pain trhoughout all of eternity if you fail to go through it. Why take any chances? Here is the link to my post that will tell you the steps that are necessary for you to take in order to escape going to Hell through out all eternity.

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/true-gospel-god-32162/

have a great day

 

[littlelight]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

gideon3213

I agree that one can lose salvation but I can find evidence that the only reason is for ceasing to believe.

Gal 5:2-5
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
NKJV

John 15:6-7
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
NKJV

Becoming estranged from Jesus and fallen from grace means that the person no longer abides in Jesus. I have found no other time where Paul writes that any other sin causes one to fall from grace.

Matt 12:31-32
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

If every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven except (x). Then He describes a sin that cannot be forgiven. It seems obvious that the sin described must be = to x.

 

[Deavonreye]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

Yes, God is a terror to those who are damned, as He is the enemy of those who will not obey Him. (2 Cor 2:15-17
...16 To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life. ...I am sorry that you will have to find out about the reality of Hell after you die;

And it is this "scary imagery" that causes many to convert. How sincere can that really be? How can one truly "love" the entity that is threatening them with eternal torture?

There is no one in heaven telling me anything that is making me "obey or not".

because there is ample evidence of It's existance for you to see right now. ... i.e. a recording of millions of human voices screaming in hell. ... 'negative nde's' you will find many testamonies from people who died and went to hell and came back to life. These should be convincing proof that Hell does indeed exist!

There are plenty of "nde's" that have nothing to do with "heaven" or "hell". So, . . . . what?

Also, . . . I hope you know that the "recording of millions of voices in hell" . . . was a hoax.

Now here is something else to think about. If I am wrong, and you go through the salvation process, you will not be harmed in any way whatsoever. But if I am right, and you fail to go through the salvation process, You will suffer throughout eternity! So, you have nothing to loose by going through the salvation process. But you risk great pain trhoughout all of eternity if you fail to go through it. Why take any chances? Here is the link to my post that will tell you the steps that are necessary for you to take in order to escape going to Hell through out all eternity.

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/true-gospel-god-32162/

have a great day

Pascal's Wager actually works against you [or anyone else using it]. YOU could be wrong, and Allah or some other non-christian god may be the true one and you will have to stand before THEM to answer why you chose incorrectly. If it is Allah, you will find yourself in hell anyway. A person can "know that they know", . . . and still be wrong in the end. ANYONE can.

 

[Sparkey]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

Greetings Deavonrye,

My experience differs from what is being depicted here. Recently I've been praying (for instance) about getting victory over specific sin in my life. There are things that I do and I watch myself do that I don't like so I've been talking to God about it. Pestering Him, in a way.

"You hold resentment in your heart," is His reply.

"I do?"

There are old things that I've tucked away deep. Later that day I got a phone call from my sister. She was in a hurry and asked me to do her shopping for my grandsons and said that she'd send a check to cover the expense. I was angry but didn't admit it. I tried to make a joke to cover the anger but even after the short phone conversation ended my resentment toward my sister grew and grew. A replay of things I had buried years and years ago brought the hostility I had toward my lovely sister to a head.

Can one walk with a dictator in peace? This is not my experience but only that He is utterly different than me. You've heard, "My ways are higher than your ways..." They are. We are to love God above all and love our brother as we love ourselves. That was where God pointed, my failure to love others and I am striving to follow after Jesus to know how to do this well, to know how to please God. I want to become more like Him but have no clue how to get there from here.

The reply to my prayer about sin pointed to an area critical to my salvation. That I am not to harbor resentment toward those who have injured me. Jesus had repeatedly impressed the need for forgiveness on his disciples. That they were not to harbor resentment toward those who had injured them. His disciples understood but didn't understand the full impact of what they were being taught. Forgiveness in truth. They were to forgive even as much as they would forgive themselves. That wasn't an easy thing to get their minds around especially those who had been trained in the "eye for an eye" ways of Justice. "Yes, but how many times?" Peter asked, "Seven?" He probably thought that this was the upper limit of reasonable forbearance.

"Not seven times," Jesus replied, "But seventy times seven." Jesus taught this truth through a parable you've heard: A king had granted pardon for a large debt. The man was forgiven all. The man then found someone who was in debt to him personally (not to the king) and demanded prompt payment. The unforgiving servant had the other man thrown into debtor's prison. The King summoned the unforgiving servant back into his presence, revoked his pardon, and treated him as he had treated the other, "In anger his lord delivered him to the jailers till he should pay all his debt."

"So", said Jesus, "in this way will my heavenly Father deal with any of you if you do not forgive your brother or sister from your heart." Revoke a pardon once granted? God would not do such a thing, surely. Jesus said he would.

I don't believe because of Pascal's wager. I've been trained to value logic but oftentimes I'm not all that rational. Sequential, step-by-step thinking doesn't work for me because no matter how hard I try I miss stuff and continually fail to get the priorities right. That's why I need Him. He said that if I were to confess my sin (if I had a humble spirit) then He would be faithful and would cleanse me of my sin. He didn't leave it at that though but promised that he would purge me of all unrighteousness.

And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
[Hosea 2:19-20 KJV]​

I want to be betrothed to God in faithfulness.

 

[cyberjosh]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

gideon, the "malevolent and evil" I was feeling comes from christianity, not me. Your depiction of "the dictator" was a chilling one, . . . not that I actually FEAR your god, . . . I don't, . . . but that people would be okay with it.

It is interesting to watch this exchange because I understand the context of the Bible's representation of God from which gideon frames his attrubution of "dictator" to God's authority, and yet I also see where you are coming from with the idea of a dictator in your mind when he says it.

Let me put it another way, this is often a doctrine in Christianity which acknowleges God's sovereignty, therefore we regard God as Sovereign but not in any sense can He be associated with any earthly dictator which we may call to mind as an example from our own history. One thing that we can be sure of is that God is a King, a monarch of the Universe. Do not confuse this with the sense of "evil dictator" that we may have implicit in our common use of "dictator" today.

God clearly has what is called "dominion" over the earth. He very evidently in the Old Testament is constantly is refered to as a King. An interesting linguistic correlation in the Aramaic text of Daniel is that Jesus/The Son of Man and God are described as having and ruling over a "sholtan" or as we might understand it today a "sultan-ship" (a realm over which one rules) presenting the picture of a Persian Sultan (the Persians' official language was Aramaic - so this correlation and descriptive terminology alluding to God/Jesus as a "Sultan" in the Aramaic text of Daniel is to be expected). See the use/translation of the word in Daniel as dominion (meaning realm/kingdom/sultan-ship, and more broadly sovereignty) the nine times it occurs: NSN - Verse Display containing Strong's Number: 7985 - Sholtan (Aramaic) - Hebrew Lexicon.

The Strong's entry for this word is as follows:

sholtan (Aramaic):שלטן

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Definition[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]

1. dominion, sovereignty
   1. dominion, sovereignty
   2. realm

[/FONT]Notably speaking of Jesus (the Son of Man) it says, "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed." This surely pictures an absolute sovereign. Gideon was right though to note that our sovereign is a merciful one, although surely righteous in all His deeds and will judge unrighteousness.

So I hope you do not misunderstand what I believe Gideon was trying to convey about God's absolute sovereignty, although I in no wise acknowledge that God is as any earthly dictator - nor ever will be. God is Holy, set apart and completely seperate from any man who sets himself up as King. No one compares to Him and no one is more Just than God. In a sense, men have nothing on God.

God Bless,

~Josh